Carry on then. Apologies.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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Without getting into conversations about managers, think much of this rests on us filling big holes at cdm, cb and rw and arguably cf. as long as we have to play matic and expose ourselves or leave pogba on the bench to play mcfred, and shoehorn someone down the right hand side, we are going to lack those extra few yards.
Lets face it, if you went fifa style and stuck rice, kounde, sancho and Haaland into the mix in those positions we could easily win the league. Or, if Ole were to prove not good enough, get a different manager.
the issue is this: at City, Pep would go to the board and ask for 250 - 300 million quid to sign those players. This summer, Pep will just ask for a blank cheque to be made out for lauturo martinez and or whoever else he needs.
at man utd, the glazers will look at the hit to their dividend caused by that amount being amortised and say ‘no, because we have top 4 the money only goes up like 30 million quid if we push on to win anything. All out commercial deals will continue at top rate. You can have two balloons and a goldfish’.
until the Utd board step up or Pep leaves and they cant get as good a manager, i think that that gap is never going to be closed just based on money and players. They will just keep churning out 90plus points and we wont get up there.
no worries.
Each to their own, but as long as we climb up the league table i am much more happy with that than completely stagnating and win the odd cup here and there.
Also, about Joses second season, it was not really the point that De Gea saved our hides, but in that season we generally got more points than we deserved, where as in Joses first year we (if IRC) had a stupid amount of draws at home in games we really deserved to win. Also, getting bailed out by your attack is not quite the same as getting bailed out by your keeper
I never said they were mutually exclusive, but do you want to hit the reset button again if we dont get any silverware this year? In which case, who do you suggest we bring in who can guarantee it?
I am certain that the board will give Ole until he has that CB, DM, RW & ST he so desperately needs for the first XI, however because we aren't bankrolled by oil I wouldn't like to guess just how long that is going to take but this rebuild has certainly been delayed with the financial constraints of COVID.
I'd say we'd be more likely to find out Ole isn't good enough, simply because City will also have a very strong team - and a world class manager to give them that extra bit Fergie used to give us.
But what you are saying is we should give Ole the perfect squad. But no one has that and a top class manager - which is what we should aspire to have - can handle having less than a perfect team. I mean, Guardiola won his first title with City with Delph at left back, didn't he?
Well, surely the manager should be heading that galaxy of brains? Our late attempt for Dembele probably hints there was never an alternative. It was Sancho or bust. But, Telles was the alternative for Reguilon. And we did get Van De Beek.
It kind of reminds me of our summer with Moyes in 2013. He aimed very, very high, probably a little star studded after so many years at Everton, thinking United can get everyone, and ended up with Fellaini. If you aim for the the (awfully expensive) stars like Grealish and Sancho, and in a summer of Covid of all times, you can be burnt.
missing the point really. The rest of the team was double stacked. He had one make shift player at left back. Boohoo when you have prime aguero, KDB, Silva, Kompany etc.
no way out of it. We are 4 players short of a good enough first 11 to challenge for PL, CL. Regardless of manager. I am saying that we dont have a right winger. At all. We dont have a cdm who can play 30+ Games. At all. We dont have a good enough centre back next to maguire. We dont have a 25 goal plus striker. At all.
it just doesnt matter who manages us at the moment. The idea that any manager takes this current team to 90+ points is completely stupid, as are people who blame that on Ole. And We should give him a perfect squad yes. For two reasons -
a) I believe we will close the gap with him as manager and the right players to finish the job. This is the best shape our squad has been in since SAF retired.
b) Even if he is replaced it leaves a complete toolbox for the next manager to start with.
its quite honestly delusional for any fan to think that any manager is coming in here and doing much differently to what we are doing now. That a different manager wins the league with these 20 odd players.
@Jezpeza We've seen Liverpool reach that 90+ bar, two seasons in a row, despite having a less than perfect squad and team. So yes, it can be done, with a top manager.
I also don't believe, based on what I've seen so far, that Solskjaer would be able to do it even if given more tools. And if a perfect squad is what he needs, we might as well move on because he won't get it. We're competitive in the market, but we're not the biggest fish in terms of money. Plus, Covid is going to affect things. We're not going to be plugging all the holes this summer, especially if he continues to target expensive players.
So maybe, rather than a team that elevates the manager, we need a manager who elevates the team with tactics and shrewd signings.
I'm also not that keen on some of Solskjaer's buys. We do have an issue at CB, but for me Maguire is part of it and that won't be going away even if we do sign someone better alongside him (And the very fact we need someone to compensate for his weaknesses speaks volumes).
I also see Maguire - and possibly AWB - as flaws in the theory that at the very least Solskjaer will 'leave a complete toolbox'. They won't suit some managers at all.
I also don't believe, based on what I've seen so far, that Solskjaer would be able to do it even if given more tools. And if a perfect squad is what he needs, we might as well move on because he won't get it. We're competitive in the market, but we're not the biggest fish in terms of money. Plus, Covid is going to affect things. We're not going to be plugging all the holes this summer, especially if he continues to target expensive players.
So maybe, rather than a team that elevates the manager, we need a manager who elevates the team with tactics and shrewd signings.
I'm also not that keen on some of Solskjaer's buys. We do have an issue at CB, but for me Maguire is part of it and that won't be going away even if we do sign someone better alongside him (And the very fact we need someone to compensate for his weaknesses speaks volumes).
I also see Maguire - and possibly AWB - as flaws in the theory that at the very least Solskjaer will 'leave a complete toolbox'. They won't suit some managers at all.
Yeah City can sort our any slight squad issues they have by Pep just clicking his fingers and the board will deliver whatever he wants, unfortunately with us Ole has issues with the starting XI and like you say because those yankee leeches want their dividend he has to choose to address only one/two of them meaning the rest has to be put off for another summer window.
I don't think it's been like that in recent years at all.
Really? He's basically gone out and bought a whole new back 5 since Kompany left and Fernandinho looked like he might be getting on a bit.
are you trolling? Gross Theyve given him 739.55m since june 2016. Thats more than our entire squad is worth. We’ve had 517.73 since then. Thats before we start talking about how we have had to sell lukaku who we probably needed to keep, whereas theres no pressure on him to sell to buy whatsoever. Must also remember he inherited a squad containing david silva, kompany, fernandinho, aguero, KDB, otamendi and sterling, as well as other premier league winners such as clichy, kolarov, xabaleta, hart, sagna, nasri who he moved on and phased out.
Indeed, but those are no longer crazy spending spree and those players (Rodri, Dias, Cancelo, Ake) were spread over two trasnfer windows. It's hardly crazy. City's spending has lessened and there are deals they are simply walking away from rather than throw more money at them (like Sanchez or maybe Koulibaly).
216.93m. Thats a lot of money. And its not even all the players they have signed in those two windows. And their squad wasnt too shabby to begin with.
any and all arguments about citys spending not being insane are laughable
At least he's honest.
its stupid. You look at the ability and ages of their players. Most of them are going to be at these levels for at least the next 5 seasons.
Like a lot of pundits have said, they will be very difficult to dislodge because the manager is so good, the squad is so good and they are in a position where they just need a couple of signings every summer and have unlimited money. Like this summer, you can see them sending aguero and fernandinho out and having martinez and rice in without blinking. At the rate we are building our squad i predict its 3 seasons before we can finish within 10 points of them. Sorry to say but its true. The leagues over and its not even march.
City have spent insane money to build a s strong squad - and that has allowed them to spend less and in a more surgical way in recent years. I don't see the problem with that statement.
I was addressing Ole's progress not his job security as he isn't really anywhere close to the kind of criteria that traditionally gets managers sacked here. This season isn't really over and we might still win something this year. If we do go trophyless this year and next then I'd honestly rather give the job to even the tea lady before trying the same madness and expecting a different result, but we're a long way off from that happening
theres not really such a thing as less with them. As i said, aguero and fernandinho will leave in summer and blank cheques for a striker and cdm will be made out. If it costs them 200m no one there will care. Meanwhile we will be bartering people down to try and save £4m like we did with porto and Telles.
and people sit and whinge ‘sack Ole’ ‘get the big name manager in’. Like they didnt learn from LVG and JM. I think it all boils down to a stupid idea that a different manager will win everything.
Whats a new manager going to do with this squad? Still finish second or third unless the board spends £300m on players. We have gaping holes in the first 11. The only way to fill them is by buying or if youth come good.
i like the current project - the squad has a clear direction. I think we are playing better football. If the next few players come in slowly it will be frustrating but so be it. The last thing we need is some manager coming in and doing a trolley dash for a load of firewood like LVG did or buying players with one good season left in them in a bid for instant success like JM.
i think though, most fans and the board see that so theres no worries about Ole out.
Unless it's a special manager like Klopp or Pep I'd tend to agree that we should bide our time unless things get really catastrophic. Some on here and a friend of mine keep on raving about Nagelsmann being that special manager that we must not miss out on, now there are recent reports of him going to Spurs. The question is have our scouts stopped looking altogether and content with 2nd/3rd/4th for the next five or so years or does the club actually have ambition to win a title again.
i think the ambition is down to owners. I’m sure Ole would love a blank chequebook. The owners know whats needed to push us to compete but i dont think they are interested. Nagelsamann is an exciting young coach but the Bundesliga isnt as competitive and he isnt under pressure to do much there. They have a great scouting and academy setup there. But this summer they will be pillaged for those players.
think the issue with scouting for united is that if theres a player out there good enough to hit the ground running here they arent going to be much of a secret. There isnt a secret jadon sancho playing in the russian second division, i dont think scouting works like that. I kind of envy clubs like leicester who can sign prospects and develop them whilst finishing something like 9th and that not being a failure. I have been excited by our youth setup lately though - Mjebri, Shoretire, Hugill, Diallo, Laird, Mengi and co. Could be a real bright future there without any need to spend millions.
The biggest boon for them is that they can buy whoever they want at zero risk. £50m on AWB is a big risk for us. Some say he’s not good enough, and it’s irrelevant because we can’t just sell him or bench him and buy another £50m defender. Not easily. City can and have done this, multiple times. And they can continue to do so because they effectively have unlimited finances. I don’t see how any team can ever compete with this, it dwarfs the capabilities of other wealthy teams such as ourselves. Even Chelsea. People can point to the fact we’ve spent a lot, and we have, but we still have a ton of risk assessment behind every expenditure. If not we could end up like Barcelona are currently. City are financed on a whole other level, they could buy out the entire league for christs sake.
City have had tons of money before, but were never dominant. What took them to the next level was the addition of Guardiola's coaching. And still, with a more "human" budget, Liverpool matched them one season and took the title the next (when City's form dropped, admittedly, but Liverpool could have beaten prime City that season as well).
So as good as City are, they won't be as good every season from now on. It's also possible to match them. We may not have City's money, but we're one of very few clubs with good spending money. Add quality coaching and good planning to that, and I don't see why we can't compete. As good as City can be, they can't win more than 114 points.
When Arsenal and Wenger lifted the bar, we rose up to it. When Chelsea and Mourinho did it, we rose up to it. Now people are giving up.
Think it's because Guardiola's team seems even harder to get at than those first two title winning Mourinho teams, they have that combination of quality coaching but if there are any players that are surplus to requirements then no worries because can just go out and get someone better without any financial constraints.
Fine. But again, it doesn't mean they can't be matched on their great seasons - because Liverpool have done that. It doesn't mean they won't less seasons in which they are good but not great, like last season.
It does mean that they might like United's Ferguson - a dominant force regularly battling for titles and winning a lot. But they won't win everything, especially if teams around them do things well.
I totally agree with the sentiment that we can absolutely beat City. Even in their great seasons. We just have to be great as well!
But to do that, we need to give the manager time, and the resources/players needed for him to build a proper squad up for the challenge.
Both Pep and Klopp got both in their time as managers of their respective clubs.
Liverpool might not have had a perfect squad when they won the title, but it was damn near close to it, based on Klopps style and ambition. Sure, they could’ve upgraded a few players ability wise, but they may not have been upgrades due to other factors such as chemistry and how they fit in the system. What he did get is the players he wanted, seemingly all of them. The same with Pep.
If we go through yet another summer like last year, we can’t possibly be expected to fight for the title in my opinion. Not because Ole isn’t good enough, but because the spending and backing doesn’t match the ambition.
(And before anyone says “But Ole’s spent a lot already!”. Sure. That doesn’t really change anything. He needs to spend more, if we have any ambition at all. I think everyone and anyone can see that. And he deserves it. WE deserve it.)
Fair enough. Think we will just have to disagree on it
It would require time. It would require further signings. It would also require top level coaching. And while that's obviously subjective, I don't think we have that, so even given time and signings we'll continue to lack.
First, to get to 90+ you need to have a perfect team, luck, be injury free and luck with VAR and referees. I think that Liverpool 2 seasons were combination of that. There are lot of quality players in that team. Lot of quality players. It is not like Klopp was manager for 11 random guys.
Second, he needed time. Why didn't he won before? It took him 4 years to win something for Liverpool. He used those years to put pieces togather with buying players to get a very good quality team.
we can and have beat city. In a single game for sure. But notice in those games we dont ‘give them a game’. We set up defensively as an underdog and sprung counter attack etc. Thats fine. We could win a cup that way as well by beating them in a final or semi final.
the issue is, over a 38 game season you need to be best. And when you are short in the squad etc you lack that extra bit to win those games where a worse opponent frustrates you to a draw. We need that world class right winger. We need that high scoring centre forward. We need the cdm who can play alone so we can play pogba and bruno agaisnt a bottom 6 sides parked bus.
liverpool had a perfect first 11 for their system and stayed injury free. Once they had the injuries they didnt cope. I think if man city got Dias before last season they still would have got more points than Liverpool and Liverpool dont win the title. They left themselves with stones and otamendi after laporte got injured and it cost them big.
This is basically 100% what I said, or at least tried to say. I wasn’t talking about beating city in a game, I was talking about winning the league.
yeah i am agreeing with you. I also think that on oles spending, he has had 275m gross over 5 windows. Thats not a lot considering the amounts LVG and JM were given in consecutive summers. Only de gea, bailly, lindelof, shaw, matic, pogba, fred, mctominay, martial and rashford proved much use to him from what he inherited. Think he has worked wonders getting players out and in so far but the board do need to back him more.
I think he’s done wonders in that regard too, just afraid to say I think he’s done excellent because I can’t deal with the fallout from it
I think he’s done more than I expected when he took over that mess from Jose, people can look at stats or points totals and compare but the way I feel now about the team and a potential bright future is light years away from how I felt during moyes, LVG and mourhino and that’s on Ole. And as a fan I’m happy and greatful for that, now We need to win stuff to top it all off.
A perfect team for Klopp, developed by Klopp through improving existing players, shrewd signings of cheap players he developed, a couple of expensive additions and more than anything, fitting into a team. Not all of those 11 players are great, but they were made to look great. Nor did they have a deep squad full of quality. But with Klopp's system, they could miss several big players and put four past Barca.
I absolutely agree that any manager would need time, as you can't construct well oiled and drilled machines like City or Liverpool in a summer or a year. But time isn't something you just give to everyone, as most managers will never reach that level whether you give them a year or ten.
Klopp basically bought a new 11 bar Henderson, he didn’t turn the players he had into what he wanted. He needed time to build a team to play his football, no matter the price of the player he bought.
But he didn't go out and bought an expensive big name player for each position. Which is kind of what a lot of United supporters think we should do to 'complete' Solskjaer's work.
You said he made a perfect team developing his existing players, he didn’t. He needed to buy his own, and like I said no matter the price, they were good players who most would have here.
City have spent lots of money over an accumulation of different players. They backed out of buying Alexis, Maguire and Fred for financial reasons. They failed with bids for Koulabily / Kounde they've deemed Neves too expensive a few seasons ago. It's not like City don't have a sense of diligence to make sure the money isn't spent well.
I think Chelsea are more susceptible to paying ridiculous fee's for players as opposed to city even though they have spent less over the decade.
I think Chelsea are more susceptible to paying ridiculous fee's for players as opposed to city even though they have spent less over the decade.
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