Enigma_87
You know who
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2008
- Messages
- 27,654
"We lose money on every sale, but make it up in volume".Apparently being shite in the short term is good for the long term.
"We lose money on every sale, but make it up in volume".Apparently being shite in the short term is good for the long term.
Really happy to see these types of mind.No, because of your reply. I notice how you ignored Ron Atkinson. Fergie took years to create his dominating sides, he almost got the sack too. As I said before, United do not have a god given right to win. All I ask is they challenge and do so with style and commitment. Your comments disregard the history and ethos of this club as it has always built rather than bought. Mourinho and LvG were two of the greatest managers in the world and where did they get us?
Ole may not be the best but he has a true love for this club and he should be given a fair chance. So far he has massively improved the defence, bought three very exciting players and he has got rid of some overpriced dead wood in Lukaku and Sanchez. He's also giving the youngsters a chance and trying to get United back playing a fast attacking style. The trouble is the modern football fans want to see galacticos, £100m transfers for every position and to win at all costs, they don't afford time and expect it all instantly. Yes I agree Ole is inexperienced and yes I agree he's making mistakes BUT his ethos is spot on and I can see what he's trying to do. He knows and loves United and knows how the club should be run and how the football should be played. The disrespect Ole gets is disgusting imho. Personally though I wish he hadn't taken the job as his legacy could be tarnished and he doesn't deserve that.
Because 4 in 22 since that PSG game is a weird, made us criteria that doesn't have any relevance other than to the Ole Out Agenda?Why does he still have a job?
No matter which way you look at it he has a terrible record.Because 4 in 22 since that PSG game is a weird, made us criteria that doesn't have any relevance other than to the Ole Out Agenda?
It's not a good record but any employer making up goalposts to judge performance on wouldn't get very far.No matter which way you look at it he has a terrible record.
His overall win rate including the honeymoon period with all its wins is a grand total of 46.3% in 41 games, the worst out of all post SAF United managers.It's not a good record but any employer making up goalposts to judge performance on wouldn't get very far.
You can either judge his entire interim and permanent tenure or this season alone. Anything else is cherry picking.
I just typed out an overly long personal analysis of how I think we are intending to play (current injuries considered)...Please describe what this method of play is and then also describe how he has backed this up with his team selections. Including what his method is when we are not the underdog team that can play on the counter and why when Pogba was injured Matic played and why Mata/Pereira have been playing RW
I'm actually interested hence why I asked.I just typed out an overly long personal analysis of how I think we are intending to play (current injuries considered)...
Then I realised that you won't care enough to read it, and neither would I.
But people on here wish to believe that the combined Footballing knowledge of Ole, Mckenna, Carrick, Phelan and Demspey equates to nothing. Theyre just rolling dice to decide team selections and telling the squad its about taking part that counts?
Once we get a full strength squad back, you'll see the mood change here.
No I realised that I don't have a Pro License to back up my anaylsis, so I'm essentially becoming the 'armchair tactian' that I was moaning about.I'm actually interested hence why I asked.
Look you can decide you know what people are thinking if you want, but its clear to me that is it not easy to decipher they way we are attempting to play from pre season, then going into the season (without any injuries) then also playing without Pogba and now with a lot of injuries.
Also regarding the combined football knowledge, many clubs have people with football experience which fail to implement their plan.
Anyway I suspect you also find it difficult to decipher hence why you didn't bother posting the answer to the question you were clearly asked.
Every person replying in this thread (and the forum in general I guess) fancies him or herself to be somewhat of an armchair tactician. Why would we presume to know better than that of professional football managers and their players otherwise?No I realised that I don't have a Pro License to back up my anaylsis, so I'm essentially becoming the 'armchair tactian' that I was moaning about.
It's a shame that others can't do similar quality checks on themselves before spouting rubbish on here.
I agree that the implementation isn't there but there are clear signs of a playstyle thats progress from Jose. And I'm pleased because unlike Jose' philosophy, I can see where Ole's pointed the team and its clear on what we need to achieve it, whether or not Ole's is still in place to deliver it to fruition...not my concern, and I'm sure I made that clear in my initial post.
Wait so you don't have a pro license so describing what Ole is doing would make you an 'armchair tactician'... right okNo I realised that I don't have a Pro License to back up my anaylsis, so I'm essentially becoming the 'armchair tactian' that I was moaning about.
It's a shame that others can't do similar quality checks on themselves before spouting rubbish on here.
I agree that the implementation isn't there but there are clear signs of a playstyle thats progress from Jose. And I'm pleased because unlike Jose' philosophy, I can see where Ole's pointed the team and its clear on what we need to achieve it, whether or not Ole's is still in place to deliver it to fruition...not my concern, and I'm sure I made that clear in my initial post.
There's a line where talking tactics becomes, what's this arsehat chatting.Wait so you don't have a pro license so describing what Ole is doing would make a an 'armchair tactician'... right ok
So you declaring that there are clear signs of a play style, doesn't make you an 'armchair tactician'.... right ok
So let me get this right, you think that you declaring that you can see a style, but then not even describing what it is, makes sense... right
If describing it isn't allowed because you do not possess a coaching license, what then gives you the license to declare you are able to identify the style?
I'm a little confused how you can come and tell people to check themselves before spouting rubbish when you are on a forum making claims about tactics (when you're not a qualified coach) which you can't even back up with any thought or evidence (because you are not a qualified coach) makes total sense....
So why then say that there clearly is one if you cannot explain it. That then would then surely mean its only your opinion that it exists no?There's a line where talking tactics becomes, what's this arsehat chatting.
A three page explanation on a playstyle that is regarded as personal opinion is firmly in arsehat territory
Yeah, just replace Ole with LVG or Jose and you would have even more footballing knowledge and yet they failed.I just typed out an overly long personal analysis of how I think we are intending to play (current injuries considered)...
Then I realised that you won't care enough to read it, and neither would I.
But people on here wish to believe that the combined Footballing knowledge of Ole, Mckenna, Carrick, Phelan and Demspey equates to nothing. Theyre just rolling dice to decide team selections and telling the squad its about taking part that counts?
Once we get a full strength squad back, you'll see the mood change here.
exactly. The form was shit at the end of the season and we didnt have too many injuries to my knowledge. THen it was wait for Ole and his preseason work with the squad and everything will be magically better. Now it is back to injuries as the excuse. You keep a smaller squad, you risk the injuries. Same thing we had under LVG. Except he didn't get to stay and use that as an excuse.Yeah, just replace Ole with LVG or Jose and you would have even more footballing knowledge and yet they failed.
So, even with the full strength squad, what does your tactical analysis say, on the form towards the end of the last season.
Well, I think it's a bit of both. Certainly Ole has only half a plan - to counter-attack, but United also seem more focused and determined in games against the bigger teams.I disagree - it's not a question of "Game raising" it's a question of OGS has one game plan - Sit back, defend deep and catch on the break. When a team sits back against them, United have nothing and doesn't have the Midfield to dominate a match centered in Midfield
Yes, he was astute against Klopp, but he doesnt have a plan B.
The good news is the other relegation contenders will not get as many points against the top 6 (Including LCFC) as United
Jesus! What next?14th now.
Yeah, just replace Ole with LVG or Jose and you would have even more footballing knowledge and yet they failed.
So, even with the full strength squad, what does your tactical analysis say, on the form towards the end of the last season.
Being a caretaker manager in a throwaway season and having 6 first team injuries in the first 9 games are migitating factors. It hasn't been a fair trail and to call for his head at this point is unbalanced criticismexactly. The form was shit at the end of the season and we didnt have too many injuries to my knowledge. THen it was wait for Ole and his preseason work with the squad and everything will be magically better. Now it is back to injuries as the excuse. You keep a smaller squad, you risk the injuries. Same thing we had under LVG. Except he didn't get to stay and use that as an excuse.
My opinion is that there is clearly a playstyle, your opinion is that there is not. Let's call it a day.So why then say that there clearly is one if you cannot explain it. That then would then surely mean its only your opinion that it exists no?
You said, with the full strength squad, the mood will change. My question was why was this full strength squad failing towards the end of the season?.Being a caretaker manager in a throwaway season and having 6 first team injuries in the first 9 games are migitating factors. It hasn't been a fair trail and to call for his head at this point is unbalanced criticism
Where have I even said thisBeing a caretaker manager in a throwaway season and having 6 first team injuries in the first 9 games are migitating factors. It hasn't been a fair trail and to call for his head at this point is unbalanced criticism
LVG and Jose both had fair trials.
My opinion is that there is clearly a playstyle, your opinion is that there is not. Let's call it a day.
The main one people keep alluding to, "There is no one else available". To me, that is not an enough reason to keep a failing manager.OK so I think it's time we weighed up the pro's and con's that have been argued throughout this thread and really look at them with open eyes and some real rationale.
Let us start with the arguments against Ole:
- 4 wins in 22 games since PSG.
- Currently 14th in the PL after 9 games;
- 2 points above relegation- 2 wins in last 14 league matches, with 6 draws and 6 defeats.
- 15 points behind leaders
- GD of +1
- 22.22% win ratio
- 10 points from 9 games.
- Winless away from home in eight matches.
- Haven't scored more than one goal since first game against Chelsea.
- Unable to hold on to a lead, having thrown leads away against Wolves, Southampton, Rochdale, Arsenal and Liverpool.
- Let go of Herrera, Lukaku, Fellaini and Sanchez without any like for like replacements and now the squad is threadbare and the best striker is a 10-goal-a-season man. Was the risk of injury to players not considered?
- Handed new contracts to Jones, Mata, Young despite claiming he wants to remove deadwood.
- Why are so many players injured (12 isn't it) 9 games into a season? Coincidence? Pure bad luck? Something wrong with training/fitness regimes?
- In-game management seems to be lacking. Subs made too late, system doesn't change, never appears to be a plan B, C or anything but a plan A.
- Won back to back titles with Molde in his first two seasons but finished 6th in his 3rd season, then heading to Cardiff, eventually relegating them and getting the sack.
- Won 9 out of 30 games for Cardiff (win rate of 30%)
- Returns to Molde and wins no titles finishing 5th in 2016, and runners up the following two seasons.
- Since leaving, Molde are now 1st in the league, 5 points clear with 5 games remaining, having lost only 3 of 25.
- Since leaving Molde, they have a win rate this season over 25 games of 68%. Ole's win rate for the club was 55.56%.
- Has a win rate for Manchester United, including the so called honeymoon period, of 47.5%, lower than any United manager since 1981.
- Worse start of a season for 33 years.
The arguments for Ole:
- If SAF had been sacked this early we wouldn't have had our many years of eventual success. (SAF had previously won silverware, incl European, for Aberdeen)
- It's a process (despite no visible progress and dire results, see above).
- His signings are good (Jose wanted Maguire, Giggs recommended James), so credit at least for AWB.
- He is a club legend.
- He had an initially good start with United.
- He is a nice guy, always smiling.
- He's giving youth a chance (despite Greenwood, Gomes etc barely playing).
- It has to get worse before it gets better (this one always amazes me).
- We drew against Liverpool.
- It's the United way.
- It's the players, not the manager.
- He has inherited years of bad management so deserves time to sort out the mess.
- Woodward is to blame for all the negatives, Ole is responsible for everything positive.
The thing that really strikes me is that all the negatives are backed up by hard evidence and statistics, yet the positives are somewhat subjective and there are zero stats which can be used to make a positive case for Ole.
Happy for anyone to add anything to either list if they are able to!?
For me, it all points to one thing, the need for Ole to go ASAP. But what do I know.
So you’d prefer no manager? Phelan? Carrick? Woodward?The main one people keep alluding to, "There is no one else available". To me, that is not an enough reason to keep a failing manager.
Unfortunately the writeup, while a good idea, is too biased to be approached from both sides.OK so I think it's time we weighed up the pro's and con's that have been argued throughout this thread and really look at them with open eyes and some real rationale.
14th, after 9 rounds played by all teams.Jesus! What next?
Edit: don't answer that. We're 15th now aren't we?
2 newly promoted teams are ahead of us, Villa and Sheffield.14th, after 9 rounds played by all teams.
Not the most balanced pros & cons list I've ever seen. It reads more like a dig at Ole than anything constructive.OK so I think it's time we weighed up the pro's and con's that have been argued throughout this thread and look at them with open eyes and some real rationale.
Let us start with the arguments against Ole:
- 4 wins in 22 games since PSG.
- Currently 14th in the PL after 9 games;
- 2 points above relegation- 2 wins in last 14 league matches, with 6 draws and 6 defeats.
- 15 points behind leaders
- GD of +1
- 22.22% win ratio
- 10 points from 9 games
- Winless away from home in eight matches.
- Haven't scored more than one goal since first game against Chelsea.
- Unable to hold on to a lead, having thrown leads away against Wolves, Southampton, Rochdale, Arsenal and Liverpool.
- Let go of Herrera, Lukaku, Fellaini and Sanchez without any like for like replacements and now the squad is threadbare and the best striker is a 10-goal-a-season man. Was the risk of injury to players not considered?
- Handed new contracts to Jones, Mata, Young despite claiming he wants to remove deadwood.
- Why are so many players injured (12 isn't it) 9 games into a season? Coincidence? Pure bad luck? Something wrong with training/fitness regimes?
- In-game management seems to be lacking. Subs made too late, system doesn't change, never appears to be a plan B, C or anything but a plan A.
- Won back to back titles with Molde in his first two seasons but finished 6th in his 3rd season, then heading to Cardiff, eventually relegating them and getting the sack.
- Won 9 out of 30 games for Cardiff (win rate of 30%)
- Returns to Molde and wins no titles finishing 5th in 2016, and runners up the following two seasons.
- Since leaving, Molde are now 1st in the league, 5 points clear with 5 games remaining, having lost only 3 of 25.
- Since leaving Molde, they have a win rate this season over 25 games of 68%. Ole's win rate for the club was 55.56%.
- Has a win rate for Manchester United, including the so called honeymoon period, of 47.5%, lower than any United manager since 1981.
- Worse start of a season for 33 years.
The arguments for Ole:
- If SAF had been sacked this early we wouldn't have had our many years of eventual success. (SAF had previously won silverware, incl European, for Aberdeen)
- It's a process (despite no visible progress and dire results, see above).
- His signings are good (Jose wanted Maguire, Giggs recommended James), so credit at least for AWB.
- He is a club legend.
- He had an initially good start with United.
- He is a nice guy, always smiling.
- He's giving youth a chance (despite Greenwood, Gomes etc barely playing).
- It has to get worse before it gets better (this one always amazes me).
- We drew against Liverpool.
- It's the United way.
- It's the players, not the manager.
- He has inherited years of bad management so deserves time to sort out the mess.
- Woodward is to blame for all the negatives, Ole is responsible for everything positive.
The thing that strikes me is that all the negatives are backed up by hard evidence and statistics, yet the positives are somewhat subjective and there are zero stats which can be used to make a positive case for Ole.
Happy for anyone to add anything to either list if they can!?
For me, it all points to one thing, the need for Ole to go ASAP. But what do I know?
Nice argument, make full sense. Hope Liverpool is a turning point and the team start climbing the table else Ole has to go come 2020 January. Give the new man half a season to decide what he needs for the summer transfer window.OK so I think it's time we weighed up the pro's and con's that have been argued throughout this thread and really look at them with open eyes and some real rationale.
Let us start with the arguments against Ole:
- 4 wins in 22 games since PSG.
- Currently 14th in the PL after 9 games;
- 2 points above relegation- 2 wins in last 14 league matches, with 6 draws and 6 defeats.
- 15 points behind leaders
- GD of +1
- 22.22% win ratio
- 10 points from 9 games
- Winless away from home in eight matches.
- Haven't scored more than one goal since first game against Chelsea.
- Unable to hold on to a lead, having thrown leads away against Wolves, Southampton, Rochdale, Arsenal and Liverpool.
- Let go of Herrera, Lukaku, Fellaini and Sanchez without any like for like replacements and now the squad is threadbare and the best striker is a 10-goal-a-season man. Was the risk of injury to players not considered?
- Handed new contracts to Jones, Mata, Young despite claiming he wants to remove deadwood.
- Why are so many players injured (12 isn't it) 9 games into a season? Coincidence? Pure bad luck? Something wrong with training/fitness regimes?
- In-game management seems to be lacking. Subs made too late, system doesn't change, never appears to be a plan B, C or anything but a plan A.
- Won back to back titles with Molde in his first two seasons but finished 6th in his 3rd season, then heading to Cardiff, eventually relegating them and getting the sack.
- Won 9 out of 30 games for Cardiff (win rate of 30%)
- Returns to Molde and wins no titles finishing 5th in 2016, and runners up the following two seasons.
- Since leaving, Molde are now 1st in the league, 5 points clear with 5 games remaining, having lost only 3 of 25.
- Since leaving Molde, they have a win rate this season over 25 games of 68%. Ole's win rate for the club was 55.56%.
- Has a win rate for Manchester United, including the so called honeymoon period, of 47.5%, lower than any United manager since 1981.
- Worse start of a season for 33 years.
The arguments for Ole:
- If SAF had been sacked this early we wouldn't have had our many years of eventual success. (SAF had previously won silverware, incl European, for Aberdeen)
- It's a process (despite no visible progress and dire results, see above).
- His signings are good (Jose wanted Maguire, Giggs recommended James), so credit at least for AWB.
- He is a club legend.
- He had an initially good start with United.
- He is a nice guy, always smiling.
- He's giving youth a chance (despite Greenwood, Gomes etc barely playing).
- It has to get worse before it gets better (this one always amazes me).
- We drew against Liverpool.
- It's the United way.
- It's the players, not the manager.
- He has inherited years of bad management so deserves time to sort out the mess.
- Woodward is to blame for all the negatives, Ole is responsible for everything positive.
The thing that really strikes me is that all the negatives are backed up by hard evidence and statistics, yet the positives are somewhat subjective and there are zero stats which can be used to make a positive case for Ole.
Happy for anyone to add anything to either list if they are able to!?
For me, it all points to one thing, the need for Ole to go ASAP. But what do I know.
I know, I know. I really tried to remove my bias but then I just couldn’t help myself. But I spent that long writing it out I couldn’t bring myself to not post it . I did try to keep it neutral but then as I thought about it long and hard, it just hit home how bad things are right now.Not the most balanced pros & cons list I've ever seen. It reads more like a dig at Ole than anything constructive.
In any case, you seem to have omitted a few underlying factors from 'the arguments for Ole' section such as:
- The squad and its many failings currently available to Ole is mostly the work of Jose Mourinho and, to a lesser extent, LVG.
- The players within the squad are performing to a similarly low standard today as when they played under the above managers.
- The ongoing injury crisis has had a large impact on performances squad wide and results by extension.
We're guaranteed to drop to 15th (at least temporarily) since Brighton are playing Everton on Saturday.Jesus! What next?
Edit: don't answer that. We're 15th now aren't we?
1) Our squad was still good enough to finish 2nd.Not the most balanced pros & cons list I've ever seen. It reads more like a dig at Ole than anything constructive.
In any case, you seem to have omitted a few underlying factors from 'the arguments for Ole' section such as:
- The squad and its many failings currently available to Ole is mostly the work of Jose Mourinho and, to a lesser extent, LVG.
- The players within the squad are performing to a similarly low standard today as when they played under the above managers.
- The ongoing injury crisis has had a large impact on performances squad wide and results by extension.
Good post. We should make a sticky of it so I don't have to point the same things out over and over again to those in favor of Ole at the wheel.OK so I think it's time we weighed up the pro's and con's that have been argued throughout this thread and really look at them with open eyes and some real rationale.
Let us start with the arguments against Ole:
- 4 wins in 22 games since PSG.
- Currently 14th in the PL after 9 games;
- 2 points above relegation- 2 wins in last 14 league matches, with 6 draws and 6 defeats.
- 15 points behind leaders
- GD of +1
- 22.22% win ratio
- 10 points from 9 games
- Winless away from home in eight matches.
- Haven't scored more than one goal since first game against Chelsea.
- Unable to hold on to a lead, having thrown leads away against Wolves, Southampton, Rochdale, Arsenal and Liverpool.
- Let go of Herrera, Lukaku, Fellaini and Sanchez without any like for like replacements and now the squad is threadbare and the best striker is a 10-goal-a-season man. Was the risk of injury to players not considered?
- Handed new contracts to Jones, Mata, Young despite claiming he wants to remove deadwood.
- Why are so many players injured (12 isn't it) 9 games into a season? Coincidence? Pure bad luck? Something wrong with training/fitness regimes?
- In-game management seems to be lacking. Subs made too late, system doesn't change, never appears to be a plan B, C or anything but a plan A.
- Won back to back titles with Molde in his first two seasons but finished 6th in his 3rd season, then heading to Cardiff, eventually relegating them and getting the sack.
- Won 9 out of 30 games for Cardiff (win rate of 30%)
- Returns to Molde and wins no titles finishing 5th in 2016, and runners up the following two seasons.
- Since leaving, Molde are now 1st in the league, 5 points clear with 5 games remaining, having lost only 3 of 25.
- Since leaving Molde, they have a win rate this season over 25 games of 68%. Ole's win rate for the club was 55.56%.
- Has a win rate for Manchester United, including the so called honeymoon period, of 47.5%, lower than any United manager since 1981.
- Worse start of a season for 33 years.
The arguments for Ole:
- If SAF had been sacked this early we wouldn't have had our many years of eventual success. (SAF had previously won silverware, incl European, for Aberdeen)
- It's a process (despite no visible progress and dire results, see above).
- His signings are good (Jose wanted Maguire, Giggs recommended James), so credit at least for AWB.
- He is a club legend.
- He had an initially good start with United.
- He is a nice guy, always smiling.
- He's giving youth a chance (despite Greenwood, Gomes etc barely playing).
- It has to get worse before it gets better (this one always amazes me).
- We drew against Liverpool.
- It's the United way.
- It's the players, not the manager.
- He has inherited years of bad management so deserves time to sort out the mess.
- Woodward is to blame for all the negatives, Ole is responsible for everything positive.
The thing that really strikes me is that all the negatives are backed up by hard evidence and statistics, yet the positives are somewhat subjective and there are zero stats which can be used to make a positive case for Ole.
Happy for anyone to add anything to either list if they are able to!?
For me, it all points to one thing, the need for Ole to go ASAP. But what do I know.