Because it's patterns and not just 1 pattern? You see systems of plays and a range of attacking ways in which teams consistently hurt opponents.
The guy is one of the worst analytics posters who posts about actual football.
Right, but in that case let's make it somewhat equal to favour the club's scouts as well. There are a ton of players our fans have said "Sign him, too good to ignore", etc. How many of those players are genuinely elite players?
Well, football is an inherently unpredictable game, and it is a big reason why so many of these stats and tactical system guys on Twitter fall short in their analysis. They don't seem to be able to comprehend that particular quality of the sport. Where one player can thrive in one environment and not another, or where a system can be let down in its execution, or how better players allow you to become better etc.
It's hilarious. We scored more goals last season in all competitions since 2006/7 (which for me, was the apex of Utd under Fergie, despite the next season being the one with the CL) but if you listen to Kees, you'd think we're lucky to be midtable.
Oh God, I'm getting flashbacks to Schneiderlin and Darmian, the latter of whom especially, was a Twitter favourite in 2014...
Weird, I suppose we can cancel transfer windows now then, the players you have are of secondary importance.Yeah pretty much. I said something recently on Twitter about some stats guy (supposedly a Utd fan) who constantly denigrates Utd under Ole for having no plan and our results being unsustainable, that the way he talks about us, you'd be forgiven for thinking that we're Burnley, and not the team who was behind only Man City in points accrued since January 2020, and I think since Ole first joined in his caretaker stint we've been comfortably third on that metric as well, behind only the all conquering Liverpool and City sides.
That alone should tell you that what we're doing under Ole is pretty fecking sustainable, no?
Another corker was this absolute toilet water of a tweet:
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Like seriously, what does that even mean?
I agree with this. I think you could see when Ole came in, he was looking for the playing from the back, hence why he started with I believe Jones and Lindelof (and why he was trying to ease Smalling out).
Part of me thinks this is the personnel. Weve seen Ole mention it with regards to striker runs, and there are times when it happens, but then a lot of times when it doesnt. I think this is why Ole is happy to have Ronaldo and Cavani, the runs they make off the ball is different to people like Martial who wants the ball to feet.
We will see, because his head to head against the managers is mostly excellent. The issue is over the length of a season and needing to turn the draws into wins. For the first time hes got a squad (mostly thanks to him) where you would be confident this can happen. Its almost a given we would have had James or Martial in for Ronaldo before the signing. But you can see the difference against the 'lesser' teams that will have.
I think youvebeen fair with your post and why its a good post. But it seems posts like yours will not lead to discussion unfortunately, whereas OTT ones will, for some reason.
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What's more amazing is that even last season, we pretty much beat every low block team bar the odd results vs Palace and WBA and SHU. Hell, Pool dropped more points against these teams than us. But still, it's "we got lucky there"
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This encapsulates it for me. Chelsea were decidedly more dodgy in their win yesterday, do you reckon their fans are having this level of introspection over their result, or do you think they're enjoying the result? Heck, I'm seeing nothing in terms of scrutiny from the opposition fans to it either, whereas Ole seems to just get it every time.
All of those teams changed the way they played when they added different players though. Chelsea will with Lukaku. United under Ole have too. Too much is made of the whole thing IMO. Modern football fans think coaches can control every aspect of what players do during a football match
Such an AIDS opinion FFS.
Zidane's Real didn't really have a "set style of play", did it? At least not vastly more set in it's style than Ole's United.
Neither can the guys that are getting paid to do the job with all manner of resources available to them. Look at us for example, when was the last time we made a successful under the radar signing?
There was a greater variation in how Utd played under Fergie. I would say there was more of an emphasis on players identifiying triggers during different phases of play rather than the rehearsed set patterns we see from City and Liverpool.
Im pretty sure fans have done about anyone with any semblence of talent given how many fans there is. So pretty much every player was once that for supporters.
But so what? I'd rather positivity than incessant over the top negativity...
I stand at the same position to what I think about him. This is not negativity, it is called opinion based on facts, you on the other hand are just here to bully people so I dont think you must be taken seriously and your opinions are only sentimentality driven. He is the weakest point in this team.
Nope, did not answer my question. Why do you think opinions that do not suit your point of view is negativity. I have given you my reasons. What the wum did "above" is just poor attention seeking. It is negativity when my opinion affect the manager directly, do you think Ole reads the red cafe thread?
In fairness, we played CL football every year so would be interesting to work this out when we’re not factoring in hammering teams like Granada or Sociedad and extra EL games.
Opinion based on facts
I strongly disagree. Stats are absolutely spot on for long term observations. Stats are not intended to predict single games or in match events. But they do show a very accurate picture of underlying trends and tendencies.
I agree with this, however, the issue is when some analysts on FT stop using stats and use eye test to come up with an agenda.
I think that's an incorrect inference to take from stats. They're a tool, sometimes they tell us useful information if they're modeled and interpreted correctly in very specific contexts, but most of it is just raw data that is, for the most part, meaningless. In a sport as chaotic as football a lot of coincidence and unpredictability happens than people who study stats often are willing to admit.
How man management has been elite. Martial one of the rare examples of players who have struggled
Stats are factual, the interpretation of them is not. People forget that the latter is the important bit and not many people are good at it.
When I say data and stats, I think of insights and data that has been interpreted. And in that sense, I fully agree with you, except the part about the chaotic sport. Actually, football is quite predictable on a macro level. And the data clearly shows it
Always nice to make you smile.
What really hurt us wasn't the 0-0 against the top4. It was not being able to create good chances against Sheffield, Westbrom, Villareal and Leicester. Regarding the "set style" topic, see below.
Which is exactly what we have seen last season. And what has hurt us to a big degree. Only this should at least be a little trigger to overthink a stance that is 100% percent freedom and unpredicability. Some people undeniably thrive in it, but who know how many would thrive with more instructions, with more safety nets, less decisions to make?
It doesn't if you look at one game for itself. When you look over a longer period of time, I think, it is obvious that a well oiled team as big advantages. I think, this is something, that might be overlooked somehow, a lot of the criticism, that comes up (even after games like yesterday) stems from things, that have been criticised for a long time. And the inability to create good chances has prevented us from trashing Villareal whose players were physically done after 60 to 70 minutes. The inability to circulate the ball takes a big share for us not being able to control the match against Leipzig in the CL. These issues are having an effect. They should be engaged with. Pointing that out, should never be seen as negativity.
Based on his records with our previous managers and Ole I don't really think it's the case here. Tbh I have no idea what's wrong with him, probably he's just that and none would do a damn thing to motivate him but himself. Imo he's a typically unambitious guy, who got too much fame and money at an early age. Very hard to motivate those.
Datasets over time is used in sports to get a idea of how you're performing. The time factor allows you to remove factors such as chance and circumstance that is generated every game. For example you can't reasonably predict that De Gea will let the worlds softest goal in. But you can over 37 more games predict that he's going to have a save% of x. Even events from chaos have a variable which you can predict with a reasonable degree of accuracy over time.
Yeah fine and you are the hundredth person to say that. At some point, you should realize, that this won't come by telling others that you think, they should do. I am sorry, I do not see the issue to the extent, some of you see it. Over the top criticism has always been there it belongs to football like it does to every sport. If you really want to do something against negativity, talk to the mods, think of ways to keep that in check. This constant appealing is obviously not working - try another approach, try to ignore the bullshit, use the ignore function of this very platform, create threads that are "safe-zones" if you feel that is necessary for your mental "health".
Well no. Raw data is raw data. Interpretation is what makes it information that can be used and applied in meaningful ways.
I like that post. I think, you are right, data only has value when the person who is using it, knows what its limitations are. Currently, statistics are not able to display everything on a football pitch. But they might get there over time.
Don't get me wrong. I love stats. And I think they're really really useful. But I think people who don't understand where they come from and the models underneath can often misuse them, with complete confidence bordering on arrogance. And I think footballing journalism is rife with such cases.
