Excellent, balanced post.
Omar Berrada | Man Utd CEO
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If you apply this logic then Ole was a good manager. Just get him back in. Klopp was a good manager even when he was loosing because he was implementing a style of play that worked all the time and he managed to get good players recruited not donkeys. Put it this way. Lets rate Ten Haag on manager attributes -
1) Style of play - 1/10 - Forget Ajax. He said he wont play that way. At United his style of play is dogsht. Its boring counter attacking and has no midfield resulting in the likes of getting spanked to fk out of Liverpool etc. Literally spanked to fk.
2) Results - 7/10 last season. 2/10 this season. 4/10 average over his time here. Add some points for winning a cup. Good enough?
3) Recruitment - Yes it was Ten Haag that wanted all these donkeys. Apart from Martinez is his signings working out? Casemiro another plus but old and doesnt fit a one man midfield. 5/10? At best.
4) Man management - Sorted out the Ronaldo, Greenwood, Sancho situations and seemed to bond the players last year. On the other hand some could say he has fallen out with a lot of players and this season we dont seem all happy and United. 6/10?
5) Tactics - 5/10. Done some good sht like Weghorst midfield seemed to work against Barca but overall in game substitutes and the fact we get spanked to sht indicates tactics are off. Linked to style of play.
I totally agree with you that we should stick with the Manager and support him in bad times and good BUT and this is a big BUT only if we believe in his vision and direction. Do we really want counter attacking football with one 6 and two 8's? Do we trust in his recruitment? Do we believe Antony, Onana etc are going to lead us to the promised land? Funnily enough Im not Ten Haag out - yet. I actually think getting players back he will start to turn things around. Heck we might even go on a 10 game winning streak. But long term is this way of playing going to work? Is his ideas of what a good player is going to ever work? Its hard to be a believer.
I agree with everything. Good post.
If by “the club” they meant Ratcliffe/Ineos, then yes I’m sure they will have taken it into account.
Some players might leave if they actually love football and want playing time.
Agreed. Good post. Although disagree with your conclusion. No way in hell we're going on a 10 game win streak for example. There is no missing ingredient that turns us from mid table to title challenging form. People were hoping Mainoo would come in and fix everything, now that hasn't worked it's Casemiro (despite him being in woeful form this season pre injury). Ten Hag has got the lowest win streak and unbeaten streak out of all United Managers post Sir Alex. Common sense indicates that the rest of the season will continue to be a disaster.
Past performance proves that statement totally wrong.
Maguire, Mctominay, Martial, Jones all have had the chance to leave for more playing time, but were offered less money at the receiving club.
Probably one of the most balanced, non emotive post I’ve read on the CAF. Superb
I disagree.
That's just nonsense. Our fan base is extremely patient, perhaps too patient. We actually support the Manager through shite and only really turn when things get REALLY bad. Even then the home support is generally positive at the matches. Most of us if you look at pre season predictions/hopes didn't think we'd win the title, a natural progression of being in the title race was what most hoped for. While others were happy with a Top 4 place and challenging in the cups.
I thought we rejected the Mctominay move? Didn’t someone come in for him but we wanted more money. As Martial had the chance? Not seen him linked with anyone and rightly so. He’s forever injured and useless so who’s gonna want to pay for him and his wages. His contract will be ran down at best.
Going on win percentage, Mourinho is United best manager up to EtH with a 58% win rate in all competitions. Solksjaer is close behind with a win rate of 53% in all competitions.
The BEST by a long shot, (so far) is EtH, P79 W49. D9 L21 GPGF 1.67 GPGA 1.18 with a win rate of 62% in all competitions.
So compared to the likes of Moyes, Van Gaal and Rangnik, Olé was a good manager !
As for you comment about man management, (ignore Greenwood, because he basically had nothing to do with that, it's been awful, he's failed to solve anything that has come his way, his only way of dealing with it, is to ignore it, and hope it will go away!
His stand against Sancho is costing the club £5m in wages !
From what I've read and heard about, there are very few players in the squad he hasn't fallen out with.
I'd also debate whether is was him that actually said he wanted a particular player, or even named them, Antony probably being the major exception, you only have to look at the Fellani purchase to know that the previous board went with what was available rather than what was needed.
I suppose it depends on which source you believe, according to the slow talker (Kaveh Solhekol) on Sky, he turned down West Ham because of an inferred drop in pay, as did Maguire.
What's the basis for this? There was a case for it when he was back at Ajax and was still a prospect, I thought so too, but right now there's absolutely nothing to base that claim on. The football is awful, the recruitment is awful, the tactics are very naive and predictable. Good managers have had his number for a while now. His predecessors dealt with the same stuff, yet he is in contention for worst manager of the past decade. And he has been given a lot of leeway to work.
He was always a calculated risk and between him and Pochettino, he was the better choice. But it hasn't panned out. He isn't the first and won't be the last to fail to make the step up.
I like what you wrote and I agree. Unfortunately this place has become difficult to articulate these opinions as you've obviously seen from the responses. I just dont bother anymore but thanks for trying.
But Caf mentality is we only give a player two months, two years is too long.
Yeah, patient fanbase that writes off any new player after few months, right.
Our fanbase is most spoiled and childish out there, patient my arse.
I agree its unlikely but we have seen it before with this United team. They can go beat City, beat PSG and do some crazy sht. Go on a winning streak. We did last year. If Rashford decides to do a 2 month madness before downing tools again you never know. Its unlikely but I wouldn't say impossible.
This - but with the opposite conclusion. Ten Hag fluked the 3rd place last year - the underlying data didn't really support a 3rd placed finish and everyone started supporting him because he got us into the CL and a mickey mouse cup. Now the chickens have come home to roost.
Even if you are a person that doesn't believe in football stats, the football has to pass the eye test and 1.5 years in we still don't have decent out of possession system. Out of possession is the easiest way to evaluate manager chops - it doesn't matter if it's Pep or Big Sam it's the great leveler - general footballing ability (passing, technique, finishing etc.) is taken out of the picture and the only thing that matters is how well a coach organizes. Right now it's clear as daylight for me that we still cannot press and find solutions to disrupt opposition build up play.
You can ignore the generally poor build up play and make excuses for it by claiming player injuries or the lack of goals by claiming we don't have good attackers but with rest defence and transition to rest defence the only thing that matters is how well coached a team is.
So what's the redeeming factor? Poor transfers - seemingly has no sense of player ability, Poor attack - no goals in both seasons, Poor defence. If there was something to hold on to, I'd hold on to it and support the manager but right now there's nothing. We're on track for a points total this season that's significantly worse than Moyes.
I feel you have to sperate win percentages between seasons. You cant be first then drop to last over a long period of games and still be seen as a good manager.
If the board decided to get all ETHs last players without his consent then thats a wild conspiracy theory. You actually think they just did that and without even asking him? That would be some crazy sht, up there with flat earth theory and aliens. And if they did ask him then what did he say? Did he say Antony is sht dont do it and they went and it it anyway? Surprise! Look what we got you! 100 million Euros! Bargain! Its nonsense. ETH has said himself it was him and Woodward doing the recruiting
There is no way we are selling Rashford and Bruno this summer,however agree we need to make some big calls
Absolutely spot on!
Worst thing we could do right now is get rid of ETH. I’m absolutely convinced if he’s given time and a better structure around him he’ll achieve stuff here.
Weird to see this consensus being thrown around caf, as reading it last 6 months, feels like everybody is hell bent on getting rid of manager, and get the next one off the conveyor belt.
90% of caf thinks it will take another manager to win a world cup.
the guy Paratici at Spurs was given a worldwide ban (and sacked) in light of his involvement at Juventus.
Really good post! It’s just been hard to blindly support us when the glazers have slowly sucked all the soul and enjoyment out of it.
Absolutely correct. It's crazy how impatient and spoiled some of our fans are. You would think that people have learned something after 10 years with different managers, different playing styles and players, that there is clearly something fundamentally wrong with the club.But Caf mentality is we only give a player two months, two years is too long.
Yeah, patient fanbase that writes off any new player after few months, right.
Our fanbase is most spoiled and childish out there, patient my arse.
There is no doubt that Erik ten Hag is a good manager. He didn't become a bad manager overnight. His problem is that he alone cannot change everything that needs to be done, just as it was not possible for LvG, Mourinho, Solskjær or Rangnick.
We can be extremely happy that Ineos and Sir Jim are in and that they have a plan to structure the club. Not least bringing in the best for the various important roles.
It makes absolutely no sense to fire EtH at this point. Not least, it will be very exciting to see what he can actually achieve with the new structure and management.
I personally think the pile on on ETH has been way over the top. I absolutely think he’s made mistakes this year but he’s far from alone in the poor showing this season.
I’m also a huge believer that you only get rid of a manager if there’s a better alternative out there. I just don’t see who’s available that would come in and do a better job considering the shit show that the club has been in for some time.
As was posted before, ETH hasn’t become a bad manager over night. Given time, a better structure around him, more belief and confidence in and around the club and I really do think we can turn a corner and show what we’re capable of.
I’m so fed up of the ‘sack the manager rinse and repeat cycle’ that we’ve been on.
I didn't say that did I?
The conversation probably went along the lines of, we can't get you so & so, or your second choice, but Casemiro is keen to come here.
Knowing United of old, I have a strong sense it was 90% Woodward and 10% EtH, no manager ever got the player(s) they wanted with Woodward in charge.
I dont think it is a 90% group. It is just a very loud group that will use any chance to post their sack the manager stuff on whatever the subject is.
I would think so.
Ole is a vastly inferior manager to Jose but that swap turned around a season in terminal death throws. If only we'd kept Ole as interim.
You should only keep a manager if they give you reasons to. Either through constant progression in results, or at least showing they have good foundations to build on (style of play the obvious one).
I highly doubt this, he's been given a lot of freedom at United to shape the squad and determine the directive of the philosophy etc you seldom have that opportunity at other clubs. United might be underperforming in recent history but the coaching role is still in the top percentile of elite club's for a manager. A manager who wins competitively at the club will become reputable to be the very best among coaches in Europe. You cannot throw Klopp into that comparison he's a proven elite manager and his very worst of the last season was 5th, his higher criteria of managerial standard enabled Liverpool to only underperform but they didn't capitulate. Erik's worst is a more detrimental bottom he's on track to have the worst season of any manager since SAF retired.
Erik lacks charisma and from a man management perspective doesn't entice big personalities or ego's. I think he would land on his feet with a club that's around Real Sociedad, Dortmund or Leipzig level. Italy could be a good move for him, in recent seasons other clubs have won the domestic league other than Juventus. There's a distinction between doing very good at those clubs previously mentioned compared to very good at United. Klopp has done very good at Liverpool hence he's arguably the best it's attached itself with the accomplishments he's achieved given the dynamics and prestige of the club he's presently managing. Potter did very good at Brighton from the championship up. There's a lot of context around this.
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For every Ole you have a Lampard. We could get rid of ETH now but I think it’s much more likely we’ll land on a Lampard than have the turnaround we saw under Ole.
I don’t buy into the narrative that ETH hasn’t given us reasons to believe. Yes this season has been very poor but last season we won a cup, got to a final and finished 3rd. Before then, he was a very successful manager at Ajax with a defined style and good football on show.
The football we’re playing has been poor for sometime but look at what he’s had to deal with. I’m not saying he’s without fault but I see a lot to be hopeful for whereas others seem to have given up all hope and can’t see any hope of improvement.
COUGH! Ferguson, Charlton had to repeatedly convince the board to stick with him, it took him four years to win a trophy.
Well pretty much the entire online membership of the Caf have raised it, so it’s surely probable that the people with a serious financial (and reputational} interest in getting it right would have done so also!
Of course you would say that, Ten Hag can do nothing wrong according to you.
Good post
This bad time is self inflicted though, by his own admission he's abandoned his philosophies and what made many think he was special at Ajax in the first place, not to mention his transfer targets and squad building have done nothing but weaken us. He was good last year up to a point, as was Mourinho in his first season, and Solskjaer in his first few seasons, and so on and so forth. After a while the performances began declining. He also presided over the single most humiliating afternoon in the club's history. He also had us bottom of a pretty easy Champion's League group which is embarrassing in it's own right.
Likening him to Klopp is daft because Klopp had years of previous success in this league to fall back on to prove it was likely just a blip. Ten Hag has one decent year and one terrible year under his belt in the Premier League, Liverpool have also never been as bad under Klopp as we are currently under Ten Hag. How is it short-sighted to ask for some inkling of progress after 2 seasons? It's not just that the results are bad, the performances are bad, we're getting played off the park by clubs with a fraction of our resources, we're watching youth players we let go for peanuts feature in the same division we're in and do a better job than those still at United.
It's all good and well saying he'll go off to Bayern or Dortmund and be some great success but it doesn't at all add to your point because that hasn't happened yet, it's complete fantasy. What we've got to go off is what we're seeing on the pitch and what we're seeing on the pitch is an unmitigated disaster that he's spearheading and failing to correct. He spent hundreds of millions in the summer and we're significantly worse. Is that really the hallmark of a great manager? Good managers see steady and continual progress after each transfer window, not getting worse and worse. Tottenham Hotspur have just come to Old Trafford and played us off the park missing nearly all of their best players under the leadership of a manager who's not even been there a year.
It's a load of bull shit to accuse the fanbase of being solely reliant on winning, how can that be the fecking case when we've done nothing but fail for 10 years and yet we're all still here? Time and patience should be earned, not guaranteed by a meek fanbase happy to watch us wane and falter while our rivals sweep up Champion's Leagues, trebles and surpass us on and off the pitch in every conceivable way.
I'm not saying underpay the players. But only pay them a similar amount as what they would get elsewhere. We've consistently had one of the highest wages in the world, despite being nowhere near one of the best teams in the world and our players being nowhere near the best in the world.
We currently have a third of the top 18 highest paid players in the league. Our wage bill is only slightly behind City, 10% higher than Arsenal and 35% higher than Liverpool. We bring in players like Antony and pay them 8 times what they were making at their previous club. The likes of Rashford and Martial have spent most of their time here on a similar wage as Salah, despite an obvious gulf in quality and performances. We buy older players who come to us almost as a retirement home as we offer more than what they would get elsewhere. And so on. Our wage scale is simply massively overblown and needs to be bought back to the pack.
Our online fan base maybe. Our match going fanbase are very patient, this can't even be questioned.But Caf mentality is we only give a player two months, two years is too long.
Yeah, patient fanbase that writes off any new player after few months, right.
Our fanbase is most spoiled and childish out there, patient my arse.
I suppose it's a hangover from the Glazers and their inept management of the footballing side of things. It will take some getting used to.