Ogden: Six years of mistakes, bad signings and wasted money. Last night was a positive step for Manchester United, but how have they fallen so far?

[simonhch]

Obviously a disaster from top to bottom. Always worth some context though. For the 850 that has gone out, around 350 has come back in. That’s an average Net spend of around 38.5m per transfer window for the last 13 windows since Fergie left. Or 84m net per season. It enough to build a top quality side obviously. But it’s not as ridiculously lavish as has been made out. The amount of money isn’t so much the issue, it’s more the way it’s been spent. Lots of knee jerk signings and no continuity of overall strategy. Woodward is undeniably the common factor here.

The main thing Solskjær has gotten right thus far is the quality of recruitment. Moving out players who are either not good enough, heart isn’t in it, need a fresh challenge or don’t fit the playing style; at the right pace. The three players he’s brought in are absolute quality. And I think if he’s given another couple of windows, the squad will look a lot, lot better.

We don’t have any choice right now but to commit to giving him two entire seasons to oversee the squad redevelopment. Even if results are patchy. The improvement of Rashford, McTominay and Fred under his coaching has been superb.

If we could add any three high profile signings right now, Koulibaly, Eriksen, and Sancho would be transformative for us and give us that necessary blend of experience.

But I would be equally excited to see some of the worlds rising talents come here instead. I think Sancho is a statement signing and should remain top priority, but Konate at CB is a player I like a lot. Werner as a rotational cf with Martial, who seems injury prone, and Kai Havertz is potentially a generational talent at #10. Emre Can for rotational midfield depth is another I think would be a decent replacement for Matic. If we play with a 2 behind a 10, mobility is key. Which is why Fred and McTominay looks so good together.

If we can get Eriksen for 25M in January, it’s a no brainer. One area I trust Solskjær implicitly with is eye for talent and recruitment.

 

[gica_7]

So, Woodward is even more delusional than I thought. No way we can compete when he makes all those critical decisions.

 

[Ban]

Let me guess, rehash of everything which has already been said about 100 times?

 

[Ban]

Things that people over at espn.com hate
1) Ronaldo
2) Mourinho
3) All italian clubs
4) Anything to do with Manchester United.

Also, feck Stevie Nicol.

Haven't all these discussions about our demise been done already? Woodward and the glazers are Grade A cnuts, and the FA should have blocked the takeover after all those mass protests, but the geezers didn't do anything. Fans are helpless in the modern game.

What's up with ESPN and United? I noticed that they love to write negative stuff about the club all the time.

 

[SteveW]

Obviously a disaster from top to bottom. Always worth some context though. For the 850 that has gone out, around 350 has come back in. That’s an average Net spend of around 38.5m per transfer window for the last 13 windows since Fergie left. Or 84m net per season. It enough to build a top quality side obviously. But it’s not as ridiculously lavish as has been made out. The amount of money isn’t so much the issue, it’s more the way it’s been spent. Lots of knee jerk signings and no continuity of overall strategy. Woodward is undeniably the common factor here.

The main thing Solskjær has gotten right thus far is the quality of recruitment. Moving out players who are either not good enough, heart isn’t in it, need a fresh challenge or don’t fit the playing style; at the right pace. The three players he’s brought in are absolute quality. And I think if he’s given another couple of windows, the squad will look a lot, lot better.

100% agree. Bad recruitment caused this mess. Good recruitment is the only way to fix it. 3 good signings out of 3 almost seems miraculous following the consistently disastrous signings of Moyes, LVG and Jose.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Yet another article stating the bleeding obvious. Bad decisions,bad recruitment etc blah blah blah.

Nothing that all of the good posters on the Caf have been saying for the last couple of years.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Things are looking positive and let's just release an article to remind everyone to be sad. God i hate some parts of the media...

I can see us winning the CL at some point and articles like these will still come out.

 

[lysglimt]

Too much is made of this; if you leave a job, are you responsible for the performance of your replacement? 6-7 years on?

Sir Alex wanted to retire, at some point the club should have started to prepare for the eventuality of your then 72-year old manager calling it quits. It's called a Key Man Risk and any business worth it salt should have had plans in the drawer.

No but if you look at the team Moyes took over - it was a bit like Liverpool in the late 80s. Very good, but too old. The entire core of the team Moyes took over was in the late 20s and early 30s. I am not excusing Moyes for his shocking tactics, but it was an awful job to take over.

 

[lysglimt]

I agree, add Haaland(19) and Williams(18) into the mix as well as a another young CM and a youngish CB and you got a spine that definitely has age and time on their side

Garner and Tuanzebe

 

[JohnnyKills]

Kick the ball off bayern player shins to win corners?! Amazing

Yeah that one stood out for me too. Incredible. How did we ever think he was the right man?

 

[SteveW]

No but if you look at the team Moyes took over - it was a bit like Liverpool in the late 80s. Very good, but too old. The entire core of the team Moyes took over was in the late 20s and early 30s. I am not excusing Moyes for his shocking tactics, but it was an awful job to take over.

He did so much wrong though. Vetoing a move for Thiago Alcantara before signing Felliani for the same position. Sacking all the coaches to bring in his own. It's hard to be sympathetic.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Never dawned on me about Kagawa and Mata. We bought a number 10, played him out wide then bought another and done exactly the same

This was all because of Barcelona IMO.

The way they used midfielders as wingers to control possession, this was the period of Tiki-Taka and teams were obsessed with copying their style.

We went from Nani / Valencia flying on the wings, to using Kagawa and Mata wide flanking Rooney. To help that, we had a midfield of Carrick and Fellaini.

Honestly you do have to question what was going on in that period, it's like people forgot that speed is actually very important.

 

[JPRouve]

Absolutely not.

But it doesn’t mean that SAF & Gill didn’t do a terrible job of the transition. Gill is especially at fault yet gets off scott free from our fans.

People are actually acting as if he was particularly good. He was in the best position to build a structure that would outlast SAF because he had the SAF security blanket, all our demise have been created under his watch. It's fair to blame Woodward for not fixing these issues since 2013 but it's not fair to pretend that they magically appeared in 2013. Every aspects of the club declined to a point of near obsolescence if we believe the various reports about the academy, the training center and the scouting department.

 

[theklr]

Game against Spur was not a pointer towards anything. We have not had any issues raising our games against most top clubs, it's the shitty attitude shown by the players against the lower teams that has been our downfall.

Thats a bit harsh.

Our squad composition is a big part of the reason, we dont have any creative players against low-blocks when Pogba's out.

Nor any meaningful impact subs (like Lukaku) who would suit those games.

The mentality you need for playing against those teams (where we are supposed to win and need to try and try again) i can agree need some work, an possibly OGS can be faulted for that as well (he wasnt a creative type).

But I have no doubt about the players desire to win.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Sure - I mean it's a long piece covering our decline since SAF's retirement and painstakingly goes into the mistakes during Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and Ole eras. It has nothing to do with one result, which albeit excellent doesn't mask how badly we're doing this year. It speaks about the structural issues that United have as an organization and its inability to move with the times. It gives some insights into Woodward, and how he's perceived by his peers, and then it makes the point that the choices of managers and the lack of a DOF have massively contributed to our downfall.

And the Emery comment is kind of a cheap shot; I mean Moyes took a team that finished 1st by +11 points and managed sixth, Emery took a fifth placed team and finished fifth (and made the EL final). It wasn't a perfect choice considering how the next season unfolded, but objectively speaking Arsenal did better with Emery than we did with Moyes and all the turds that followed him. Anyways, don't want to derail the thread on Emery / Arsenal.

Agree with most of your posts except that part. LVG and Mourinho and IMO Ole were not turds, what they are however is completely different types of managers with very different philosophies. The problem there was the club not having a clear idea of what type of football we wanted our players to play, that lead to disjointed player acquisitions that often times did not fit with the new manager, etc. Woodword is basically the main problem for not having a clear idea of what he wants United to be. It is for this reason that even if we do sack Ole, and we should not, we have to appoint a manager with a similar philosophy. Time will tell if Woodword has learned anything or not.

 

[AneRu]

I think that is part of our problem imo . We signed players suited to certain managers ideas and systems then when that manager left we are left with unwanted players because they had new ideas and systems . We need to start buying players for the style we want to play as a club and fit managers into our style .

I think that's a bit inaccurate, both LVG and Jose messed up their big signings. Look at how both Di Maria and Mkhitaryan were both off loaded by the managers that brought them in and how Jose wanted Pogba out too. Bottom line is we gave managers too much power over strategic decisions who were too rigid in their desires and how they related to players.

 

[arthurka]

Its fecking easy being a sports journalist this is absolutely nothing news.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Let me guess, rehash of everything which has already been said about 100 times?

Yep.

Pointless article.

 

[El Zoido]

The Moyes stuff really stood out, this was the biggest mistake. He quite obviously didn’t have a clue and was totally out of his depth. His tenure set us on a path we’ve not come back from. After everything we built over Fergie’s reign, we end up with the chuckle brothers Moyes and Woodward steering the club. It gets more depressing every time I think about it.

 

[El Zoido]

Its fecking easy being a sports journalist this is absolutely nothing news.

Some of it was new to me, plus it was quite a nice, concise overview/timeline of events. I found it to be a good read.

 

[romufc]

This is a good ready because it highlights that with all the managers we have had, Jose looked most likely to get most out the players but the 2 previous regimes were terrible.

Moyes - was out of his depth
LVG - He didn't understand the new breed of players and how to deal with them.
Jose - Was more frustrated he didnt get what he wanted

The positive on Ole is that it seems the players still like him, his training methods and still playing for him.

Behind the scenes, we are making changes to our transfer policy which could be a good thing in the long run.

However; in the short term we need to secure Champions League football at all costs.

 

[Bilbo]

Obviously a disaster from top to bottom. Always worth some context though. For the 850 that has gone out, around 350 has come back in. That’s an average Net spend of around 38.5m per transfer window for the last 13 windows since Fergie left. Or 84m net per season. It enough to build a top quality side obviously. But it’s not as ridiculously lavish as has been made out. The amount of money isn’t so much the issue, it’s more the way it’s been spent. Lots of knee jerk signings and no continuity of overall strategy. Woodward is undeniably the common factor here.

The main thing Solskjær has gotten right thus far is the quality of recruitment. Moving out players who are either not good enough, heart isn’t in it, need a fresh challenge or don’t fit the playing style; at the right pace. The three players he’s brought in are absolute quality. And I think if he’s given another couple of windows, the squad will look a lot, lot better.

We don’t have any choice right now but to commit to giving him two entire seasons to oversee the squad redevelopment. Even if results are patchy. The improvement of Rashford, McTominay and Fred under his coaching has been superb.

If we could add any three high profile signings right now, Koulibaly, Eriksen, and Sancho would be transformative for us and give us that necessary blend of experience.

But I would be equally excited to see some of the worlds rising talents come here instead. I think Sancho is a statement signing and should remain top priority, but Konate at CB is a player I like a lot. Werner as a rotational cf with Martial, who seems injury prone, and Kai Havertz is potentially a generational talent at #10. Emre Can for rotational midfield depth is another I think would be a decent replacement for Matic. If we play with a 2 behind a 10, mobility is key. Which is why Fred and McTominay looks so good together.

If we can get Eriksen for 25M in January, it’s a no brainer. One area I trust Solskjær implicitly with is eye for talent and recruitment.

Good post, but I disagree on Eriksen. Hes the right type of player, but he doesn't seem to want to play in the PL any more. It goes against the philosophy. Don't know much about the character of Havertz, but ability-wise he could be game-changer for us if we could get him.

 

[Bilbo]

Agree with most of your posts except that part. LVG and Mourinho and IMO Ole were not turds, what they are however is completely different types of managers with very different philosophies. The problem there was the club not having a clear idea of what type of football we wanted our players to play, that lead to disjointed player acquisitions that often times did not fit with the new manager, etc. Woodword is basically the main problem for not having a clear idea of what he wants United to be. It is for this reason that even if we do sack Ole, and we should not, we have to appoint a manager with a similar philosophy. Time will tell if Woodword has learned anything or not.

This is true, but its also fair to point out that it happens all the time. You can't always hire the same type of manager as the one you're replacing, sometimes something different is needed. Spurs have done just that, and Arsenal no doubt are about to do it too. Our appointments have all seemed sensible at the time.

It all comes down to recruitment. Ferguson would sign a player and most of time we'd think 'there's our left-back/right winger etc for the next 6 seasons' and most of the time we were right. We moved too far away from that. Short-term solutions, overpaid risks or just simply bad players. All of our summer signings under Ole have the old Ferguson feel about them - they will be here in 6 seasons. It would seem that we have learned our lessons in that respect. The next phase of recruitment is absolutely crucial for this club. Get it right and we will be back challenging for the lot in 2 years time.

 

[VP89]

Is it me or does Ogdens work always read like his opinion from watching games rather than actual substance of knowing what goes on behind the scenes?

 

[Withnail]

No but if you look at the team Moyes took over - it was a bit like Liverpool in the late 80s. Very good, but too old. The entire core of the team Moyes took over was in the late 20s and early 30s. I am not excusing Moyes for his shocking tactics, but it was an awful job to take over.

Yeah there's an argument for that but the right signings would have freshened the team up.

I mean if he hadn't vetoed Alacantara he probably would have lasted a bit longer.

I'd have taken a bit more Moyes if we'd have had Alacantara knocking around Old Trafford the last 6 years.

It must have been difficult dealing with Woodward though. You go in to discuss signings and he's filling you full of bull about deals for galacticos that he's no chance of getting done, but he's in charge so you believe him. Next thing transfer deadline day is fast approaching and you've got nothing but empty promises.

 

[Mb194dc]

Read this yesterday.

Basically the conclusion is it's as simple as Utd not having anyone in charge of the football side, who would have had a vision for what kind of team you were going to be and then put a strategy in place for how to fulfill it.

Total lack of strategy on the football side from Woodward and the Glazers. Instead a succession of managers with a scatter gun approach to buying players.

The football side still not being run properly, can see from the summer signings, letting Maguire and AWB sign new contracts 12 months prior, then paying far over the odds to what you would have done if they'd run down instead. Competent DOF would identify targets far in advance and then made sure you could get them at a reasonable price.

Ole is a step in the right direction, because at least he has the identity that made Utd successful under Ferguson. Still need someone to actually run the football side of the club though imo.

 

[tenpoless]

Is it me or does Ogdens work always read like his opinion from watching games rather than actual substance of knowing what goes on behind the scenes?

8/10 of "Football Journalism" these days.

 

[Offside]

Shit board + Wrong managers + Shit players. Seems a pretty decent cocktail for shit results.

 

[Mainoldo]

Some interesting quotes from the article

Says it all. You can tell Ed is not ruthless and let’s managers have a field day. Players too. I’d love to be at United; no pressure and amazing wages. Who wouldn’t want that.

 

[jackal&hyde]

This is true, but its also fair to point out that it happens all the time. You can't always hire the same type of manager as the one you're replacing, sometimes something different is needed. Spurs have done just that, and Arsenal no doubt are about to do it too. Our appointments have all seemed sensible at the time.

It all comes down to recruitment. Ferguson would sign a player and most of time we'd think 'there's our left-back/right winger etc for the next 6 seasons' and most of the time we were right. We moved too far away from that. Short-term solutions, overpaid risks or just simply bad players. All of our summer signings under Ole have the old Ferguson feel about them - they will be here in 6 seasons. It would seem that we have learned our lessons in that respect. The next phase of recruitment is absolutely crucial for this club. Get it right and we will be back challenging for the lot in 2 years time.

I agree recruitment is the main problem. I just think that when you have such drastic different approaches from managers it's a given that recruitment is going to be a big problem. One manager's players will not do for another. Case in point Mourinho and Ole, or Klopp's need to rebuild the squad with new recruits. Having a bit of continuity in philosophy is a good thing imo. Clubs like Ajax, Barcelona and United under SAF are the evidence. There is the alternative of Real Madrid and Chelsea but that requires that you spend a lot on ready made players and it's something that has not really worked out for us nor i think something most United fans enjoy.

 

[The_Order]

Caf told me that our current situation was all Ole's fault.

 

[Nickelodeon]

In my opinion, the biggest recruitment blunder isn't just about the players. The way we have overpaid for signings and undervalued for departures has positioned our club as a very wasteful and desperate one. Literally, every player is linked to us and we are also paying a Manchester United premium for every single one of our signings. Woodward has been an investment banker so one would expect him to at least carry some financial nous.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The part about Di Maria was interesting.

 

[Bilbo]

I agree recruitment is the main problem. I just think that when you have such drastic different approaches from managers it's a given that recruitment is going to be a big problem. One manager's players will not do for another. Case in point Mourinho and Ole, or Klopp's need to rebuild the squad with new recruits. Having a bit of continuity in philosophy is a good thing imo. Clubs like Ajax, Barcelona and United under SAF are the evidence. There is the alternative of Real Madrid and Chelsea but that requires that you spend a lot on ready made players and it's something that has not really worked out for us nor i thing something most United fans enjoy.

Oh I agree - I'm a big advocate for continuity. It'll be very interesting to see what Jose does with the squad at Tottenham and who he decides to bring in.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Too much is made of this; if you leave a job, are you responsible for the performance of your replacement? 6-7 years on?

Sir Alex wanted to retire, at some point the club should have started to prepare for the eventuality of your then 72-year old manager calling it quits. It's called a Key Man Risk and any business worth it salt should have had plans in the drawer.

Agreed.

 

[Bilbo]

In my opinion, the biggest recruitment blunder isn't just about the players. The way we have overpaid for signings and undervalued for departures has positioned our club as a very wasteful and desperate one. Literally, every player is linked to us and we are also paying a Manchester United premium for every single one of our signings. Woodward has been an investment banker so one would expect him to at least carry some financial nous.

He obviously does have financial nous. I can only imagine the murky world of football agents and transfers being what they are is not something that anyone can prepare themselves for. He's made some very bad mistakes

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Is it me or does Ogdens work always read like his opinion from watching games rather than actual substance of knowing what goes on behind the scenes?

No, that’s Ogden all over. More bait, no substance

 

[diarm]

Poor strategy, poor recruitment and poor management aside, it still boils my piss that feckers paid £100k a week to play football would get the hump over being told not to eat chips the night before a game or to read and take on board the odd email analysing their performances and areas for improvement.

Demonstrates a lack of professionalism and personal ownership of their own development, the results of which have been painfully obvious to anyone watching them on the pitch over the last 6 years.

 

[shahzy]

It's truly mad to read that.

That Moyes was naive enough to believe we'd just casually set up three football world shattering moves and he just had to say yes to one?!

If anything it shows what Moyes thought of United. He's a guy largely on the periphery that would expect a loss whenever playing United and in his mind he though United were that big and that strong that they could buy whoever they wanted from anyone. With that mentality he gets thrown the job and expects woodward to line up all 3 of those transfers like they were a given. Crazy what the world/moyes thought of us

 

[kopviolator]

There is nothing new in that article. He's repeating old news with an 'inside story' pretext