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Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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So all in all, Solskjear hasn't actually improved any of the players, he's gave chances to certain players that Mourinho had pretty much shunned but we would be clutching at straws to who he has improved considering fans are saying we should get rid of most of the team, you got De Gea in his worst form, Rashford is struggling bad, Lingard looks even less effective than under Mourinho, martial just as patchy as he was under Mourinho, Lukaku still below average like he was in the first half of the season, Matic is back to his usual self, so aside from a brief honeymoon for a period of a few months it's the same old same old...
http://twitter.com/utdxtra/status/1122830186028859393
Basically it's been said so many times from so many different players and some of you still can't understand it. By saying players don't care or have drowned their tools w/e or Ole has "made them worse".
The change of style from LvG to Mourinho to now Ole is just been so drastic in terms of what's expected and required from the players. They need the pre season to adjust themselves and even the worst ones could improve then.
That being said, don't mean that we should shop for higher quality additions, just giving the context of things.
Basically it's been said so many times from so many different players and some of you still can't understand it. By saying players don't care or have drowned their tools w/e or Ole has "made them worse".
The change of style from LvG to Mourinho to now Ole is just been so drastic in terms of what's expected and required from the players. They need the pre season to adjust themselves and even the worst ones could improve then.
That being said, don't mean that we should shop for higher quality additions, just giving the context of things.
I am concerned, for sure, Ole' has all the backing and support from the Fan Base. But he knows that will only take him so far.... he has a huge job, and I just hope that he understands the scale of the work he has to put in place.
He could actually wipe the slate clean, and just build a team of players and a playing style in the traditions of United... good organisation, very hard working, never giving up, a sense of leadership and application (this has been lacking for years, and has been my biggest frustration... ), up for a real scrap, strong, strong mentally who know that they can compete and beat anyone, anywhere in the world (not saying they will, but players with a mentality that knows they can...).. a few players with genuine flair, imagination, match-winning capability, technical talent and class.. players that WANT to be watched by the world.
We have accumulated a set of players who are average, and lucky to be at the club... and simply cannot take the 'weight' of the shirt. Ole has to begin, begin a process of changing this. That, in my opinion, is his job.
Forget winning big titles with this squad. Build the team again.
He could actually wipe the slate clean, and just build a team of players and a playing style in the traditions of United... good organisation, very hard working, never giving up, a sense of leadership and application (this has been lacking for years, and has been my biggest frustration... ), up for a real scrap, strong, strong mentally who know that they can compete and beat anyone, anywhere in the world (not saying they will, but players with a mentality that knows they can...).. a few players with genuine flair, imagination, match-winning capability, technical talent and class.. players that WANT to be watched by the world.
We have accumulated a set of players who are average, and lucky to be at the club... and simply cannot take the 'weight' of the shirt. Ole has to begin, begin a process of changing this. That, in my opinion, is his job.
Forget winning big titles with this squad. Build the team again.
Or it's just an excuse why we are so shit. Remember how many times we said "next year we will be much better" ? It was never the case and it probably won't be this time as well.
You're the one who doesn't get it. The problem is we're not even seeing any change in style to warrant time to accustom for it. For me we're still playing exactly the same as we did in the previous 5 years. Compare this to any game of the first half of this season and good luck finding any glaring difference!
So these are just simply excuses for me.
Exactly. The real defitinion of madness is applied in every single one of our games. Pogba isn't that great in the air but I have no doubt his set piece deliveries are better than those two's
This a big part of the problem, we are going from different style to another with these different managers, it's been said a million times bu the fans but this kind of mess wouldn't happen if we had a technical director at the club and setting in stone the values of what we want this club to represent in terms of a philosophy on the pitch that is able to evolve rather the revolve.
Whats Ole's philosophy? We've made yet another mistake not having the structure and long term vision identified before he was appointed. The club starts talking to agents in Jan/Feb time re summer recruits we've long been told. I guess we have not done that yet due to circumstances. When you think about it...why would giving 250m to Ole to spend, be wise in his first summer! How about seeing how his first few purchases work out, letting him build credit etc. Don't get me wrong I'd rather a DoF etc but if we have to let him decide, why give him a blank cheque? Because we are in such dire straits we can't wait and must throw everything at it asap......On the face of it, most neutrals would suggest we show no signs of turning around the path this ship is on!
Sir Alex was given plenty of time - he had his supporters on the board who could see the work he was doing from the bottom up. Even though the press still like to run the story that it was Mark Robbins goal that saved Sir Alex, Charlton has said numerous times that his job was never seriously in doubt because they could see the progress being made behind the scenes.
I don't think the task is as big now as it was then but I do think the club structure needs to be modernised. If we can get an experienced Director of Football in asap then they can be responsible for transfers/club identity and it won't matter so much if Ole is unable to build on some of the things he has done this season.
Ole definitely deserves a chance as do many of his back room team / players to convert the unbeaten run into a more consistent run over an entire season. He showed quality to achieve that and his players showed a willingness to follow his instructions. Of course there were games - Spurs comes to mind - that we were lucky to win but you make your own luck.
I don't think the task is as big now as it was then but I do think the club structure needs to be modernised. If we can get an experienced Director of Football in asap then they can be responsible for transfers/club identity and it won't matter so much if Ole is unable to build on some of the things he has done this season.
Ole definitely deserves a chance as do many of his back room team / players to convert the unbeaten run into a more consistent run over an entire season. He showed quality to achieve that and his players showed a willingness to follow his instructions. Of course there were games - Spurs comes to mind - that we were lucky to win but you make your own luck.
Ole's plan is to add fit, younger and hungry quality players within the squad. Play reacting football, with pressing forwards and balanced midfield.
That's one answer, but the other is to find a manager that you can stick with for many years, in which case you aren't moving from style to style and therefore don't need a DoF.
Spurs had a DoF, now we don't.
Yes your right let’s go for one with vast experience...oh or one with a proven track record of winning trophies ......oh hang on tried both those ... at least Ole understands what the club is all about none of our last 3 had that
We need someone to change this club. Clearly the club was doing a lot of things wrong when everything collapsed just because Sir Alex retired.
Yes his early games were pretty much the old Fergie's United but currently and 5 months in his reign there's hardly anything close to what we played in his early games. We're back to being as shite as we were previously in those last 5 years. There's no style applied on the pitch the last 1 or 2 months to say we're changing to it. These great games feel like ages ago.
TBF both LVG and Mourinho also got their period of great results and performance before returning to shite so this might have been another false down.
Hehe.
This surprises you ?
It’s the same players !!!
of course they are playing the same , they don’t care there attitude and work rates stinks and the majority are just not good enough they downed tools for jose and after a very short revival they have done the same with Ole , this bunch would so the same for whoever we bring in.
A major clearout of the parasites is the only way the club will improve
I don't disagree about the players being the major part of the problem for the current and any upcoming manager, though there're several worrying things starting to appear for Ole too, like his subs and in game management starting to look bizarre.
But I agree on general point that we need to get rid of the prima donnas and mercenaries filling the club.
Actually 2/3 of our last managers had good CVs and experience of winning trophies. Both of those managers won trophies, even though they failed later on.
Moyes had the worst CV and got the worst results.
Seems a bit silly to suggest that we should go with a manager with a bad CV because the managers we hired who had good CVs failed.
I think everyone is hoping for Ole to succeed, but I also believe that we have a right to be sceptic of his appointment. Especially the timing of his appointment, and the way the team has been playing lately.
Read what you said in the post before you go on your usual, tedious diatribes. You literally said there's been no change in style of play, in response to someone who said that there had been a change but that he's had to revert back because of fitness issues. We literally went from the one of the most physically inactive teams in the league to one of the most active in the space of a week when Ole came in. That was in no way sustainable and it was obvious the players were going to hit the wall. Klopp had the same issues in his first season (and he started three months before Ole did in the corresponding point of the season). Guess where that genius ended up finishing in the league that season? 8th. fecking 8th.
And you and your ilk are complaining about Ole picking up a broken team who were more likely to finish below Wolves and West Ham at the point of the season he came in, and almost singlehandedly getting them in to the top 4 discussion and because he didn't get top 4 you now want him gone? Seriously? Get to feck, and don't let the door hit you on your way out.
I'll save you that then and won't even read the rest of the post.
It’s perfectly reasonable to say Ole has not done a good job recently and there is good reason to worry. Doesn’t mean he should be sacked tomorrow though but it does mean we have to face reality and if things don’t Improve drastically next season, we should not be afraid to sack him if needed.
If Ole is to succeed, he needs to get a world class no.2 with no links to the club. A guy with a modern footballing brain. It could be trouble if he doesn't. Carrick is not experienced enough.
What about that long haired bloke who assisted Klopp since Dortmund days?
Wouldn't it would be easier to just hire this world class fella with modern footballing brain as a manager?
Not necessarily. Having a quality no.2 would make all the difference. Sorry but a combo of Ole and Carrick is to risky. Who does Ole turn to when we are lost tactically?
Someone who has similar experience managing in the premier league as Ole - Phelan
Yeah, exactly.
You need to know when it's necessary to let go.
I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think every single player currently on our books deserves to be there next season, because - hey - "I believe in you if you believe in me"?
This isn't a fecking hippie commune.
100%. He needs a number two that is tactically astute and can implement attacking football.
I said many times and repeat again - we need a whole new set of coaching staff. Modern young professionals who are hungry, open to new ideas and trends, have good knowledge of sports science and psychology. New analysts, new physios, new coaches (including a GK coach), probably a couple of new psychologists would do no harm either. Also, we need someone great for our under 23s as well.
You'd think...
But... what if we made Doris the tea lady our first choice CF, because 'history', and she literally 'knows the club inside out' and 'gets Man Utd', and then surrounded her the finest footballers on Earth to help her...?
Obviously we can't judge her until she's had an entire season...
We've tried buying expensive strikers - Rom, RvP, Rooney, Falcao, Sanchez etc - and look where we are, so obviously Doris is the only option left.
If not Doris then who else even is there? All the other World Class CFs are already at clubs!
I keep seeing people coming up with the Klopp vs Ole's 1st season comparison a lot, it's misleading as Klopp played more games(16 more), with a totally different squad quality.
Ole has a win rate of 49%, while klopp had 44%, let's not forget that Ole inherited a champion's league squad that finished second the previous year, while Klopp got a Europa League one.
Klopp starting eleven for his first league game was as follow:
Mignolet, Clyne, Sakho, Moreno, Skrtel, Leiva, Can, Lallana, Milner, Coutiho, Origi .
Bench: Joe Allen, Randall, Teixeira, Sinclair, ibe, Toure.
it was pretty much his squad the whole season along with the likes of Henderson, Firmino and Sturridge.
Ole starting eleven for his first league game:
DDG, Jones, Lindelof,Young, Shaw, Pogba, Matic, Herrera, Lingard, Rashford, Martial.
Bench: Fred, Mata, Felliani, Dalot, Pereira.
From Klopp's 2015/2016 team only Firmino, Coutinho and Can and maybe Henderson can make Utd current first 11 and that's very debatable, Klopp had a poor mid-table team(Benteke, Borini, Jose Enrique and Balotelli were still in it).
My other point is that Klopp pedigree is higher than Ole (Won two Bundesliga, one cup, made a CL final and was behind the progression of a few world class talents with Dortmund before coming to Liverpool) not to mention he made two finals his first season with a poor squad.
Finally you can't really compare the two as Klopp came in as a permanent manager with a long term plan already in mind, the type that you don't have when you are appointed as a caretaker manager, with a temporary job all you have in your mind is getting the club back on track with a few nice results, he must told himself : "well I'm here for 7 months , no pressure , let's enjoy my spell ", becoming permanent is a whole different story, with a different level of pressure on your shoulders.
I was digging deep into this comparison and I find it very misleading taking into account the above, but I do understand it gives us a certain sense of security and belief , mind you klopp still didn't win a thing as we speak (despite making 3 finals and challenging for the league this year).
Ole has a win rate of 49%, while klopp had 44%, let's not forget that Ole inherited a champion's league squad that finished second the previous year, while Klopp got a Europa League one.
Klopp starting eleven for his first league game was as follow:
Mignolet, Clyne, Sakho, Moreno, Skrtel, Leiva, Can, Lallana, Milner, Coutiho, Origi .
Bench: Joe Allen, Randall, Teixeira, Sinclair, ibe, Toure.
it was pretty much his squad the whole season along with the likes of Henderson, Firmino and Sturridge.
Ole starting eleven for his first league game:
DDG, Jones, Lindelof,Young, Shaw, Pogba, Matic, Herrera, Lingard, Rashford, Martial.
Bench: Fred, Mata, Felliani, Dalot, Pereira.
From Klopp's 2015/2016 team only Firmino, Coutinho and Can and maybe Henderson can make Utd current first 11 and that's very debatable, Klopp had a poor mid-table team(Benteke, Borini, Jose Enrique and Balotelli were still in it).
My other point is that Klopp pedigree is higher than Ole (Won two Bundesliga, one cup, made a CL final and was behind the progression of a few world class talents with Dortmund before coming to Liverpool) not to mention he made two finals his first season with a poor squad.
Finally you can't really compare the two as Klopp came in as a permanent manager with a long term plan already in mind, the type that you don't have when you are appointed as a caretaker manager, with a temporary job all you have in your mind is getting the club back on track with a few nice results, he must told himself : "well I'm here for 7 months , no pressure , let's enjoy my spell ", becoming permanent is a whole different story, with a different level of pressure on your shoulders.
I was digging deep into this comparison and I find it very misleading taking into account the above, but I do understand it gives us a certain sense of security and belief , mind you klopp still didn't win a thing as we speak (despite making 3 finals and challenging for the league this year).
This is not Doris the tea lady's team. Cant possibly know if she is a good manager or not. Only by allowing her to buy a whole new squad and entrusting her with at least 500 million minimum will we truly know for sure that she really is crap.
Can’t argue that i’m not worried. Problem I have is the longer Ole has had to work with this squad, get his ideas and tactics across etc, the worse we seem to have become. First few matches were brilliant, but that didn’t come down to his style or tactics, he hadn’t time to address that. I just think he let the players, who were fed up with Jose, off the leash and express themselves and got a bit lucky at times. I can’t see any progression or tactical astuteness since.
I was in the Poch camp, can’t deny it, but the Board has decided to go with Ole so i’ll back him all the way. Hope he gets things right in the summer - if backed by the owners, who I think will do so. We need a massive re-haul of the squad over the next two years, just hope he’s up to it.
I was in the Poch camp, can’t deny it, but the Board has decided to go with Ole so i’ll back him all the way. Hope he gets things right in the summer - if backed by the owners, who I think will do so. We need a massive re-haul of the squad over the next two years, just hope he’s up to it.
Does that not point to it being the players, then?
The players just didn't have the fitness to sustain what we saw in the first 10 games. A good pre-season and we'll be better prepared for the rigours of a new season.
Mark Ogden made a good point on the UWS podcast with Andy Mitten about Ole needing to find the 'Carlos Queiroz' of today to help him. Ole really should try and bring in someone who has the experience and nous tactically to help him. Our coaching staff are just not experienced enough for a club of our standing.
Mark Ogden made a good point on the UWS podcast with Andy Mitten about Ole needing to find the 'Carlos Queiroz' of today to help him. Ole really should try and bring in someone who has the experience and nous tactically to help him. Our coaching staff are just not experienced enough for a club of our standing.
Said that many times. If you notice, Carrick is never seen on the sidelines since our poor form. Before hand he was there giving out instructions when it was easier to do so. Another thing I have noticed is that a lot of conversations between all the coaches in-game has suddenly just disappeared. Is that a sign of no idea how to change things!
People rave about Mike Phelan a lot on this forum. But of what I remember, the football was not that great when he was SAF'S no.2. We showed fight and desire, and Robin van Persie was probably the only player who showed true world class pedigree that season.
If they are showing 90 mins of the bench, then you can at least make something out if it. When the entire game is showed with barely seconds of bench, how can anyone make any conclusions from that?
From what i've heard, Carrick is learning from McKenna and Phelan wasn't anything special regards coaching. Even someone like Walter Smith who was Fergie's no2 temporarily would be good.
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