Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[NZT-One]

Are the lack of injuries not a credit to the management team, who were able to navigate the excessive load of the season well? Especially so when you compare it to how it was in previous years? I'll have to disagree with you on the referees and VAR considering how the PGMOL literally apologised for the referee's feck ups in the Sheffield United and West Brom games, which cost us 5 points alone, or the Everton 3-3 game where the referee mysteriously added extra time on to the added time despite there being hardly any stoppages during that period.

Well it could be. But it could also be just plain being a bit more lucky. Both is exactly the same in terms of probability. And if you think, that we have been navigated so well in the excessive load, why is this load so often brought up as reason we should be totally satisfied? Isn't that a bit inconsequential? I think, we will agree to disagree on that but I can assure you, that it isn't a good sign, that we have to resign to referees in matches against bottom of the table that we are not able to create chances against or are unable to defend standards against. Remember the offside goal Drogba scored against us in Old Trafford one year? This is decision that had impact. This is the level I meant.

The fact is we lost 6 league games all season and 5 of those games had pretty big asterisk marks against them with no preseason (Palace, Spurs, Arsenal) and the other coming during a period where we had to play 4 games in 7 days (Leicester, Liverpool). None of the circumstances around those games were in any way replicated for any of our rivals (bar City in the early stages). Liverpool had injuries but so did we the season before. I certainly wasn't seeing anyone throw us a pity party, either on here or elsewhere. Chelsea had finished level on points with us the season before and had then proceeded to spend £250m on adding to their first team. We had no right to finish ahead of them, irrespective of their defensive and managerial woes considering that for many on this forum, our manager is a joke figure/embarrassment who should not be in the job...

Just out if interest, have you seen all the matches of our competitors? I didn't and thats why I have to assume that they have close and tight matches just as well as we do. And I remember quite a few people in here taking about our injuries in the year before. I dont know if that counts as a pity party, I have no compassion with Pool this year, feck them. But when evaluating the season as a whole, it feels awfully screwed to just shrug their injuries off.
Again - I can follow your train of thought, but to me it feels like it is framed excessively to match a certain picture. Doesn't mean its true but what are the odds considering the truth is usually right in the middle between the extremes? (btw: Chelsea didn't buy anybody the year before, doesn't take anything away from your point but it wasn't the players who changed the course of their season in the middle of the season)

Also, City literally won 15 games in a row to get themselves ahead of the chasing pack (one of which, against Villa at the Etihad) was massively referee-assisted). Please tell me how often that has happened in the league? If, as I suspect, it hasn't happened very often at all, then I'm not sure where this idea was that they weren't an otherworldly force has come from? Especially since they were literally two good games away from an unprecedented quadruple.

Maybe I'll have a look later this evening but I don't get where you are going with this...? Because my point wasn't to diminish their season, I am just pointing out, that they had some issues and went into beast mode around Christmas. We were at the top around that time. And then we weren't due to bad results against bad opponents. I don't want to take anything away from City, they had a very good season and deserved the title. But they didn't run away with it from day one. They also had issues with pre season and fixture congestion (of course their squad gave them more options to choose from).

 

[hobbers]

Of course trophies are important, however, let's not skew this definition of "crucial games" to suit some weird agenda. If it's the rival that makes the game crucial, then FA Cup wins vs Chelsea, Arsenal, Pool, CL win vs PSG, LC win vs Chelsea, Everton, EL win vs Milan are all crucial. Surely these outnumber the losses to City x2, Chelsea, Leicester, Sevilla and Villarreal

Works both ways doesn't it.

We played great against PSG and Leipzig. Fantastic. Then we played abysmally against Istanbul and Leipzig in the crunch game that actually decided the outcome of the group. We choked. We erased the good feeling and momentum and impact of the earlier wins.

Then in the EL. We weren't great against Milan but got through. We had an amazing game against Roma, although almost lost it in the return leg. But then we choked in the final to Villarreal. The preceding EF run is therefore redundant.

We had a good FA cup run last season but Ole tried some hodgepodge selection and formation against Chelsea in the semi finals and blew the chance to make the final. Same story this season vs Leicester.

This is why trophies matter. Nobody remembers how well we played in the league in the Aguerrooooooo season. We actually had a damn fine season. But we didn't win the title. Erased.

 

[FreddieTheReddie]

By that logic every single game is important . 2nd round, second game week in the league. No difference between home in league cup 3rd round against Rotherham or the final against City.

Third round against Rotheram is not less important just much less difficult than the final against City. Or what would you say id we played City in the third round and Rotheram in the final?

 

[U99ted]

So, if we win say FA Cup next season, you wouldn't call these games that you've listed earlier as upsets?

Every team loses one-off games. Had Chelsea lost to City in CL, we'd be listing how they're a bunch of bottlers for losing to FA Cup to Leicester, almost bottling top 4, losing FA Cup final to Arsenal last season and so on.

If we win an FA Cup to go along with another good league finish, I would be pretty happy. Doesn't erase past cup defeats, but would go some way to making us forget them. We sure wouldn't be dwelling on another trophyless season.

To your second point, Chelsea didn't lose to City in the CL, which is all Chelsea fans care about right now. They don't care that they lost 2 FA Cup finals. They care that they won. With a manager appointed five months ago.

 

[Andycoleno9]

No, semis and finals don’t matter at all if you lose the quarter finals.

But pressure is higher and higher. Semis and finals especially are games with highest pressure

 

[el3mel]

I was away from thread since season ended and i see that argument is still; you want Ole out=you hate Ole= you are not United/proper fan. That istl the most annoying thing on this thread.
You think Ole is good. Fine. You have your view why? That is fine too. But why throw insults and that silly logic?
I am camping here since day one and i never insulted a poster on any way or said "you are not United fan, you are Ole fan".

Really annoying. I thought that after Sammsky's ban, insults will stop but it is still going on.

Sammsky will be proud reading the forum now and knowing his legacy is still going strong.

 

[NZT-One]

So you wrote all this just to confirm that it was bumped because England drew against Scotland. Cheers.

I wrote all that to be polite. But thanks for making it obvious to everybody that my advice regarding reading training was well adressed

 

[Desert Eagle]

Third round against Rotheram is not less important just much less difficult than the final against City. Or what would you say id we played City in the third round and Rotheram in the final?

I said it's a combination of round, competition and opponent that determines what is a "big game" 3rd round vs city in the league cup is a smaller game than a fa cup or league cup final against Rotherham or Rotheram(whoever that is)

 

[georgipep]

No matter really how many people try to argue otherwise, it's an undeniable fact that so far whenever this squad got close to win something, they bottled it. Whenever we reach advanced stages in a cup, we bottle them. When we led the CL group and needed a point to get through, we bottled it. When we led the league table by 3 points away from 2nd spot, we bottled it against 2 relegated teams and in 2 weeks we were 10 points away from the top.

You can bring on a 16th or 32th round game in the cup or a meaningless league game after we were already the title race just to paint it in a better color or prove to yourself the opposite, it won't change what actually happens.

Whenever we're close to win something, we completely bottle it.

Wonder why you don't apply the same reasoning to Liverpool and Klopp when you give them as example? See his lost finals in the first years...

 

[tomaldinho1]

Also, City literally won 15 games in a row to get themselves ahead of the chasing pack (one of which, against Villa at the Etihad) was massively referee-assisted). Please tell me how often that has happened in the league? If, as I suspect, it hasn't happened very often at all, then I'm not sure where this idea was that they weren't an otherworldly force has come from? Especially since they were literally two good games away from an unprecedented quadruple.

They lost in the semi to Chelsea in the FA cup.

I thought they were functional but relatively average compared to their team of a few seasons back this season. No other club has their depth, they didn't really have major injuries, had very nice draws in cups and also had a highly fortuitous covid break which changed their form completely. I don't think any team this year was great to be honest and were all probably running miles from full fitness.

 

[Berbasbullet]

They lost in the semi to Chelsea in the FA cup.

I thought they were functional but relatively average compared to their team of a few seasons back this season. No other club has their depth, they didn't really have major injuries, had very nice draws in cups and also had a highly fortuitous covid break which changed their form completely. I don't think any team this year was great to be honest and were all probably running miles from full fitness.

They actually completely mirrored our 08/09 season (in terms of winning and eliminations). Which is mad.

 

[el3mel]

Wonder why you don't apply the same reasoning to Liverpool and Klopp when you give them as example? See his lost finals in the first years...

Klopp was already getting mocked to death back then and a lot were calling him a bottler when it comes to finals, actually. He wasn't getting a free pass.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with your point in the other thread. You said that we can't challenge for the league because this squad doesn't have much winning experience. I told you the Liverpool team who managed to get 97 points, win CL, then win the league the next season with 99 didn't have any winning experience at all before Liverpool, so you replied by saying they rebuilt the squad in 5 years *face palm* when it was rebuilt in 2.5 years just like us.

Completely different discussion than what we're talking about here.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

1 German cup and 1 Champions League = 2 Norwegian leagues

Sure mate whatever suits you

Champions League was won at Chelsea, so oil money. Keep up son

 

[red4ever 79]

At least its still all quiet on the contract front from Ole. Hopefully the board wait and reassess end of next season before deciding.

 

[Matriac]

At least its still all quiet on the contract front from Ole. Hopefully the board wait and reassess end of next season before deciding.

I feel pretty sure it's already signed and will be announced in the week(s) leading up to pre-season.

 

[red4ever 79]

I feel pretty sure it's already signed and will be announced in the week(s) leading up to pre-season.

Hopefully not. Would be good if the club finally learned some patience in their decision making

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

The Ole outers simply cant see past Ole's CV. Opinions about him would have obviously been different had he won something big before coming here

 

[tomaldinho1]

They actually completely mirrored our 08/09 season (in terms of winning and eliminations). Which is mad.

Yep, although we lost to peak Barca in the CL final & did better in the PL.

 

[Bebestation]

I support Ole for his DOF approach to United.

We are growing to be better and better because of this - long term problems are getting looked at (ie de Gea’s inability to come out of his line vs how Ole bought in Henderson when that mistake was made this season)

His tactical weaknesses and other issues are there - I don’t necessarily see him as a title winning manager; I would be happy to be wrong - yet I’m also just kind of happy at taking a different building approach to United. When the time is right let’s go for that title winning manager - until then I can enjoy the Sancho’s type transfers that look in to hopefully filling up some horrible gaps that have been a near decade now (RW, LCB, CDM, ST etc).

I genuinely feel that we are a good summer, January and maybe a summer 2022 transfer window away from being a team with minimal weaknesses- maybe summer 2022 is the year we go for that title manager if Ole by then proves that he cannot take us any further.

 

[Andycoleno9]

The Ole outers simply cant see past Ole's. Opinions about him would have obviously been different had he won something big before coming here

Well, of course. It is logical. If you know what manager can do then you can give him time. Ole got 3 years based on what? Blind faith.

You hire Conte for example. You know that he can build team for title. He showed that. Same goes for Klopp. Jose (before his decline). Simeone. Tuchel. Etc...
We will give Ole 3rd full season with only blind faith that he can do it. Based on nothing.
It is like expecting that James will become new Robben. Well, he will not

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Well, of course. It is logical. If you know what manager can do then you can give him time. Ole got 3 years based on what? Blind faith.

You hire Conte for example. You know that he can build team for title. He showed that. Same goes for Klopp. Jose (before his decline). Simeone. Tuchel. Etc...
We will give Ole 3rd full season with only blind faith that he can do it. Based on nothing.
It is like expecting that James will become new Robben. Well, he will not

It's nothing like expecting James to become Robben. Because Ole unlike James has shown progression since he came here. I'd rather not compare players to coach.

Saying Ole should be given time (specifically just next season) is not blind faith. It would be if I dont know what hes capable of. But I do and that's so far taking us from 6th to 3rd to 2nd. So its not blind faith to think Ole can challenge for the title if backed this window when he has only gone up in the league since he came here, 6th to 2nd.

 

[anant]

@anant . @Halftrack . My point about "crucial" games is that we didn't won anything so far. Despite having multiple chances for it. And in a few games, we lost because manager made bad calls. You can't win everything but in 3 seasons you must win something ffs. Especially when you are close to it many times.
Would you be happy with James as starting winger or Ighalo as starting striker? Despite they produce decent numbers? I guess not. So why do you not have same criteria for manager?
Manager is the most important person in club and in giant club like United, manager must be top class. The fact is that he lost most of semis and finals because he messed up, not because he was beaten by better team (like against City for example).
If Ole is not "our" Ole, our legend, would you be happy with him?

Yes, I would be happy with him because we've improved season over season. For the 1st time we're signing players who make sense rather than signing a Sanchez or a Schmidifeld and so on.

 

[anant]

Semifinals and finals are more important than quarterfinals do you agree? Losing them counts for more than winning quarterfinals. Trophies are important because if Ole had a trophy or two in the bag your case would be much stronger. Funny you count psg CL win but don't include his loss to barca in the next round btw.

Anyways we both hope Ole wins a trophy ( hopefully not the feckimg europa or lc)next season , let's leave it at that .

And by that logic, literally every side in the history of sport has been a bunch of bottlers. Eliminated in Semis - bottler as your record in big games becomes P1 L1; eliminated in Finals - your record in big games P1 L1 and so on. To reach the Semis, you need to win QF. To reach Finals, you need to win Semis and so on. In a KO competition, literally every game is a big game

 

[anant]

Well, of course. It is logical. If you know what manager can do then you can give him time. Ole got 3 years based on what? Blind faith.

You hire Conte for example. You know that he can build team for title. He showed that. Same goes for Klopp. Jose (before his decline). Simeone. Tuchel. Etc...
We will give Ole 3rd full season with only blind faith that he can do it. Based on nothing.
It is like expecting that James will become new Robben. Well, he will not

CV should matter at the time of appointment. Once hired, CV shouldn't matter at all. Managers contract should be extended/he be let go on purely on the basis of his performances while at the club. One shouldn't be giving a feck about how the manager led a team in Netherlands or Portugal to CL win 15 years ago.
In Ole's case, he got hired as an interim and did good job. And hence we hired him. Had Mou been sacked at the end of the season, doubt Ole would have been even a contender

 

[Desert Eagle]

And by that logic, literally every side in the history of sport has been a bunch of bottlers. Eliminated in Semis - bottler as your record in big games becomes P1 L1; eliminated in Finals - your record in big games P1 L1 and so on. To reach the Semis, you need to win QF. To reach Finals, you need to win Semis and so on. In a KO competition, literally every game is a big game

I don't want to keep arguing this minor point. I never used the word bottler in this conversation, I don't know why you're bringing it up. Sides that win trophies are usually not called bottlers even if they lose big games from time to time. And yes knockout games are big games but the further you go in competition the bigger the games become. I seriously don't know what your point is anymore.

 

[Matriac]

I don't want to keep arguing this minor point. I never used the word bottler in this conversation, I don't know why you're bringing it up. Sides that win trophies are usually not called bottlers even if they lose big games from time to time. And yes knockout games are big games but the further you go in competition the bigger the games become. I seriously don't know what your point is anymore.

That if we are not winning a tournament we'd rather lose in the semi-final than in earlier qualification rounds. To me it always seemed weird to be criticizing Ole for reaching so many semi-finals in his time here.
Yes, ideally he should have gotten a trophy with us in these 2 full seasons he's had, but at least we've gotten pretty far in most tournaments we played in.

 

[pocco]

I support Ole for his DOF approach to United.

We are growing to be better and better because of this - long term problems are getting looked at (ie de Gea’s inability to come out of his line vs how Ole bought in Henderson when that mistake was made this season)

His tactical weaknesses and other issues are there - I don’t necessarily see him as a title winning manager; I would be happy to be wrong - yet I’m also just kind of happy at taking a different building approach to United. When the time is right let’s go for that title winning manager - until then I can enjoy the Sancho’s type transfers that look in to hopefully filling up some horrible gaps that have been a near decade now (RW, LCB, CDM, ST etc).

I genuinely feel that we are a good summer, January and maybe a summer 2022 transfer window away from being a team with minimal weaknesses- maybe summer 2022 is the year we go for that title manager if Ole by then proves that he cannot take us any further.

Basically keep throwing hundreds of millions of pounds his way and hope he finally stumbles upon a trophy. He's spent £150m on defence, had a rejuvenated Shaw and a very good backup in Telles, yet we're still talking about spending another load of money to sort out the defence. Look at Chelsea in comparison. The writing is on the wall.

 

[anant]

I don't want to keep arguing this minor point. I never used the word bottler in this conversation, I don't know why you're bringing it up. Sides that win trophies are usually not called bottlers even if they lose big games from time to time. And yes knockout games are big games but the further you go in competition the bigger the games become. I seriously don't know what your point is anymore.

The point is that if you're going to ignore the games leading up to the biggest game, there is no side in the world that has a good 'big game" record. In a knockout competition, you're literally just taking into account the last game the side played - so unless there is a side that has won more than 50% of the competitions they've been part of, they've always had a poor big game record.

Obviously, the pressure gets higher the further you progress, and no one's doubting that. However, if you're reaching Semis this consistently, while doing well in the league, surely the side must be doing something good.

 

[Desert Eagle]

The point is that if you're going to ignore the games leading up to the biggest game, there is no side in the world that has a good 'big game" record. In a knockout competition, you're literally just taking into account the last game the side played - so unless there is a side that has won more than 50% of the competitions they've been part of, they've always had a poor big game record.

Obviously, the pressure gets higher the further you progress, and no one's doubting that. However, if you're reaching Semis this consistently, while doing well in the league, surely the side must be doing something good.

That if we are not winning a tournament we'd rather lose in the semi-final than in earlier qualification rounds. To me it always seemed weird to be criticizing Ole for reaching so many semi-finals in his time here.
Yes, ideally he should have gotten a trophy with us in these 2 full seasons he's had, but at least we've gotten pretty far in most tournaments we played in.

Great we agree on those three points.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Basically keep throwing hundreds of millions of pounds his way and hope he finally stumbles upon a trophy. He's spent £150m on defence, had a rejuvenated Shaw and a very good backup in Telles, yet we're still talking about spending another load of money to sort out the defence. Look at Chelsea in comparison. The writing is on the wall.

If we spend another 80 on a defender this summer, Ole will have spent 240m on defenders alone. 240m to fix the defence. I could do that.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

If we spend another 80 on a defender this summer, Ole will have spent 240m on defenders alone. 240m to fix the defence. I could do that.

Pep spends that on left backs

 

[georgipep]

Klopp was already getting mocked to death back then and a lot were calling him a bottler when it comes to finals, actually. He wasn't getting a free pass.

But this has absolutely nothing to do with your point in the other thread. You said that we can't challenge for the league because this squad doesn't have much winning experience. I told you the Liverpool team who managed to get 97 points, win CL, then win the league the next season with 99 didn't have any winning experience at all before Liverpool, so you replied by saying they rebuilt the squad in 5 years *face palm* when it was rebuilt in 2.5 years just like us.

Completely different discussion than what we're talking about here.

It's not about getting a free pass. It's about knowing what you talking about. People mocking Klopp knew nothing, as proven by Liverpool in the past 3 seasons. That doesn't mean Ole will emulate similar success. It just shows that applying half-arsed logic about reaching finals and losing them means nothing.

 

[Bilbo]

Basically keep throwing hundreds of millions of pounds his way and hope he finally stumbles upon a trophy. He's spent £150m on defence, had a rejuvenated Shaw and a very good backup in Telles, yet we're still talking about spending another load of money to sort out the defence. Look at Chelsea in comparison. The writing is on the wall.

Buying better players to create a better team is something that literally every single professional football club is trying to do all the time

 

[Mickson]

It's nothing like expecting James to become Robben. Because Ole unlike James has shown progression since he came here. I'd rather not compare players to coach.

Saying Ole should be given time (specifically just next season) is not blind faith. It would be if I dont know what hes capable of. But I do and that's so far taking us from 6th to 3rd to 2nd. So its not blind faith to think Ole can challenge for the title if backed this window when he has only gone up in the league since he came here, 6th to 2nd.

He has not shown progression in our play. The only difference is that he has Bruno Fernandes instead of Pereira, which is the sole and only reason why we are slightly better than before.

 

[Karlos PFC]

Many variables can affect the outcome of team sports. Individual errors, injuries, form, fortune etc.
Only a fecking idiot would place it all at the feet of one man.

There you go, you already have the excuses for next season.

Champions League was won at Chelsea, so oil money. Keep up son

So getting the Champions league with oil money doesn't count the same.

Keep it up mate.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

He has not shown progression in our play. The only difference is that he has Bruno Fernandes instead of Pereira, which is the sole and only reason why we are slightly better than before.

That's like saying City only got better because they signed Aguero to improve on likes of Bellamy and Adebayor. Surely that's the job of the coach to identify and sign better players.

Shaw has improved. Rashford has had 2 20plus goal seasons back to back. Maguire has been good signing even if a tad expensive. Cavani has been good. He's brought Greenwood through who has been excellent.

Take away your Ole out agenda. He's done more than just sign Bruno.

 

[Mickson]

That's like saying City only got better because they signed Aguero to improve on likes of Bellamy and Adebayor. Surely that's the job of the coach to identify and sign better players.

Shaw has improved. Rashford has had 2 20plus goal seasons back to back. Maguire has been good signing even if a tad expensive. Cavani has been good. He's brought Greenwood through who has been excellent.

Take away your Ole out agenda. He's done more than just sign Bruno.

Not really worth responding to, but still, I will. Pep has changed City whole approach, system and style of play. Ole hasn't really changed anything from his first seasons. He still plays the same way, still has the same weakness and still uses the same system. The difference, as I said, is that he has better players. Which he, of course, is somewhat responsible for. For our development in our play? I'm not sure he has done so much more than replaced Pereira with Bruno and replaced a CB with Maguire (among other positions). He got better players, and therefore we are slightly better as a team. But regarding our development in passing, in the style of play, he hasn't really done much. That is why I don't think he will win anything of note at United. You need something more than just great players.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Not really worth responding to, but still, I will. Pep has changed City whole approach, system and style of play. Ole hasn't really changed anything from his first seasons. He still plays the same way, still has the same weakness and still uses the same system. The difference, as I said, is that he has better players. Which he, of course, is somewhat responsible for. For our development in our play? I'm not sure he has done so much more than replaced Pereira with Bruno and replaced a CB with Maguire (among other positions). He got better players, and therefore we are slightly better as a team. But regarding our development in passing, in the style of play, he hasn't really done much.

He's played City 5 times in the league and not lost yet. 3 wins and 2 draws and he's not improved us?

We came 3rd and 2nd place. The best two consecutive league finishes since Fergie days.

I know this forum is famous for hyperbole but to say he's not improved us anywhere except with Bruno is nonsense. Probably same people saying this who seem to think Declan Rice is the answer for us. Totally clueless.

Ole has brought Mason Greenwood through and handled him very well. Cavani has been class. Shaw has improved.

Nobody wants to give the man any credit at all. It's so so sad to see. Sure he's made mistakes too but the team and club is in best shape it's been for years. If you can't see that then there's nothing left for you.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

There you go, you already have the excuses for next season.



So getting the Champions league with oil money doesn't count the same.

Keep it up mate.

Your fellow Ole-outter, @Mainoldo , wants a Tuchel type manager, I was pointing out that, without the oil money, Tuchel has won only one cup. Then you've got guys like @pocco and @UnofficialDevil who are moaning because he's spent money to improve the team. Ole can't win with you lot, but you'll be the first celebrating when we win something

 

[pocco]

Buying better players to create a better team is something that literally every single professional football club is trying to do all the time

So every manager should be without scrutiny until they decide when their team is ready ie when they win things? Is there not a point where it is safe to say they've spent enough and have a lot at their disposal to have their team looking better than they are? I don't know why I'm asking, that's been the case for every football manager ever.