OranjeCafe: The Netherlands at the World Cup

[Zes]

I'm quite hopeful. The squad doesn't look so glamorous, but that's mostly cause the defense is young and unknown outside The Netherlands.
If the defense is well organized with de Jong in front of them, anything can happen.
I guess lots will depend on the first game, hold Spain off to have a chance to win the group and avoid Brazil.
Maybe just wishful thinking, maybe just excitement now the WC is approaching, but I'm feeling optimistic.

 

[sammyvine]

Is it just me who finds van gaal overrated

 

[bishblaize]

The squad doesn't look so glamorous...

Holland have often had amongst the most glamorous squads in international tournaments, hasn't helped before. Maybe a few less egos is a good thing?

 

[txred]

I've always liked the Dutch (the people and those orange kits are fantastic) and I'll be supporting them again this year. I'm not particularly well-read on the Dutch league, but many people seem to have optimism for the young players in defense and, to a lesser extent, midfield. If not for the loss of Strootman, I'd reckon that this squad would be much more favored to make a splash.

That said, even with Strootman out, I think the Dutch may surprise many. As the poster above alluded to, maybe the lack of glamour might be a good thing for once. Regardless, let's not forget that they made the final last time around with van Bommel pairing de Jong in midfield, Kuyt and Elia (remember him?) playing major minutes, and an well-past-their-best back line often consisting of any number of Mathijsen, Oiijer (for a quarterfinal), van Bronckhorst, and Boulahrouz. Point being, it would be foolish to suggest the lack of familiar faces equals a doomed campaign.

Even if van Gaal isn't a savior in your estimation, you'd have to agree that he is more capable, progressive, and able to facilitate expansive, effective football than van Marwijk. Do I think we'll see a repeat of 2010? No, but I doubt it'll be another Euro 2012, either.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

On the one hand I want them to get knocked out early so we can get van Gaal in as soon as possible and concentrate on pre-season and implementing his ideas and system on the team. On the other hand though I want them to do well as it will show just what a quality manager he is, especially with this current Dutch team, probably their weakest in years.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Is it just me who finds van gaal overrated

Don't take anyone's word for it. Read his CV, countless essays and articles about his connections in the whole Europe he built in the last 25 years.

 

[Sixpence]

Is it just me who finds van gaal overrated

Probably.

 

[AjaxNL]

I am not allowed to post in the van Gaal thread, but maybe one of the main posters can copy my comments to that thread. He had a 5 minute interview with the NOS today (Dutch equivalent of BBC) and ofcourse the Man United topic came up. Even though he did not say it with that many words, he heavily implied that indeed beginning of next week he will be presented, before the next stage of the Dutch WC preparations start. If you guys want I can link the Dutch interview. I think he will be very good for you. One thing is for sure, he will get the most out of your youth department and as an Ajax fan myself, that is always the thing that excites me most.

 

[Thomas#7]

This has to be the poorest Dutch side in quite some time. Why have they stopped producing class players all of a sudden? When van Persie and Robben are no longer able to run they're fecked.

Their defence is hilarious.

 

[Sammyjunn]

This has to be the poorest Dutch side in quite some time. Why have they stopped producing class players all of a sudden? When van Persie and Robben are no longer able to run they're fecked.

Their defence is hilarious.

Depay, Zivkovic, Boetius, Vilhena, Klaassen, Willems, Van Dijk, Rekik are top prospects. But its because of the generation after rvp, the likes of Affelay, Elia, Babel, Drenthe, Donk, Vlaar, have not reached their potentials. They could all be top top players but they have the wrong mentality.

 

[Kloroform]

Can someone tell about the performance of Indi, blind, veltman kongolo, de vrij, janmaat. Let say if we compare to our man.utd defender right now or from Holland 2010. And for the GK, Cillessen, is he better than vorm/krul ? Because some info i read he is in the starting XI

 

[Sammyjunn]

Can someone tell about the performance of Indi, blind, veltman kongolo, de vrij, janmaat. Let say if we compare to our man.utd defender right now. And for the GK, Cillessen, is he better than vorm/krul ? Because some info i read he is in the starting XI

Cillissen is our best keeper. Indi has done quit well in Oranje but for Feyenoord he is nothing special. Blind is a very intelligent player who can play left back and DM. Veltman is a proper defender like Smalling some times, but sometimes they just make silly mistakes. Kongolo has played brilliantly since January, on the ball I have never seen a defender as good as him, thats why Feyenoord also plays him left back sometimes. De Vrij is nothing special..

 

[Pat_Mustard]

He certainly seems pissed about not being given the same importance as rvp and robben

He only has himself to blame for doing feck all at club level for years while RVP and Robben have been among the best in Europe. Its a shame as he was an awesome player at his peak.

 

[Stickert]

Cillissen is our best keeper. Indi has done quit well in Oranje but for Feyenoord he is nothing special. Blind is a very intelligent player who can play left back and DM. Veltman is a proper defender like Smalling some times, but sometimes they just make silly mistakes. Kongolo has played brilliantly since January, on the ball I have never seen a defender as good as him, thats why Feyenoord also plays him left back sometimes. De Vrij is nothing special..

You must be an Ajax supporter? Blind very intelligent player? On the ball he is quite good but way to slow to play at LB. De Vrij has 5 years experience yet you say he is nothing special. In my opinion he is better than Martins Indi and Veltman.

I hope Janmaat is going to start this saturday, probably our best defender together with de Vrij at the moment.

 

[Kanu]

Krul is our best keeper period.

 

[Midnight1811]

Hope they get knocked out early, so that LVG he has more time at united.

 

[Stickert]

On Fr12.nl it says this is going to be the line up for saturday with 5 Feyenoord players in the starting 11.

Vermoedelijke opstelling Nederlands elftal tegen Ecuador: Cillessen; Janmaat, De Vrij, Veltman, Martins Indi, Kongolo; Clasie, Blind, Wijnaldum; Depay en Van Persie.

 

[Sammyjunn]

You must be an Ajax supporter? Blind very intelligent player? On the ball he is quite good but way to slow to play at LB. De Vrij has 5 years experience yet you say he is nothing special. In my opinion he is better than Martins Indi and Veltman.

I hope Janmaat is going to start this saturday, probably our best defender together with de Vrij at the moment.

Slowness has nothing to do with intelligence. The Feyenoord players are so overrated, Janmaat better than van Rhijn, De Vrij better than Veltman, Indi better than Denswil, Clasie better than Blind, Vilhene better than Klaassen but yet Ajax has won the title again. Has beaten Feyenoord 3 times in 1 season.

 

[MTR]

Depay, Zivkovic, Boetius, Vilhena, Klaassen, Willems, Van Dijk, Rekik are top prospects. But its because of the generation after rvp, the likes of Affelay, Elia, Babel, Drenthe, Donk, Vlaar, have not reached their potentials. They could all be top top players but they have the wrong mentality.

Vlaar has wrong ACL.

 

[Cheesy]

Hope they get knocked out early, so that LVG he has more time at united.

I'm not sure. While it could be beneficial for us, he'll come with that pressure of people questioning him because of his poor tournament. Whereas if he comes having done well, there'll be a lot less pressure in that regard. Might not have much of an impact since he wouldn't really care if people doubted him, but it could help him starting nevertheless.

 

[Stadjer]

Slowness has nothing to do with intelligence. The Feyenoord players are so overrated, Janmaat better than van Rhijn, De Vrij better than Veltman, Indi better than Denswil, Clasie better than Blind, Vilhene better than Klaassen but yet Ajax has won the title again. Has beaten Feyenoord 3 times in 1 season.

Even in the Eredivisie Veltman makes a mistake almost every game... he shouldn't be anywhere near the NT. Virgil van Dijk or Douglas from Dinamo Moscow should have taken his place.

Janmaat is without a doubt the best RB in the Eredivisie, de Vrij had a bad period but recovered. Martens Indi is way better then Denswil, Denswil doesnt even play for Ajax (Veltman and Moisander are the starting centrebacks). Blind is slow but Clasie just lacks talent (and a brain, he even has a spelling mistake tattoo with 'you are my everyting'). Klaassen looks like he could become a great player but so does Vilhena.

 

[Kloroform]

I hope der oranje will not get knocked in the group stage, it will give Van Gaal and RvP more pressure when they are in United. I still believe they can win against chile

 

[Maroo]

He only has himself to blame for doing feck all at club level for years while RVP and Robben have been among the best in Europe. Its a shame as he was an awesome player at his peak.

True. I remember reading an article by Jonathan Wilson on how he is the playmaking past, Ozil the present and Kroos the future. Actually, its also a pity that Kroos gets to play only in such a deep role these days.

Just found the article:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/apr/04/playmaker-toni-kroos-mesut-ozil

 

[Sammyjunn]

Even in the Eredivisie Veltman makes a mistake almost every game... he shouldn't be anywhere near the NT. Virgil van Dijk or Douglas from Dinamo Moscow should have taken his place.

Janmaat is without a doubt the best RB in the Eredivisie, de Vrij had a bad period but recovered. Martens Indi is way better then Denswil, Denswil doesnt even play for Ajax (Veltman and Moisander are the starting centrebacks). Blind is slow but Clasie just lacks talent (and a brain, he even has a spelling mistake tattoo with 'you are my everyting'). Klaassen looks like he could become a great player but so does Vilhena.

Oke how often have you seen Virgyl van Dijk play, he is a big hype here in Holland but the Scottisch league is lower than the Eredivisie. That guy is very overrated imo. He would get a fair chance if he played at a better club.

 

[Adnan]

Holland V Ecuador is live on MUTV tomorrow

 

[Stickert]

I live in the Netherlands, does anyone know if I can watch Netherlands vs Ecuador on MUTV?

 

[The Mitcher]

I live in the Netherlands, does anyone know if I can watch Netherlands vs Ecuador on MUTV?

Stream it! I have no idea if MUFC is broadcast in other countries.

 

[Litmanen]

But we still have 2010 to think about with joy from time to time, so it's alright.

2010 was a disgrace.

But yes, of course, if we'd have won it I would be very happy

Seeing this new 5-3-2 I wonder why Emanuelson wasn't called up, and a huge shame that van der Wiel is injured. No faith in our Eredivisie defense (and that includes Veltman). I'll be positively surprised with anything more than a 3rd place in the group.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

2010 was a disgrace.

But yes, of course, if we'd have won it I would be very happy

Seeing this new 5-3-2 I wonder why Emanuelson wasn't called up, and a huge shame that van der Wiel is injured. No faith in our Eredivisie defense (and that includes Veltman). I'll be positively surprised with anything more than a 3rd place in the group.

Emanuelson, now that would've been a proper disgrace. I understand you like him if you're an Ajax fan and he's an alright player, especially on the ball. But he's not fast and he can not defend either. Have you seen him play as a left back for Milan this season? He was so bad sometimes it was ridiculous, Blind and Van Aanholt have had way better seasons, so I don't miss Emanuelson at all.

What's up with the picture by the way?

 

[Litmanen]

You must be an Ajax supporter?

On Fr12.nl it says this is going to be the line up for saturday with 5 Feyenoord players in the starting 11.

Yeah, I'm sure you're much more objective.

This Feyenoord defence has had 40 goals against this season in 34 domestic Dutch matches. But ok, this isn't a place for rivalries, Veltman doesn't impress me that much either recently and Blind as a leftback is just scary.

 

[Litmanen]

Emanuelson, now that would've been a proper disgrace. I understand you like him if you're an Ajax fan and he's an alright player, especially on the ball. But he's not fast and he can not defend either. Have you seen him play as a left back for Milan this season? He was so bad sometimes it was ridiculous, Blind and Van Aanholt have had way better seasons, so I don't miss Emanuelson at all.

But isn't that where you need him in this tactic, on the ball? As a normal back in 4-3-3 he'd be a disaster, I agree. But this would be more like a left midfielder, if I understand correctly.

And he's always been good in big matches, I think.

What's up with the picture by the way?

Just to express my confusion about your 2010 happiness But not very important anyway

 

[::sonny::]

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[Henrik Larsson]

But isn't that where you need him in this tactic, on the ball? As a normal back in 4-3-3 he'd be a disaster, I agree. But this would be more like a left midfielder, if I understand correctly.

And he's always been good in big matches, I think.



Just to express my confusion about your 2010 happiness But not very important anyway

Yeah sure, if we play with 5 at the back he would be suited for that. But Emanuelson filled in at left back at Ajax sometimes too, and if you compare him to Blind playing left back at Ajax, Blind is way better at it I think. And our backs need to fill the whole flank in the new defensive set-up, since we have no wingers. So Van Aanholt is very suited for that too, faster, stronger and better stamina than Emanuelson, plus it is his natural position. So all in all I'd say it's a logical choice. Would probably even prefer Kongolo or Willems (haha) over Emanuelson at left back. On the right it's more difficult, I really like Janmaat on the one hand, but he is not that good and he's only really tested in the Dutch league. If Van der Wiel would've been fit I'd perhaps choose him over Janmaat, Van der Wiel has a better technique. But Van Gaal liked Janmaat over Van der Wiel most of the qualifiers.

About 2010, still makes me happy, great tournament for us, very exciting matches. But all in all I agree with you (en met Ronald Waterreus, die heel verbaasd kijkt) we played really poor, badly even. But our team performance was great, Kuyt trashed Maicon against Brazil, lol that was great. And I mostly remember Mark van Bommel vs Uruguay in the semi's, just kicking and fouling every Uruguayan moving, shouting 'PUTA!' in their face every time they went down to the ground

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Does anyone know if the Netherlands vs Ecuador game being shown on MUTV is free to anyone or is it subscribers only??

 

[Stadjer]

Oke how often have you seen Virgyl van Dijk play, he is a big hype here in Holland but the Scottisch league is lower than the Eredivisie. That guy is very overrated imo. He would get a fair chance if he played at a better club.

I disagree, i saw him play for FC Groningen quite a few times and already he was one of the better defenders in the Eredivisie. He just had a hopeless partner in Kees Kwakman (worse player ever). In my opinion Ajax or PSV should have bought him. He's big, strong, quick and has decent technique. Also he played quite well in the CL against a fairly decent team called FC Barcelona. i admit he can be prone to lose concentration and make a mistake but no more than Joel Veltman. Virgil van Dijk should atleast been given a chance in a friendly.

I think Celtic isnt his last club, he will find a better one in a better division. A mid table premier league club would be great for him.

 

[Kloroform]

Can someone elborate more about 'total football' ? What is the difference with other philosophies ? Let say with tiki taka.

I have tried to see in youtube some compilation of ajax 95. It's similar with dortmund style or germany in 2010. Fast, direct, pressing. Am i wrong ?

 

[Sammyjunn]

I disagree, i saw him play for FC Groningen quite a few times and already he was one of the better defenders in the Eredivisie. He just had a hopeless partner in Kees Kwakman (worse player ever). In my opinion Ajax or PSV should have bought him. He's big, strong, quick and has decent technique. Also he played quite well in the CL against a fairly decent team called FC Barcelona. i admit he can be prone to lose concentration and make a mistake but no more than Joel Veltman. Virgil van Dijk should atleast been given a chance in a friendly.

I think Celtic isnt his last club, he will find a better one in a better division. A mid table premier league club would be great for him.

Denswil was also impressive against Barcelona in the CL so that says almost nothing. I do agree with you that he should have been given one chance.

 

[Wibble]

Sounds live RvP will be fit in time

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/16/robin-van-persie-confident-injury-world-cup-holland

 

[Mezano]

Can someone elborate more about 'total football' ? What is the difference with other philosophies ? Let say with tiki taka.

I have tried to see in youtube some compilation of ajax 95. It's similar with dortmund style or germany in 2010. Fast, direct, pressing. Am i wrong ?

In 'Total football' or 'Hollandse school' players move in to any available space left open by the opponent, regardless of their normal position on the field, to overload the opponents lines. Anyone not involved in play is supposed to cover a position left open by the player moving up. It's a very direct system with frequent cross passes to find openings. Pressing is only used during attacking phases to retain the ball and not be caught out of position.

Total football has struggled since 2005 as it is an attacking system that relies heavily on a high line and the offside trap for defense. Players that cover for defenders that move up are not very good in actual man marking. That was far less of a problem with the old offside rules where good positioning skills could compensate for a lack of defensive ability.

Tiki taka uses similar ideas about exploiting space to deal with the challenges or modern football. It utilizes the key player of Spanish football, the passing midfielder, to retain possession to both protect the high defensive line and to probe the opponents defense and force turn overs. Total football is far less about possession, as it wants the opponent to come out of defense to open up space. Van Gaal at Ajax once mentioned he considered 55% possession ideal for his type of football.

Dortmund use a counterattacking style that uses pressing and free-flowing football.

 

[Kloroform]

In 'Total football' or 'Hollandse school' players move in to any available space left open by the opponent, regardless of their normal position on the field, to overload the opponents lines. Anyone not involved in play is supposed to cover a position left open by the player moving up. It's a very direct system with frequent cross passes to find openings. Pressing is only used during attacking phases to retain the ball and not be caught out of position.

Total football has struggled since 2005 as it is an attacking system that relies heavily on a high line and the offside trap for defense. Players that cover for defenders that move up are not very good in actual man marking. That was far less of a problem with the old offside rules where good positioning skills could compensate for a lack of defensive ability.

Tiki taka uses similar ideas about exploiting space to deal with the challenges or modern football. It utilizes the key player of Spanish football, the passing midfielder, to retain possession to both protect the high defensive line and to probe the opponents defense and force turn overs. Total football is far less about possession, as it wants the opponent to come out of defense to open up space. Van Gaal at Ajax once mentioned he considered 55% possession ideal for his type of football.

Dortmund use a counterattacking style that uses pressing and free-flowing football.

Thanks. I somehow think kagawa and cleverley will have a good season next after reading your explanation