Ole has no system that I can see ..... or do I just need better glasses?

[eire-red]

Watching the City match now, and Liverpool yesterday, and for me it's hard not to compare us to them and try to determine what's missing. Yes, maybe the system isn't good enough, or coaching or whatever. But for me, the biggest thing that is lacking from our game is intensity and purpose.

Funny thing is, City don't play some untouchable brand of football. They play with desire, intensity and have a really good tempo in their passing, but they do the fundamentals of the game consistently well.

Now I'm as sick to death as anyone at overanalysing our defeat from Palace, but a lot of the things that we're wrong with that performances were nothing to do with recruitment.

We don't do the fundamentals of the game well at all, sometimes it feels like our players feel like they have to do the 'hard pass' or something, and its infuriating to watch the game tonight and see the contrast between us and City.

 

[Mainoldo]

Watching the City match now, and Liverpool yesterday, and for me it's hard not to compare us to them and try to determine what's missing. Yes, maybe the system isn't good enough, or coaching or whatever. But for me, the biggest thing that is lacking from our game is intensity and purpose.

Funny thing is, City don't play some untouchable brand of football. They play with desire, intensity and have a really good tempo in their passing, but they do the fundamentals of the game consistently well.

Now I'm as sick to death as anyone at overanalysing our defeat from Palace, but a lot of the things that we're wrong with that performances were nothing to do with recruitment.

We don't do the fundamentals of the game well at all, sometimes it feels like our players feel like they have to do the 'hard pass' or something, and its infuriating to watch the game tonight and see the contrast between us and City.

Don’t worry when we get Sancho a new left back and our regular new shiny CB. All this will change....

For a month until they settle in of course.

 

[wolvored]

I'm watching the Wanderers game and like us City haven't had a pre season yet look light years better than us on Saturday. That has to come from better coaching and fitness.

 

[Get young talent]

Clear 4-2-3-1.

Main problem is that Lindy sucks and Pogba+attackers are inconsistent.

Exactly,

But we are unbalanced because we don't have a proper RW

 

[Bobcat]

Ole's system is more reliant on the players he has than any other coach in the top half apart from Mourinho probably. It explains why we fall apart when a player or two is missing.

I've seen Guardiola sides still play his style of football when they had KDB, Silva and Fernandinho out. They might drop points but you could see there was a fundamental system. If we have Bruno or Pogba out, all of a sudden our play style changes and probably for the worse.

When two or more starters are out we look clueless. The replacements in the team also play nothing like the players they are replacing in the team. It just shows his 'system' is just about putting good players on the pitch together.

Like someone else mentioned, his main quality is motivating players and creating a good team atmosphere and if you have good players that will take you a long way. However without a clear playing style or top coaching ability, we will never truly be successful under him.

The difference is that Pep has the luxury of replacing those players with the likes of Mahrez, Gundogan, Jesus, and B Silva, we've had to rely on rubbish like Lindgard, Pereira and a past it Mata. Not only does Pep have the luxury of having good players, but their back ups are also a good fit for his system/style

Everyone is reliant on certain players to make it work. Take the fullbacks or Salah/Mane out of Liverpool and i can guarantee you they will look comparatively toothless because no system in the world is suddenly going to turn Firmino into a prolific goal scoring CF.

If Ole was a shite tactician he would not have managed such a decent record against the top teams, but as we all know its the smaller teams that has been his Achilles heel so far. We struggle breaking down low blocks and as a result have a pretty shite record against them. Also in my opinion, we lack the squad options to make any meaningful tactical adjustments. Sure we can throw on Ighalo and just throw more men forward, but other than having more bodies in dangerous areas it does not really offer anything different. So its mostly a personnel issue for a few key reasons

1. We lack good attacking fullbacks. Shaw is alright when in form and i thought AWB got better as the season progressed, but neither of them are prolific crossers, this is also made worse by
2. We dont have a single natural winger at the club (James, but hes not good enough). Rashford and Greenwood are good, but they are forwards not wingers.
3. All of out attacking options are very similar. Martial, Rashford and Greenwood are all at their best when they can run at defenders and all of them are capable finishers. Greenwood looks like he could become a good poacher as well, since his positioning is really good for someone his age, but a target man for example is something we lack.
4. Our midfield problems are still not solved. I would not say that the novelty of Bruno has worn off or that it was just a purple patch, but by now every team in the league is going to be aware of the threat he poses so they are going to make sure hes watched very closely. Vs Palace for example he was constantly swarmed by 2-3 players the second he got the ball so they completely shut him down. If Pogba and McTomminay had actually used all that extra room that gave them things would have gone differently imo, but alas both of them were fecking awful. I honestly dont know what is our best midfield set up. Pogba + Bruno sounds like a mouthwatering prospect on paper, but so far it has not been that great.

Could also mention that until Bruno arrived we also offered zero threat centrally so it was a case of us having very little threat from out wide and no threat centrally so it was not strange we looked like we could not score in a brothel

We have a system, the problem is that it is entirely dependent on the front three+Bruno both creating AND putting the ball in the net. If we had dangerous wingers and/or Pogba in the form he was when Ole was caretaker i can guarantee you we would be much more unpredictable and hard to contain. Dangerous wingers means teams have to defend wider against us instead of just packing the box and an in-form Pogba means they have to push higher to pressure him or risk getting completely pinned back

 

[Davie Moyes]

What struck me the most was how players stuck rigidly to their “zones” and they weren’t necessarily traditional positions players took up. We used Fellaini and Mata almost as inside forwards, slightly infield and in the space between the base of our midfield and the opposition backline.

Without the ball we played incredibly compact and narrow. The gap between the forwards and the defenders was much less than you would expect in a traditional setup.

Watching Utd now, it strikes me that some of the gaps are too big. Certainly it seems like one half-decent pass can dissect us and lead to 2 vs 2 attacking counters for the opposition

Cheers for this. Very interesting.

 

[gerdm07]

They probably don't make enough, but what's even more infuriating is when they do, the lack of movement in the box, or even just the lack of anyone in the box.

It's mind boggling. Imagine using width as a genuine tactic to stretch defences, and then look up and Martial and Rashford are waiting on the 18 yard line for the clever pull back for the picture perfect goal.

I agree with this. Nobody can say we don't overlap though. To you point though, doesn't it seem that when we put a ball across the goal there are 2 near the 18 yard line, and when we cut a ball back to the 18 yard line there are 2 players in front of the goal.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Ole has no system ???

How on earth did we finish 3rd then, beat Chelsea and City 3 times each in one season and only lose one league game against any top 6 club. Yes Liverpool away was our 1 and only only defeat to the top 6 in the PL.

This madness needs to stop. Everyone aim your anger to the board. Changing managers won't do anything. It hasn't in 7 years and it won't in the next 7 either.

 

[Fussball13251]

Everybody has a system. The other teams are just playing better. But individually we are better than Crystal Palace.

All 19 other teams? Or Liverpool and City who were the only teams in front of us last season?

But these other teams are still playing better... gelling better, etc.

Of course we will still do better by the end of the season because we have far better players individually.

 

[Andersonson]

Everybody has a system. The other teams are just playing better.

All 19 other teams? Or Liverpool and City who were the only teams in front of us last season?

 

[padzilla]

The Totally Football Podcast spoke about our tactics against Palace and said we rely on AWB to shut down the right channel knowing no-one will get past and for Matic to aid the central defenders in a high line, with Shaw having licence to go forward because we know the back door hasn't been left open. They said the problems arise when we try the same tactics with players other than AWB and Matic who don't have the same attributes. Food for thought anyway.

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

Can anyone name any players that OGS has improved?

 

[romufc]

Can anyone name any players that OGS has improved?

Martial.

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

Martial.

apart from Martial

 

[romufc]

apart from Martial

Greenwood.

 

[G4stars]

Ole needs to play a system that suits our players over a long season, not just going through purple patches here and there. Too many players in positions they don't really like or are good in. We have three number 9's playing across a top three, Rashford and Greenwodd are not (inverted) wingers and I'm fed up with Rashford's performances there. Maguire needs pace around him and AWB and Shaw are pretty shocking at going forward, but tight defensively (back 3 then). Pogba can be released a bit more to do some damage further up field and width can be provided by the wingbacks who are better attacking wise than defensively eg Dalot and Williams. I know the wingbacks options are not great but at least everyone else will be playing in more favoured positions (assuming we buy Telles).

Maybe I'm missing something but Ole needs to try something different and start playing to people's strengths.

Dave

AWB Maguire Shaw

Dalot/James/Williams Telles?

DVB/Matic

Bruno Pogba

Rash Martial

 

[padzilla]

For some reason United seem very susceptible to low crosses into our box under Ole, Sevilla scored two goals that should have been cut out very easily while Liverpool scored something similar at Old Trafford last year while Palace's opener was the same again at the weekend. Is it a question of needing better full backs or playing three in the middle at the back?

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

Greenwood.

Ok-apart from Greenwood and Martial

Joking aside-I could argue with both names. Martial has improved playing as a striker instead of an inside forward. Let's give him another season to see if he can replicate that.

Greenwood? I think he is more of a breakthrough talent. It's difficult to claim he has improved under OGS as we haven't seen him play for a few seasons.

 

[romufc]

For some reason United seem very susceptible to low crosses into our box under Ole, Sevilla scored two goals that should have been cut out very easily while Liverpool scored something similar at Old Trafford last year while Palace's opener was the same again at the weekend. Is it a question of needing better full backs or playing three in the middle at the back?

Chelsea's two goals in the FA cup semi final too.

I think our CB's do not position themselves to cut the first ball in, how often have we put a low cross that is cut out by a defender on the near post? Defensive positioning has been poor.

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

Ole needs to play a system that suits our players over a long season, not just going through purple patches here and there. Too many players in positions they don't really like or are good in. We have three number 9's playing across a top three, Rashford and Greenwodd are not (inverted) wingers and I'm fed up with Rashford's performances there. Maguire needs pace around him and AWB and Shaw are pretty shocking at going forward, but tight defensively (back 3 then). Pogba can be released a bit more to do some damage further up field and width can be provided by the wingbacks who are better attacking wise than defensively eg Dalot and Williams. I know the wingbacks options are not great but at least everyone else will be playing in more favoured positions (assuming we buy Telles).

Maybe I'm missing something but Ole needs to try something different and start playing to people's strengths.

Dave

AWB Maguire Shaw

Dalot/James/Williams Telles?

DVB/Matic

Bruno Pogba

Rash Martial

Good point. OGS seems to be wedded to the 4-3-3 formation and that may explain why some of our players are underperforming

 

[kiristao]

The Totally Football Podcast spoke about our tactics against Palace and said we rely on AWB to shut down the right channel knowing no-one will get past and for Matic to aid the central defenders in a high line, with Shaw having licence to go forward because we know the back door hasn't been left open. They said the problems arise when we try the same tactics with players other than AWB and Matic who don't have the same attributes. Food for thought anyway.

I agree. I mentioned the same thing in the Mctominay thread about how him playing instead of Matic leaves us too vulnerable and forces Pogba and Bruno to fall too far back while Mctominay makes runs forward.
We need a proper DM to sit back and just let the front 5 do their thing with support from Shaw and AVB.

 

[padzilla]

Chelsea's two goals in the FA cup semi final too.

I think our CB's do not position themselves to cut the first ball in, how often have we put a low cross that is cut out by a defender on the near post? Defensive positioning has been poor.

I think it's a deliberate tactic our opponents have employed against us because they see the weaknesses. We actually haven't a bad defensive record but a high proportion of the goals we concede are embarrassing.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Ole has no system ???

How on earth did we finish 3rd then, beat Chelsea and City 3 times each in one season and only lose one league game against any top 6 club. Yes Liverpool away was our 1 and only only defeat to the top 6 in the PL.

This madness needs to stop. Everyone aim your anger to the board. Changing managers won't do anything. It hasn't in 7 years and it won't in the next 7 either.

So, everyone more or less agrees on that the owners/Woody etc are less than ideal from a fan point of view. Does this automatically excuse our manager regarding how we play? OGS could still have coached a certain approach on how to play during his 18+ months here regardless of who the owners/directors were. And it is not like they are saying how we should play or pick managers based on their prefered style of football.

The point with this thread is that OGS approach on how to play football is either not existing, not working or the players are not doing it due to certain factors. And given that the club has bought players for £200m+, lack of players should be an excuse for not being able to coach the team into playing a certain type of football regardless of us not having a long pre-season.

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

And I know we all keep banging on about our 3rd place finish but last season we got 66 points which left us 3rd.

The previous season we also got 66 point and finished 6th.

So no real indicator that we have actually improved only that our competition for 3rd place were worse than us

 

[passing-wind]

Solskjaer will never be held in regard to being tactically astute because for me it's just not something he's blessed with nor seemingly is keen to learn. At the same time while we look absolutely terrible when it comes to the fluidity of our play when you consider the numbers of our forwards last season and the chances created somehow you cannot totally throw Ole down under.

My problem is we do not impose ourselves on the opposition, we are very reactive to who we play and this creates an aura of weakness in the manager being unable to impose his will upon a game. I think reactive strategies should be used when out of possession. The problem is we seem to have no strategy when in possession, never once have I seen United under Ole deconstruct a teams defence without someone having to use an impulsive skill or decision leading to the breakthrough.

The only way Solskjaer will be a success is if he's backed financially with a very high tier of quality. I think if you give this United team to a more forward thinking manager we would be held in the same regard as the Liverpool's etc. Every man fit we have one of the best first 11 in the league with around two positions which could be considered weaknesses.

Sancho and a defender will not take us to a title, lingering above 5th for me is Ole's total contributive purpose if the destiny is for us to reach former glories. He will need to be replaced at some point unless he substantially grows with the development of the team.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Ole has no system ???

How on earth did we finish 3rd then, beat Chelsea and City 3 times each in one season and only lose one league game against any top 6 club. Yes Liverpool away was our 1 and only only defeat to the top 6 in the PL.

This madness needs to stop. Everyone aim your anger to the board. Changing managers won't do anything. It hasn't in 7 years and it won't in the next 7 either.

Very simply it will if you hire the right manager. Fans need to understand Ole and his coaching team can't just have a free ride because our board are greedy pigs - we still have a very good team and last season was woeful performance wise and very lucky there were only two good teams in the league. The enforced break essentially saved our season and then we went on that run to scrape into the top 4 - to get 66 points from a full season with 4 additional transfer, three of which were big signings (previously he got 66 points but obviously half the season was under Mou) is terrible.

How many times also does it need to be explained to people that United's tactical issue is exactly the reason why we beat City and Chelsea. We only really carry a threat on the counter and play an overly direct brand of football that only works when a team is brave/naïve enough to leave space for Rashford, Martial etc. Think of the teams who tried to play this way last season - City, Chelsea, Bournemouth under Howe, Norwich, Brighton, Leicester - we beat all of them home and away (bar a truly awful loss to B'mouth) but we never deviate from that style. We tried a back 5 a few times and just played the same way.

The way a lot of people on here act, its as if a manager has no power to improve players, to try innovative tactics in games and actually influence a result - they just put a team out and if it's not good enough they need to buy new players. I get we all love Ole but he has shown nothing that looks like we're building any kind of team. We have not changed how we press which was a huge part of his early interviews (and don't get me started on the whole 'we can't press without the players' when you see South-fkin-hampton building a pressing machine with bang average players, zero depth and getting Ings to 22 PL goals), very few of our players have improved & in fact most have suffered a regression in terms of reputation.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

And I know we all keep banging on about our 3rd place finish but last season we got 66 points which left us 3rd.

The previous season we also got 66 point and finished 6th.

So no real indicator that we have actually improved only that our competition for 3rd place were worse than us

He beat Pep Guardiola 3 times in one season. I'm sorry but you don't do that if you're a "PE teacher" as he's often unfairly referred to. Only two men have beaten him 3 times in one season in his entire managerial career. Klopp was one. Ole is the other.

He deserves a lot more credit than he's getting as he's basically peeing in the wind under Ed Woodforahead.

 

[Glideman]

I got to say this is quite crazy reaction based off one loss. Ole can still have a good season and his system can still work. For me Palace loss wasn’t a system issue more so players being sloppy/rusty. Over a season Ole has proven he can get us top 4 (I don’t buy the points argument as every season is different, so comparing points is just silly), he needs to be backed this transfer window and allowed to do his work. 95% of you probably can’t fully explain a teams system, so stop pretending you can. Is this forum gonna lose its mind every time we lose? Because we’re gonna lose some games this season...

 

[Beachryan]

He beat Pep Guardiola 3 times in one season. I'm sorry but you don't do that if you're a "PE teacher" as he's often unfairly referred to. Only two men have beaten him 3 times in one season in his entire managerial career. Klopp was one. Ole is the other.

He deserves a lot more credit than he's getting as he's basically peeing in the wind under Ed Woodforahead.

I believe he's also lost three times to Roy Hodgson in that time.

How do I interpret that?

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I believe he's also lost three times to Roy Hodgson in that time.

How do I interpret that?

That Hodgson is a better manager than OGS. It is pretty obvious.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

I believe he's also lost three times to Roy Hodgson in that time.

How do I interpret that?

Crystal Palace are unbeaten in Manchester (OT & the Etihad) in their last 5 outings. Beaten United twice and 1 draw. Beaten City once and drew the other. They are a well drilled defensive side who have players to hit well on the break. It's not really great coaching to play on the break. Ole himself has been accused of the same thing at times. You just need fit players and pace.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

That Hodgson is a better manager than OGS. It is pretty obvious.

He's beat Pep away and also drawn there too. Crap he must be better than him too then.

This way of thinking is so ridiculous. Anyone can beat anyone in this league. Norwich beat City last season.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

He's beat Pep away and also drawn there too. Crap he must be better than him too then.

This way of thinking is so ridiculous. Anyone can beat anyone in this league. Norwich beat City last season.

Arteta is the king though since he beat the golden trio on this forum. OGS , Pep and Klopp.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Arteta is the king though since he beat the golden trio on this forum. OGS , Pep and Klopp.

Between Bruno's debut and the final game of the season....Ole got the most points out of all 20 managers. Not bad for somebody with no plan and tactics.

Is he the best manager in the league? No.
Is he the best manager we could realistically employ? Maybe not.
Are the parasites and Ed Woodward always going to always be the main issue? Yes.

Let's try to deal with the biggest problem perhaps. Sacking yet another manager (ridiculous to even contemplate this 1 game into a season) is nothing short of pathetic. Fans who say this aren't proper United fans. Glory hunting spoiled brats.

 

[Dve]

Football is not so much about having one specific system, as having tools to meet different challenges. If you look at Liverpool, they score goals in so many different ways. The long ball behind the opponents backline, the headers from crossers or corners, the individual brilliancy from wings and wingbacks taking on players one on one, the tic-tac through the middle, shots from distance, the counter attack.

While we do have some of that - especially shots from distance with Fernandes and Greenwood - we did not have the tools to open up a packed and narrow defence against Palace, as we were unable to create anything from the sides with Rashford out of from and James unable to take on players, and the lack of physicality (or anyone at all) in the box to get on the end of those few crossers. In a game like this, I actually think it would be better to switch Pogba and Fernandes, with Pogba running into the box.

 

[glazed]

One of the greatest joys of watching live football (again - it has to be from a decent vantage point) is to be able to follow a single player over a sustained period: watch when he starts, when he stops - when he jogs, when he sprints. And so forth.

I really wish tv broadcasters would provide wider angles. In the era of huge tvs and 4k images, it seems like something they could do. It's the most annoying thing about watching on tv that you can't see the whole formation

 

[matt23]

I can see a system that was working pretty well, until we played Southampton in July.

They had it sussed - and every team we have played since has been the same. Any results we got after the Southampton game last season were mainly due to Bruno and Martial being outstanding, creating chances from relatively nothing.

Having said that - I wrote Ole off big time last season and ended up feeling like a right muppet - so I'm reluctant to outright blame him, for what would appear (to me at least) to be a system of play that every team is expecting - and have worked out how to suppress.

 

[AaronRedDevil]

Managers with a proven track records of success and overachieving. Moreover, with an attacking philosophy and a good player managment and player development capabilities that uses the most innovative sport science equipment. Easily, Pochettino or Nagelsman. That is all we need at United with a few player to return to glory.

Moyes.

 

[Bebestation]

I want nagelsmann because I'm tired of managers who come with one formation, one type of striker they use (Mourinho), one type of midfielder they use (Moyes & Mourinho) one type of formation they use (Ole, Jose) etc.

I want a manager who is flexible with his tactics. That's how you build a style by building around the players you have; not buying players to fit in to your style 24/7.

 

[He'sRaldo]

This article explains the issue quite well, I feel.