Our Collapses

[Cassidy]

United have won the FA Cup once in 17 years. These so called collapses have been happening long before Ole arrived as manager..

Irrelavent. This is Oles squad

 

[charlenefan]

I struggle with the idea that dropped points against the bottom 10 and as a result of an inability to see out games are somehow more acceptable because we "weren't going to win the title anyway". Do you struggle with a basic understanding of how competitive sports work?

did I say it was acceptable?

 

[bsCallout]

So you're saying Ole who finished 14 points clear of Leicester in his first season and having De Gea who still wasn't in full decline, Shaw, Pogba, Martial, Rashford, finding a fantastic talent in Greenwood, having decent talents like Fred (yes he is) Bailly, Tuanzebe. Leicester losing their best (?) defender to us and Ole spending 300m and they're still a better team than us throughout?

Maybe coaching a team is more important than people think.

So you're saying Ole who finished 14 points clear of Leicester in his first season and having De Gea who still wasn't in full decline, Shaw, Pogba, Martial, Rashford, finding a fantastic talent in Greenwood, having decent talents like Fred (yes he is) Bailly, Tuanzebe. Leicester losing their best (?) defender to us and Ole spending 300m and they're still a better team than us throughout?

Maybe coaching a team is more important than people think.

You've ignored the point of the post too. But yes I don't believe there is much between the squads. The fact you tried including an injury prone Bailly and liabilities like Fred and Tuanzabe probably says as much.

I also agree coaching is important but that wasn't the point of my original post.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

You've ignored the point of the post too. But yes I don't believe there is much between the squads. The fact you tried including an injury prone Bailly and liabilities like Fred and Tuanzabe probably says as much.

I also agree coaching is important but that wasn't the point of my original post.

If the point of the post is we have to prioritise games then I'm in agreement with you but like all of Oles tenure we haven't. Quite the opposite in fact. Last season rushing back Pogba against the mighty Rochdale which cost him half a season. Playing Rashford against Wolves when everyone could see he needed a rest and ended up with a double stress fracture. Didn't Lingard come on after an injury and lasted 10 minutes or was that the season before? Ole not knowing whether to stick or bust against against Chelsea in the FA Cup, ending up doing neither and it almost cost us top 4.

This season going all out in the carling Cup. Bringing on key pieces of our team against Sociedad after winning the first leg 4-0 when they should of been at home with their feet up. Even the game against Leicester going into an international break he decides to rest key players instead of pushing for a semi final knowing we don't have any games for the next 2 weeks. Not to mention league games where he's continually run his players into the ground. His prioritising has been a mitigating disaster.

Going back to the Rodgers point. If Ole finished 14 points above Leicester in his first season and spent twice as much in the transfer market shouldn't some serious questions be asked as to why Leicester are now our equal almost 2 years later?

 

[bsCallout]

If the point of the post is we have to prioritise games then I'm in agreement with you but like all of Oles tenure we haven't. Quite the opposite in fact. Last season rushing back Pogba against the mighty Rochdale which cost him half a season. Playing Rashford against Wolves when everyone could see he needed a rest and ended up with a double stress fracture. Didn't Lingard come on after an injury and lasted 10 minutes or was that the season before? Ole not knowing whether to stick or bust against against Chelsea in the FA Cup, ending up doing neither and it almost cost us top 4.

This season going all out in the carling Cup. Bringing on key pieces of our team against Sociedad after winning the first leg 4-0 when they should of been at home with their feet up. Even the game against Leicester going into an international break he decides to rest key players instead of pushing for a semi final knowing we don't have any games for the next 2 weeks. Not to mention league games where he's continually run his players into the ground. His prioritising has been a mitigating disaster.

Going back to the Rodgers point. If Ole finished 14 points above Leicester in his first season and spent twice as much in the transfer market shouldn't some serious questions be asked as to why Leicester are now our equal almost 2 years later?

No I think that's a bizarre way to look at it how far behind they were in Ole first season. Look how far ahead we'll be of Liverpool this season.

We are in agreement about prioritising which falls on Ole, the problem is had we gone out of Europa and the Carling cup like Leicester, our fans would be even more furious with Ole.

Then comes the question of what to prioritise next season. You always want to prioritise CL and Prem but is there any point in missing out on the chance of the FA Cup to face our inevitable failure in the CL anyway?

 

[SuperiorXI]

For me it's a reflection of the whole squad including the coaches and manager. We're not quite there, but heading in a positive direction. This year I wanted to see us win a cup so if we don't win the EL you have to say the progress has slowed quite a bit.

Everyone knows the team isn't complete yet, we still have big issues with the starting 11 and then there's the question of the bench. Other top teams have all these issues plugged and a stacked bench on top of that.

In addition to this, the only excuse for last night was that Leicester had more rest, but this is Man United, we should be in all the competitions so it means more games. The attitude and mentality just wasn't there.

 

[FrankDrebin]

According to some of you lot it’s not possible to both lose a one-off knockout game and have a good mentality. Every loss = collapsing/bottling/fragile mentality.

Liverpool in the FA Cup was a high stakes game. We won. Same with City at the Etihad. Same with plenty of other games this season. We’ve also lost a few games of equal importance. Sometimes other teams just beat us. You don’t have to pinpoint the exact cause like some professor of football. Nobody thinks you’re clever.

Exhausting reading some of these reactions. You make me cringe

Exactly.

 

[Bilbo]

This month

Wins at City and vs a decent West Ham to all but secure CL football next season. Getting through against a tough Milan side to advance in the EL. Lose away to 3rd place Leicester after a gruelling month, our 6th game in the last 18 days

Redcafe logic = bump the 'our collapses' and 'bottlers' threads, and any others we can think of.

 

[bsCallout]

For me it's a reflection of the whole squad including the coaches and manager. We're not quite there, but heading in a positive direction. This year I wanted to see us win a cup so if we don't win the EL you have to say the progress has slowed quite a bit.

Everyone knows the team isn't complete yet, we still have big issues with the starting 11 and then there's the question of the bench. Other top teams have all these issues plugged and a stacked bench on top of that.

In addition to this, the only excuse for last night was that Leicester had more rest, but this is Man United, we should be in all the competitions so it means more games. The attitude and mentality just wasn't there.

You can't say we should be in all competitions after saying how we are so far from complete. Just because we are Manchester United.

A team as good as Liverpool's was doesn't compete in all 4.

Why is there this belief that we should be able to? We are so far from that.

Our first 11 perhaps isn't good enough to win a cup, let alone if you're having to rotate to challenge in each and if you're not rotating then they will be fatigued.

 

[SuperiorXI]

You can't say we should be in all competitions after saying how we are so far from complete. Just because we are Manchester United.

A team as good as Liverpool's was doesn't compete in all 4.

Why is there this belief that we should be able to? We are so far from that.

Our first 11 perhaps isn't good enough to win a cup, let alone if you're having to rotate to challenge in each and if you're not rotating then they will be fatigued.

I'm referring to the standards of the club, not the abilities of the squad. Of course no one thinks this squad is capable of challenging for all 4 cups.

 

[Theo Cherry]

This is a disturbing trend that now needs examination. It’s clearly not a one off.

Last season

Semi Final vs Sevilla - went out with a whimper, never looked like scoring after going behind.

vs City- ripped apart at Old Trafford, killing the tie before second leg

vs Chelsea- a nothing performance, brushed aside by chelsea who stayed in second gear.

This Season

Cl group - needed one draw from final two games to make the knockout. Lost both, conceding 6

Premier League- went top and fell off a cliff

Semi Final- destroyed by city without laying a glove

Get the dream semi final draw to break the run of 4 losses, and turn in an embarrassing second half performance, battered around the pitch by Leicester.

This is now a clear pattern of truly collapsing when it comes to the crunch. While being pro Solskjaer, is a new manager the only way to change this?

If this was a better run club, this man would be out the door and would be making preparation to get Nagelsmann!

 

[Forevergiggs1]

No I think that's a bizarre way to look at it how far behind they were in Ole first season. Look how far ahead we'll be of Liverpool this season.

We are in agreement about prioritising which falls on Ole, the problem is had we gone out of Europa and the Carling cup like Leicester, our fans would be even more furious with Ole.

Then comes the question of what to prioritise next season. You always want to prioritise CL and Prem but is there any point in missing out on the chance of the FA Cup to face our inevitable failure in the CL anyway?

Why is it bizarre? I think we all agree league position doesn't lie. If we finish 14 points ahead of a team and spend twice as much in the transfer market shouldn't we be pushing further ahead of them instead of them catching up? As much as I love seeing Liverpools demise I don't think it can be used as an example because it's a complete anomaly. Imagine if we lost Maquire and Lindelof, then Bailly and Tuanzebe and ended up playing McT and Fred/Matic as CBs. No team, not even City as proved last year with all the riches they have could cope with these amounts of injuries. If people are saying we have a thread bare squad now what would we be like coping with so many injuries. Liverpool isn't a fair playing ground.

Leicester and us are. Ole and Rodgers basically joined their respective teams at the same time (Ole a few months earlier) but it's Rodgers who has pushed on more with half the transfer budget. The 18/19 season we finished with 66, Leicester with 52. The 19/20 season we finished with 66 and Leicester with 62 and so far this season they're 1 point behind us. Of course it can all change one way or the other in the remaining games but for me the trend is slightly worrying.

I do kinda feel sorry for Ole in the sense that being the manager at United is expected to bring trophies and he knows that and I can sort of understand his reasoning on running players into the ground because he's desperate to succeed but not at the detriment of the club. Even with his winning mentality the great SAF learned at an early age when to play the A team or the B team even if the B team wasn't very good but I suppose having titles under his belt gave him that luxury.

 

[bsCallout]

Why is it bizarre? I think we all agree league position doesn't lie. If we finish 14 points ahead of a team and spend twice as much in the transfer market shouldn't we be pushing further ahead of them instead of them catching up? As much as I love seeing Liverpools demise I don't think it can be used as an example because it's a complete anomaly. Imagine if we lost Maquire and Lindelof, then Bailly and Tuanzebe and ended up playing McT and Fred/Matic as CBs. No team, not even City as proved last year with all the riches they have could cope with these amounts of injuries. If people are saying we have a thread bare squad now what would we be like coping with so many injuries. Liverpool isn't a fair playing ground.

Leicester and us are. Ole and Rodgers basically joined their respective teams at the same time (Ole a few months earlier) but it's Rodgers who has pushed on more with half the transfer budget. The 18/19 season we finished with 66, Leicester with 52. The 19/20 season we finished with 66 and Leicester with 62 and so far this season they're 1 point behind us. Of course it can all change one way or the other in the remaining games but for me the trend is slightly worrying.

I do kinda feel sorry for Ole in the sense that being the manager at United is expected to bring trophies and he knows that and I can sort of understand his reasoning on running players into the ground because he's desperate to succeed but not at the detriment of the club. Even with his winning mentality the great SAF learned at an early age when to play the A team or the B team even if the B team wasn't very good but I suppose having titles under his belt gave him that luxury.

You're using the seasons when both managers took over from failing managers as the starting point and yard stick? Thats ridiculous.

They've both had full seasons and both pretty much done the same in each, we've gone further in most comps and we got top 4 last season.

Why does spend always come into it too? That is so far beyond the manager. Leicester have done better in the transfer market than we have, that has very little to do with the managers.

 

[simonhch]

That's not the question, though. The question is, we clearly got better the moment Fernandes joined last season, and it reflected on our point tally this season because a full season with him is better than half a season with him. But compared with our performances after his early impact, has our football improved? Are we better now than how we were last season after his signing?

No, we got better after we signed our vest player. Like we got better after we signed Cantona.

 

[Amir]

No, we got better after we signed our vest player. Like we got better after we signed Cantona.

So signing players is our only way to improve?

 

[MUFC OK]

We definitely look like we are burning out. If you offered me EL v FA cup I’d take EL any day. I fully expect us to go out of that with a whimper in the semi finals again, we don’t have the depth to avoid playing the likes of Fred/mctom/matic.

Maguire has had a stinker in each of the OP games too.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

You're using the seasons when both managers took over from failing managers as the starting point and yard stick? Thats ridiculous.

They've both had full seasons and both pretty much done the same in each, we've gone further in most comps and we got top 4 last season.

Why does spend always come into it too? That is so far beyond the manager. Leicester have done better in the transfer market than we have, that has very little to do with the managers.

Once again why is it ridiculous? The season before both Ole and Rodgers took over their respective clubs we finished with 81 points and Leicester with 47. That's an absolutely massive gap irrespective of failing managers. They both had a bedding in season then the following one it went down to the last game of the season for us to finish above them. Making up a 34 point gap in 2 seasons while spending half the money shows that either Leicester have found a generational manager or that we haven't pushed on anywhere near what we should have done.

Spend comes into it for obvious reasons. How can you say Ole has very little to do with transfers? While Ole (yes Ole) was looking at paying a world record fee for a CB and almost a world record fee for a RB Leicester have been signing players like Fofana for 30m or Tielmans for about 40m. Oles strategy seems to be look at the most obvious expensive signings, Maquire, AWB, Grealish, Haaland, Sancho and see if he can put it all together whereas Rodgers/Leicester actually look beyond the obvious which seems to be working better than our system.

Ole himself has said no player will come into the club without his say so. To say Ole has very little to do with transfers couldn't be further than the truth.

 

[NicolaSacco]

The problem with terming the losing of knockout games as ‘collapses’ is that surely every season every team except one ‘collapses’. You could have beaten Leicester and Liverpool and then lost to Chelsea in the semis and the final, and the losing game would be termed a collapse despite the fact that your overall record has been good. The only way for Utd not to have 3 collapses this season would have been by winning a treble of cups. Anything else is a collapse, right?
If Man City go on to win the domestic treble is it legitimate or fair to then accuse every single other team in the league of falling apart? Seems ridiculous to me. It’s the nature of cup competitions that one loss and you’re out. Given that that will apply to 19 out of 20 Prem teams for each domestic cup, or 63 out of 64 for the Europa, is there a way to NOT a win a cup without the accusation of collapsing?

 

[bsCallout]

Once again why is it ridiculous? The season before both Ole and Rodgers took over their respective clubs we finished with 81 points and Leicester with 47. That's an absolutely massive gap irrespective of failing managers. They both had a bedding in season then the following one it went down to the last game of the season for us to finish above them. Making up a 34 point gap in 2 seasons while spending half the money shows that either Leicester have found a generational manager or that we haven't pushed on anywhere near what we should have done.

Spend comes into it for obvious reasons. How can you say Ole has very little to do with transfers? While Ole (yes Ole) was looking at paying a world record fee for a CB and almost a world record fee for a RB Leicester have been signing players like Fofana for 30m or Tielmans for about 40m. Oles strategy seems to be look at the most obvious expensive signings, Maquire, AWB, Grealish, Haaland, Sancho and see if he can put it all together whereas Rodgers/Leicester actually look beyond the obvious which seems to be working better than our system.

Ole himself has said no player will come into the club without his say so. To say Ole has very little to do with transfers couldn't be further than the truth.

Let's start with the fact that when Ole took over Leicester were only four points behind United.

 

[Amadaeus]

As posted in another thread too.

No team has a squad that can compete in all competitions except City.

This Leicester team went out early in the EL. We are still in it. We've now had to play 3 days later, when they've had a week's rest.

I hate to say it but I think we have to prioritise what cups we want to really play for, like Liverpool did to win the CL then the Prem.

That Chelsea team we lost to last year were much more rested than us also.

We have the second or third most expensive squad in football. Stop spouting bs.

 

[bsCallout]

We have the second or third most expensive squad in football. Stop spouting bs.

Again, price/value. What does price have to do with it? We've overpaid massively on all our players and we have a squad that doesn't reflect the price we've paid.

No team other than City can compete in all competitions. You did nothing to challenge that.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

If this was a better run club, this man would be out the door and would be making preparation to get Nagelsmann!

If this was a better run club, all the charlatans from top to bottom would be turfed out on their ar$es!

 

[cyberman]

We have the second or third most expensive squad in football. Stop spouting bs.

What has he said that this applies to? Its literally City and Bayern this year that have coped in all competitions. Theres no BS about it.

 

[groovyalbert]

According to some of you lot it’s not possible to both lose a one-off knockout game and have a good mentality. Every loss = collapsing/bottling/fragile mentality.

Liverpool in the FA Cup was a high stakes game. We won. Same with City at the Etihad. Same with plenty of other games this season. We’ve also lost a few games of equal importance. Sometimes other teams just beat us. You don’t have to pinpoint the exact cause like some professor of football. Nobody thinks you’re clever.

Exhausting reading some of these reactions. You make me cringe

You can, but yesterday was not an example of that. We had a good mentality in the Sevilla semi-final last year, as well as the second leg v City last League Cup. All our other cup exits over the last 2 seasons have been really weak from a mental stand-point, and a reoccurring theme under Ole.

Also, hate to say it, but neither the Liverpool or City games were "high stake" in anything other than being matches against our biggest rivals. Liverpool was a 4th round cup tie which, after yesterday, is now pretty much irrelevant, and the City's game lost the meaning it could have had after our throwing away points in easy games. I reckon, had that City game been a title-decider/toss-up for top spot, we would have lost. We've never beaten them when they've absolutely had to win under Ole, although that's not something against our manager - more an expectation of mine that Pep would have them raise their game when it truly mattered.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Let's start with the fact that when Ole took over Leicester were only four points behind United.

Yeah, Mourinhos self sabotaging and throwing games had nothing to do with that? The only sensible way to debate it would be taking it season by season and not fragments of it or else we would of been PL champions just a few short months ago.

2017/18
United 81 Leicester 47

2018/19 Ole joins December 2018, Rodgers February 2019
United 66 Leicester 52

2019/20
United 66 Leicester 62

The most obvious trend to take would be Leicester are improving season by season whereas we're not. I don't know how that can be disputed. In 2 seasons they've went from 34 point gap to a 4 point gap. I've not included this season so far because it's far from over. Maybe things will change but how it stands at the minute that gap has been brought down to 1 point so they're getting even closer.

 

[bsCallout]

Yeah, Mourinhos self sabotaging and throwing games had nothing to do with that? The only sensible way to debate it would be taking it season by season and not fragments of it or else we would of been PL champions just a few short months ago.

2017/18
United 81 Leicester 47

2018/19 Ole joins December 2018, Rodgers February 2019
United 66 Leicester 52

2019/20
United 66 Leicester 62

The most obvious trend to take would be Leicester are improving season by season whereas we're not. I don't know how that can be disputed. In 2 seasons they've went from 34 point gap to a 4 point gap. I've not included this season so far because it's far from over. Maybe things will change but how it stands at the minute that gap has been brought down to 1 point so they're getting even closer.

I can't believe you're using the seasons under other managers to measure Oles progress.

When Ole took over we were 4 points ahead of Leicester. You can say it was because of Mourinho throwing games, if it suits your agenda, but then I'd say the Leicester manager was doing the same thing and that is why he got sacked.

Ole then managed to get something ridiculous out of the season that did not reflect our quality. And youretrying to use those season totals as a guage is ridiculous.

How about we go back a bit further and we see Leicester won the title and therefore Rodgers is rubbish because we'll look where they are now.

The first season both managers had, they performed equally, with us performing when it mattered to get over the line in fourth.

Then this season, Leicester go out of the League cup and Europa League early whereas we stay until the later rounds. We are also above them in the league.

I don't even know what the original point is anymore, this is daft.

 

[simonhch]

So signing players is our only way to improve?

I didn’t say that.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

I can't believe you're using the seasons under other managers to measure Oles progress.

When Ole took over we were 4 points ahead of Leicester. You can say it was because of Mourinho throwing games, if it suits your agenda, but then I'd say the Leicester manager was doing the same thing and that is why he got sacked.

Ole then managed to get something ridiculous out of the season that did not reflect our quality. And youretrying to use those season totals as a guage is ridiculous.

How about we go back a bit further and we see Leicester won the title and therefore Rodgers is rubbish because we'll look where they are now.

The first season both managers had, they performed equally, with us performing when it mattered to get over the line in fourth.

Then this season, Leicester go out of the League cup and Europa League early whereas we stay until the later rounds. We are also above them in the league.

I don't even know what the original point is anymore, this is daft.

I'm not using seasons before I'm using the season before which is a good gauge to see where both teams where immediately before Ole and Rodgers took over.

You don't think Mourinho was throwing games? You really think the numerous managers that came in after Ranieri where doing the same? Or was it that they just weren't good enough?

The original point was you saying that Leicester have a better team than us and my point was why if Leicester started further away than us with half the money so I don't know how you can think Ole is doing a better job than Rodgers. Or do you?

 

[Ledom]

Why is it bizarre? I think we all agree league position doesn't lie. If we finish 14 points ahead of a team and spend twice as much in the transfer market shouldn't we be pushing further ahead of them instead of them catching up? As much as I love seeing Liverpools demise I don't think it can be used as an example because it's a complete anomaly. Imagine if we lost Maquire and Lindelof, then Bailly and Tuanzebe and ended up playing McT and Fred/Matic as CBs. No team, not even City as proved last year with all the riches they have could cope with these amounts of injuries. If people are saying we have a thread bare squad now what would we be like coping with so many injuries. Liverpool isn't a fair playing ground.

Leicester and us are. Ole and Rodgers basically joined their respective teams at the same time (Ole a few months earlier) but it's Rodgers who has pushed on more with half the transfer budget. The 18/19 season we finished with 66, Leicester with 52. The 19/20 season we finished with 66 and Leicester with 62 and so far this season they're 1 point behind us. Of course it can all change one way or the other in the remaining games but for me the trend is slightly worrying.

I do kinda feel sorry for Ole in the sense that being the manager at United is expected to bring trophies and he knows that and I can sort of understand his reasoning on running players into the ground because he's desperate to succeed but not at the detriment of the club. Even with his winning mentality the great SAF learned at an early age when to play the A team or the B team even if the B team wasn't very good but I suppose having titles under his belt gave him that luxury.

It's easier to gain a lot of points from 15th in the table than from 6th. Leicester have done great things recently but let's be fair here, Ole has a different set of tasks when considering available point gains. Leicester could improve in countless ways from where they were.

 

[Amadaeus]

Again, price/value. What does price have to do with it? We've overpaid massively on all our players and we have a squad that doesn't reflect the price we've paid.

No team other than City can compete in all competitions. You did nothing to challenge that.

overpaid is just an excuse. We have the second most expensive squad in football because we have bought players to give us a quality squad to compete on all front. Good managers make average players decent and good players play towards their level. Yet, I have not seen that at United despite having the depth to do that.

You don’t end up having the second most expensive squad in football and say we can only compete in a few competition because we need to be the first most expensive squad in football. That does make any sense. Even if we are the first you would probably come up with the same excuse. The problem is that our managers are not good enough to utilize the resource they have at their disposal and need world class players at every position. Even city doesn’t have that. What they have is a good manager that meets the requirements aforementioned. Zinchenko, Gundogan, Jesus, Bernard, Ruben, ferran, stones, rodri and a few of city players has evolved under great management which makes them have a squad that is capable is filling in gaps when rotation occurs. They are no different to telles, VDB, cavani, Matic, Fred, James, lingard, Baily, Tuanzebe, Williams, and diallo who gives us similar depth in rotation. The only difference is with regards to the quality of managers.

 

[Amir]

I didn’t say that.

It's what I understood. Yes, we improved after signing Fernandes like we improved after signing Cantona. But especially since this is a young, developing team, you'd expect it to have 'organic' improvement in it as well. Have we seen that since the tail end of last year, or have we in fact stagnated since then?

 

[bsCallout]

I'm not using seasons before I'm using the season before which is a good gauge to see where both teams where immediately before Ole and Rodgers took over.

You don't think Mourinho was throwing games? You really think the numerous managers that came in after Ranieri where doing the same? Or was it that they just weren't good enough?

The original point was you saying that Leicester have a better team than us and my point was why if Leicester started further away than us with half the money so I don't know how you can think Ole is doing a better job than Rodgers. Or do you?

Oh Ok. So we are off course anyway. My point is Leicester have a team at our quality NOW. I don't care how far each team has come to get to that point. Leicester seem to have done much better in the market than us.

Using the season they both took over is still mad though.

 

[bsCallout]

overpaid is just an excuse. We have the second most expensive squad in football because we have bought players to give us a quality squad to compete on all front. Good managers make average players decent and good players play towards their level. Yet, I have not seen that at United despite having the depth to do that.

You don’t end up having the second most expensive squad in football and say we can only compete in a few competition because we need to be the first most expensive squad in football. That does make any sense. Even if we are the first you would probably come up with the same excuse. The problem is that our managers are not good enough to utilize the resource they have at their disposal and need world class players at every position. Even city doesn’t have that. What they have is a good manager that meets the requirements aforementioned. Zinchenko, Gundogan, Jesus, Bernard, Ruben, ferran, stones, rodri and a few of city players has evolved under great management which makes them have a squad that is capable is filling in gaps when rotation occurs. They are no different to telles, VDB, cavani, Matic, Fred, James, lingard, Baily, Tuanzebe, Williams, and diallo who gives us similar depth in rotation. The only difference is with regards to the quality of managers.

Wow, you really just pitted those two sets of players against eachother and claimed they offer similar.

 

[Amadaeus]

Wow, you really just pitted those two sets of players against eachother and claimed they offer similar.

You would be surprised how a good manager can turn average players to decent one. We have seen it with most notably klopp, pep, Rodgers and Pochettino in the premier league. If pep wasn’t at city, I could bet a lot of these players that you think are decent will underperform. United have enough resources to do what liverpool, Manchester city, Chelsea, and for sure Leceister has accomplished since sir Alex has retired. The only main problem is that we haven’t picked the right manager and football related structural issue like finding the right dof with a consistent winning philosophy

 

[always_hoping]

Again, price/value. What does price have to do with it? We've overpaid massively on all our players and we have a squad that doesn't reflect the price we've paid.

No team other than City can compete in all competitions. You did nothing to challenge that.

Yes thanks to the incompetence of Woodward and his team.

 

[bsCallout]

Yes thanks to the incompetence of Woodward and his team.

Yes, but that is always levelled at the manager for some reason.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Oh Ok. So we are off course anyway. My point is Leicester have a team at our quality NOW. I don't care how far each team has come to get to that point. Leicester seem to have done much better in the market than us.

Using the season they both took over is still mad though.

I'm not really disagreeing but what worries me is the way it happened and Ole has to take a large part of the responsibility by spending twice as much as Leicester and not really improving the team as much as Rodgers has done who are quietly buying players like Fofana and Tielemans. Even the past summer was no different. We were obviously interested in signing Haaland and/or Sancho and/or Grealish so our philosophy still is signing the most obvious/expensive players to succeed which makes me think Oles not a manager to get more out of the sum of its parts from players like Rodgers has done.

Of course it could all blow up anytime and Ole could leave Rodgers in the dust if we sign the right player but right now all the evidence points to Rodgers/Leicester being a better squad builder than Ole/United which is a big question in itself.

 

[bsCallout]

I'm not really disagreeing but what worries me is the way it happened and Ole has to take a large part of the responsibility by spending twice as much as Leicester and not really improving the team as much as Rodgers has done who are quietly buying players like Fofana and Tielemans. Even the past summer was no different. We were obviously interested in signing Haaland and/or Sancho and/or Grealish so our philosophy still is signing the most obvious/expensive players to succeed which makes me think Oles not a manager to get more out of the sum of its parts from players like Rodgers has done.

Of course it could all blow up anytime and Ole could leave Rodgers in the dust if we sign the right player but right now all the evidence points to Rodgers/Leicester being a better squad builder than Ole/United which is a big question in itself.

Your big point seems to be about transfers which is little to do with each manager. Each club has people responsible for identifying players and agreeing prices, they've done better. That's not really on Ole or Rodgers.

I do agree another manager could get more out of the players we've bought though.

 

[DickDastardly]

It's mostly a mentality matter.

Lack of leaders, on and off the pitch.
Too many players with zero pulling power.

We need more players who could give 7/10 every game + a couple of them who can give 9/10 at least twice a month.

Currently, its 4/10 for most of the team with a couple of 7's which win us some games.

Not even close to being enough.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Your big point seems to be about transfers which is little to do with each manager. Each club has people responsible for identifying players and agreeing prices, they've done better. That's not really on Ole or Rodgers.

I do agree another manager could get more out of the players we've bought though.

Fair enough but Ole going for obvious targets is always going to inflate the price which in its way is on Ole because supposedly it's the easiest route to success. Everyone knew Maquire wasn't going for less than 80m or AWB for almost 50m or Sancho for 100m+ in the summer but thankfully Ed vetoed that one.

Ole and the club have no imagination and are under the impression that we need to sign star players and pay over the odds to be a success and even though the pressure is different at Leicester Rodgers is proving that that isn't the case.