Well said.
Ole when sacked vs Ten Hag currently
- Thread starter Scandi Red
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I'm genuinely confused about what point you are trying to make here?
Yes he was a bad appointment, yes he would have been a bad appointment with less experience. We are agreed there. The point is that we knew he wasn't good enough and still gave him the biggest job in football for three years.
At the start of the season, after having signed Ronaldo the in the summer and ended second the season before, the demand was to fight for the title. That's the team Hag inherited.
The expectation on here was almost unanimously to get back into the CL and maybe win a cup.
I dont really understand why a whole year of historical bad performances is just scrapped. We all want to forget that last Ole and Ralf year but that isnt fair. Expectations have to be adjusted.
The team that finished second and added over the top Ronaldo clearly wasnt able to fight for the title as the results showed. That same team with Ronaldo even more over the top and other players leaving surely wasnt still expected to fight for the title?
My point is that I don't believe we did know he wasn't good enough. As people have said, Ange and Klopp had all struggled at a lower level than the one they're thriving at now. If Pep hadn't been given the Barca job and had been stuck managing at some struggling relegation fodder, he wouldn't have been a bad manager just for failing to single-handedly turn them around.
My point is that not having any track record should never be a plus compared to someone who has a track record that isn't perfect.
Klopps gotten relegated more than you or me but I'd know who I'd appoint
Surely the goal post was moved after such a bad season, and we all agree that finishing 3rd was pretty good. Still, Ten Hag had pretty much the same squad - with some adjustments - that Ole started with in his last season. My point is that even after Ole brought us CL football two season in the row, a lot of fans wanted him gone because they didn't think he would be able to walk that last mile and become a real contender for the league title. I think we should keep that in mind when we are celebrating a 3rd place and currently are blaming the squad for being mid table. One is "the worst manager in the club's history", while the second one is "the best since Ferguson". Seems pretty unfair to me.
Not a single sane person expected us to fight for the title coming of our historically worst season in PL
The expectation was to get back into the CL after we had been there last two season??? The expectation was rather to improve on the second place. Ole's last season was a car crash and in the end, the club pretty much had no other choice but to sack him. But why do the fans have such low demands from Ten Hag in comparison?
The expectation on here was almost unanimously to get back into the CL and maybe win a cup.
I didn't say that. That was the expectation for Ole's last season, I'm not talking about Ten Hag.
Did you stop watching the season after the West Ham game or something?
Well speak for yourself on that one. You surely can't have believed that a couple of Norwegian trophies 6 or 7 years previously and the Cardiff debacle were enough of a track record to deserve the United job? He had never even been mentioned as being in contention for the United job, let alone any other top clubs, so it seems that people were pretty certain that he wasn't good enough.
Well I run a business and I would always take a young bright spark who lacked experience over somebody with 8 years of experience that had proven themselves to be mediocre. If you take a risk on the new bright spark and they turn out to be crap, well at least you were aiming high. If you appoint somebody that has a track record of mediocrity and they turn out to be crap then it's fully on you. Once the initial new manager bounce was over every football fan in the world - apart from a gang of delusional United fans and Norwegians - knew that Ole was not the guy to lead United back to the top.
I think, the main expectation was improving our team to play better football and win stuff. I don't think, I can remember a bigger portion of fans really thinking, we are up for the title. The 2nd place, as good as it sounded, came with a bit of context - a few of the usual contenders had offseasons and while we were in contention with City, something that would have fueled the hope for the following season, we bottled it as hard as we could have bottled it.
I can see where you are coming from, I think, Oles time is to a degree still connected with big money transfers that didn't work out and have haunted us, in parts even to this very day. Also, while many liked Ole and would have loved the fairy tale of having a club legend turning out as a great coach, people knew the chances were pretty slim. And at the end of the day, the time under Ole was a bit of a waste of time. The club didn't move into the right direction, it spent big amounts of money without getting anything out of it, the squad didn't improve, the technical level didn't improve. All that really stands to his name is helping with the foul mood after Mourinho. And even that is to a degree countered by the fact, that his style might have to take a share of the blame of a potential player power issue.
Exactly that. Ole was the right man at the right time - as the interim manager. Most of what followed the initial 8 to 10 weeks could have been seen as a warning sign. Many fans were hopeful, and why wouldn't they, just because Ole had some potential flaws didn't have to mean he couldn't pick a good team to balance his own shortcomings out. This is what was the great thing about Fergie after all. But it didn't work out and I don't think, we should archive this lesson as a suprising failure. It wasn't really suprising, the warning signs were there but too many wanted to believe in a dream.
Donny at left back? Genius.
It's actually pretty appalling that a club with the attacking history of United should only have scored 70+ goals just once in the post SAF era. That 73 goal tally under Ole was helped a fair bit by a suicidal Leeds and a 9-0 mauling of nine man Southampton but yes your point stands. It's still not that impressive though
.I can't help but feel a bit annoyed at how free scoring City and Liverpool have been down the years in comparison, even when their defence was sometimes a bit shaky. Even Arsenal hit 88 goals last season.
Agreed. Some of the stick he gets on here is absolutely out of order, yes he isn't Pep but he was far better than some give credit and we had some pretty enjoyable moments with him at the helm, a bright spot in a grim era.
It's a travesty. I don't buy this "defense wins you titles" stuff. Give me goals and plenty of them!It's actually pretty appalling that a club with the attacking history of United should only have scored 70+ goals just once in the post SAF era. That 73 goal tally under Ole was helped a fair bit by a suicidal Leeds and a 9-0 mauling of nine man Southampton but yes your point stands. It's still not that impressive though
I always felt we wouldn't get close to a serious challenge with Ole, but then, I'm not seeing how anyone can make it happen the way the club has been run.
In that context, I was happy enough with Ole as the one thing I knew for a fact was he would always, invariably, have the club's best interest at heart.
He got royally screwed over with Cristiano being dumped onto his lap. There was no way he could mesh Cristiano's demands and expectations (a mix of much needed high standards and egotistical delusion) with his management style.
As far as I can tell, ETHs wounds are more self-inflicted.
Either way, I don't get how people revel in piling shit on either, one because he is a legend and the other because he is our manager and you can only hope he can steer the ship in the right direction at the very least.
I'm not trying to be negative but when i saw our transfer business had finished in the summer my first thought was that our goal difference was probably going to be pretty awful again even if/when we finish top 4.
At a big club the expectations are such that you have to fix the now before developing the team for the long-term. So signing Casemiro is fine for the now if there's a long-term solution already at the club. And that longer-term solution is Kobbie Mainoo imo, who isn't a replica of Casemiro but he rather brings different qualities in the first phase of the build up. And those qualities that Mainoo brings to the midfield are a better fit for what ten Hag wants from his midfielders in possession. And I credit ten Hag for showing courage in believing in the ability of Mainoo. Sadly he got injured but I can see a midfield developing that will have the physical and technical ability to play through the thirds aswell as control/contain opposition transitions. I foresee two more midfielders arriving via the transfer window with one being the controller type and the other being more box to box with physical and athletic capabilities along with being capable technically. I still feel Casemiro has a role to play this season because he brings certain qualities that we're missing and his leadership and experience will aid the development of someone like Kobbie Mainoo. At Ajax, Overmars bought a midfielder (DM) called Edson Alvarez, and he wasn't good enough on the ball to be the first receiver in midfield, so ten Hag worked around his weaknesses and used his GK, CBs and fullbacks to progress the ball through the thirds.
The vision on where we want to be as a team under ten Hag is to create a team that has the capabilities to play the game in the opponent's half by playing through the thirds. And a lot of focus seems to be on how many points we got under previous managers and where we finished in the league etc. But the actual focus should be on how we can take steps towards the end goal. And what is stopping us from achieving our objective as far as developing the team towards a more proactive attacking play style. And if we currently look at our issues in the team outside of midfield, then it's clear to see that our high press is a weakness because one or both fullbacks are not pressing high and seem to be instructed to stay passive which leaves space for the opposing fullback to receive a clipped pass over the press where he's completely free.
Why that is happening imo is due to ten Hag not trusting the CBs to defend in 1v1s. Our man to man press isn't good enough because our rest defense (deeper line) is weak against the opponent's rest offense (advanced attackers). So you can only press as aggressively or effectively as strong as your backline allows you.
I think if we spent all our money on two CBs and two midfielders who are a fit for the aforementioned criterion, then in one window there will be a massive change imo.
This is kind of what I'm talking about. No mention any off-seasons last season, with Tottenham, Liverpool and Chelsea totally out of it.
I don't think failing at the youth Australian sides are enough of a track record for the Slurs job or that failing to be promoted for the 2nd division of Germany was a track record to get the Liverpool job but both Ange and Klopp have done well (so far in Ange's case)
I guess that's where we disagree. I don't think OGS's experiences proved he was mediocre. He was managing at a low level, obviously his achievements weren't great. A champions league win with Molde was unlikely. He wasn't tested at a semi-decent Premier league club for more than half a season at a Cardiff side that had a hated owner and recently sacked a popular manager.
I see your point but this talk is there. Right now, this very manager is at the helm and many people want to keep him, thats why his achievements aren't questioned that much (yet). But I am pretty sure I read that our spot in the league table last season was also a result of a few other teams falling off a little. Also, it was out there when the current season was predicted or there was talk about what a good season would be this year - there were people calling out that the outlook might be a bit dim, if our competitors get their act more together than some of them did last year.
Ole is a scapegoat. He did a far better job than people on here would have you believe.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. Both Ange and Klopp showed progression in their careers, and their final jobs before moving to Spurs/Liverpool were with big clubs at which they were both extremely successful. If Ange had won the Aussie league a couple of times 7 years ago, had a spell at Cardiff whereupon they were relegated and he was sacked the following season, returned to Oz with his tail between his legs to spend 3 further trophyless seasons do you think Spurs would have been interested? And the exact same goes for Klopp at Liverpool. Ole's career had never had that intermediate step of a Celtic or a Dortmund - and the one time he did step up a level he had been found wanting.
No, previous track record doesn't prove that someone is mediocre, but it's generally the best indicator that you have available. And the reason he hadn't had a Celtic or a Dortmund on his CV was purely because of that mediocre track record. Lovely guy, great player, but I never heard a single sentence from his mouth that gave the impression he had a sharp enough football brain, or a strong enough character, to manage United.
Anyway, we could bat this back and forth all day and it's not really getting us anywhere! On a kind of related topic I'm interested to see how Wazza does with Birmingham - I never had him down as a potential manager, but I've been hugely impressed whenever I've heard him speak since becoming a manager. Similarly Carrick who has got Boro back on track after a dodgy start to the season.
He was a fantastic care taker manager. He did an excellent job.
Agreed, and I don't want to underplay that amidst all of my criticism above. He did the job he was brought in to do initially exceptionally well.
To be honest, every team that won the league since we last won it can’t claim any real achievement because they did it when we were in an off period.
very interesting, cheers @Adnan
Are there any on here who would have Ole back in place of ETH? We’d have the dressing room run circles around him again and Maguire will be king of the roost.
So ETH's third place last season was a fake postion as well? Cause the same teams you listed were also totally out of it. I hate this sorta dumb arguments; teams still have to do their stuff to get into the position they finish.
I’m all for going back in time to debate alternative realities, but it’s pretty well established that Ole lost control of the squad and that as a result our performances and results were dire.
But it does surprise me that Ole has yet to pick up another managing job. There have to be clubs in Belgium or wherever that need a decent manager.
But it does surprise me that Ole has yet to pick up another managing job. There have to be clubs in Belgium or wherever that need a decent manager.
There have been multiple reports that he has rejected multiple offers, even from the PL. Must be taking a long break from managing after the turmoil of his final season here; honestly I don't blame him, it seemed like he needed one at the time.
I find this statement bewildering. Either I know absolutely nothing about football or you do. I'm really not sure which.
I suspect his next job will be managing his national team or maybe a Norwegian side, I don't see him mangaing in the UK again
Unless it would abrogate a stream of payments per his contract with United, I can’t see why Ole would refuse job offers from other clubs. It’s now been two years almost to the day, has it not? He’s got to get on with his career and life and put United behind him, unless it would jeopardize too much lost revenue from United.
No no. Only Ole's second place was fake. Ten Hag's third place not. Kinda.
I didn’t know it was well established. I suspect this is just something that gets said a lot by people who don’t actually know.
He made some mistakes, certainly. Results were terrible by the end. It happens to nearly every coach at some point. Results turn bad and confidence and form spiral and there’s just no rescuing it.
The team were trying to take the blame, and rallying around Ole, as I remember it. They would have known their performances were going to get him fired but they just couldn’t do anything about it. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have been sacked but that’s football - results are everything in the end.
Jesus, this again? Ralf vs. Ole? Ralf had the worst win rate of any United manager since Frank O’Farrell at 35%. That’s 50 years. We probably weren’t going to win anything of significance with Ole, but Ralf Rangnick was far worse as a manager.
I dunno mate. With each passing day, I become more convinced that the real issue is the Glazers, and until we are rid of them, we’ll continue to underperform. It’s a testament to Sir Alex’s greatness that he was able to overcome the vile, weak, and incompetent management of the club by the Glazers.