Absolutely this. We have two players who come across as winners, in Bruno and Cavani. I'm all for signing highly promising young players, but when we go outside of that profile, it should only be for winners. I think the next such player should be a GK.
Our current squad vs Fergie's title winning squads
- Thread starter Hellboy
- Start date
Nowhere close. Not just today. But over the season as a whole .
Honestly, we pick up a few wins and everybody loses their minds over the quality in this squad(cue McTominay potential thread after 1 good game), we go on a poor streak and others lose their minds over Ole being shite.
Its exhausting now.
There's also an obsession with comparing to the past sides which needs to end now. It's time to move on.
But just this once, I'll indulge that final season and our arguable first XI, if I can remember it.
Goalkeeper: Still De Gea. I'd say this is about the same then to now. He was really raw that season, but since last season, De Gea has regressed a little and still has some of the same problems he had back then.
Defence. We had 3 of the world's best defenders in our team back then. They were massively on the decline but their ability back then was still far above what exists now. Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra in a much more expansive team were certainly vulnerable but you'd still trust them more than you trust the current lot. We also lost Vidic a lot, so we saw a much greater deal of Jones and Evans in the team.
Rafael was a bit suspect defensively but did a good job going forward. Was meant to improve but never really did. Had a great influence over quite a few of our games, so I'd still keep him over AWB.
Midfield. Laughable comparison. Fred- McTominay or Carrick-Cleverley(Scholes). It'd a strange one cause on one hand you see Cleverley there but his level that season meant we didn't have to rely on Scholes or go with make shifts. He seemed to have done enough.
Rooney- Fernandes is where it's truly contested. I guess a lot of bias will decide here. Rooney had 12 goals and 10 assists(League only) that season, and I'm inclined to keep him as the slightly better player. However, this thread is about how the current side compares, and Bruno is the one that gets up there and matches the very best.
Wingers: Valencia and Young or Greenwood and Rashford. A serious lack of quality back then. Rashford would definitely get in over Young, but Valencia gets in on the other side for actually being a RW.
Upfront: Van Persie. Not even going to assess. Was a massive component in driving us to number 20. What have the current lot done?
An example of the falling standards of this club when we deem Martial to be good enough to succeed when the likes of Van Persie, Cole, Cantona, Van Nistelrooy and so on graced these grounds, and yet a 25 year old who shows no improvement ever is deemed to have the potential to join that lot.
I imagine some might have an issue with the comparison, but in my personal comparison, 3 players get into that XI.
So, well, that's that.
Honestly, we pick up a few wins and everybody loses their minds over the quality in this squad(cue McTominay potential thread after 1 good game), we go on a poor streak and others lose their minds over Ole being shite.
Its exhausting now.
There's also an obsession with comparing to the past sides which needs to end now. It's time to move on.
But just this once, I'll indulge that final season and our arguable first XI, if I can remember it.
Goalkeeper: Still De Gea. I'd say this is about the same then to now. He was really raw that season, but since last season, De Gea has regressed a little and still has some of the same problems he had back then.
Defence. We had 3 of the world's best defenders in our team back then. They were massively on the decline but their ability back then was still far above what exists now. Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra in a much more expansive team were certainly vulnerable but you'd still trust them more than you trust the current lot. We also lost Vidic a lot, so we saw a much greater deal of Jones and Evans in the team.
Rafael was a bit suspect defensively but did a good job going forward. Was meant to improve but never really did. Had a great influence over quite a few of our games, so I'd still keep him over AWB.
Midfield. Laughable comparison. Fred- McTominay or Carrick-Cleverley(Scholes). It'd a strange one cause on one hand you see Cleverley there but his level that season meant we didn't have to rely on Scholes or go with make shifts. He seemed to have done enough.
Rooney- Fernandes is where it's truly contested. I guess a lot of bias will decide here. Rooney had 12 goals and 10 assists(League only) that season, and I'm inclined to keep him as the slightly better player. However, this thread is about how the current side compares, and Bruno is the one that gets up there and matches the very best.
Wingers: Valencia and Young or Greenwood and Rashford. A serious lack of quality back then. Rashford would definitely get in over Young, but Valencia gets in on the other side for actually being a RW.
Upfront: Van Persie. Not even going to assess. Was a massive component in driving us to number 20. What have the current lot done?
An example of the falling standards of this club when we deem Martial to be good enough to succeed when the likes of Van Persie, Cole, Cantona, Van Nistelrooy and so on graced these grounds, and yet a 25 year old who shows no improvement ever is deemed to have the potential to join that lot.
I imagine some might have an issue with the comparison, but in my personal comparison, 3 players get into that XI.
So, well, that's that.
De Gea (2013)
Rafael Vidic Ferdinand Shaw
Carrick Fred
Rashford Fernandes Rooney
Van Persie
Rafael Vidic Ferdinand Shaw
Carrick Fred
Rashford Fernandes Rooney
Van Persie
Where does he play? Not ahead of Bruno surly
Combined XI
DDG
AWB Rio Vidic Evra
Pogba Carrick
Nani Bruno Martial/ Rashford
RVP
Mentality is everything. And not just ours, opponents really struggled with the aura around the club and SAF. It takes a long time to get that back unfortunately.
We're talking about a manager who adapted for over two decades in the PL. Of course he would.
Rooney would be a wide forward(like Kagawa was, but more clinical obviously).
My team:
-------------- DDG(2013) -------------
Rafael - Vidic - Maguire - Evra
------------- Carrick - Fred------------
-- Rooney - Bruno - Rashford --
-------------------- RVP -------------------
There’s no point arguing with people about the 2013 squad because its supposed shitness is practically considered canon law, but on a par with the 2011 side, really?
Van Der Sar
O’Shea Ferdinand Vidic Evra
Carrick Fletcher
Nani Rooney Giggs
Berbatov
PIG, Smalling, Evans, Fabio, Rafael, Scholes, Anderson, Valencia, Park, Chicharito
Honestly, we suddenly have a half-decent attack again and we’re ‘on a par’ with a side that was three games away from a treble?
Van Der Sar
O’Shea Ferdinand Vidic Evra
Carrick Fletcher
Nani Rooney Giggs
Berbatov
PIG, Smalling, Evans, Fabio, Rafael, Scholes, Anderson, Valencia, Park, Chicharito
Honestly, we suddenly have a half-decent attack again and we’re ‘on a par’ with a side that was three games away from a treble?
We were runaway winners in Fergie's final season with a pretty average squad finishing with 89 points. With the money we spent in the years since I think Fergie would have built another treble winning side. Guardiola and Klopp wouldn't even have come to the League for fear of the great man. He'd have smashed 100 points in this modern game were attackers get so much protection.
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Are you putting Maguire in before Rio, brave choice
A lot of the fodder in the league is worse now than it was 10-15 years ago; Ferguson would thrive with the likes of Bruno, Rashford and McTominay
Rio was quite poor/mediocre that year if I'm not mistaken? I tried to base my team on performance rather than reputation.
I’ve said it before but the first thing Ferguson would do it break the bank for a world class centre forward. Give us Rio, Carrick and Rooney/RVP and this side probably would be very close on all fronts. All that shows though is that we aren’t far way at all. I keep saying it but we’re 4 players away from having the most exciting squad in Europe.
I think midfield is the area where current Manchester United squad does not come close to Sir Alex's title winning team (probable exception is the 2012-13 season team).
I genuinely think that the defense of this united team is not as bad as it is made to look like. Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly are all good to decent defenders. Problem is the midfield is not covering for them. Your only genuine DM is Matic who is quite slow, and that's why Solskjaer had to play two defensive minded CMs who can cover the space.
The forward line as a whole is very good, and I am including Fernandes here, as he is not a midfielder. Cavani is a wily forward even at this age. If Martial and Rashford can convert their chances better, this team can win silverware regularly.
I genuinely think that the defense of this united team is not as bad as it is made to look like. Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly are all good to decent defenders. Problem is the midfield is not covering for them. Your only genuine DM is Matic who is quite slow, and that's why Solskjaer had to play two defensive minded CMs who can cover the space.
The forward line as a whole is very good, and I am including Fernandes here, as he is not a midfielder. Cavani is a wily forward even at this age. If Martial and Rashford can convert their chances better, this team can win silverware regularly.
White text?
Fair, I’d still take a not top form Ferdinand over Maguire though to be honest, just a different level in quality
2010/2011 was far superior, it’s not even debate. Best defense with 3 world class defenders, top wingers and solid midfield with world class Rooney.
in 2012/2013, Defensively we weren’t very good in that season to be fair but we have RVP, world class, clinical, best striker or top 3 striker in the world at that time. In that year, he was probably better than any of current forwards in the PL this season. And Carrick was one of the best deep playmaker in that year.
I think the massive difference is obviously RVP & Carrick, we don’t have those two type & level of players now, if we have, we would have been challenging Liverpool or even winning it. And also bit of Evra to score from set pieces, scoring heading like mad man.
in 2012/2013, Defensively we weren’t very good in that season to be fair but we have RVP, world class, clinical, best striker or top 3 striker in the world at that time. In that year, he was probably better than any of current forwards in the PL this season. And Carrick was one of the best deep playmaker in that year.
I think the massive difference is obviously RVP & Carrick, we don’t have those two type & level of players now, if we have, we would have been challenging Liverpool or even winning it. And also bit of Evra to score from set pieces, scoring heading like mad man.
In terms of winning things, we are light. But the team will hopefully get there together. We are not far off a good mix.
DDG I assume is the only player we have who has one the PL with us. I would have thought Mata and Matic have won the PL with Chelsea, and Cavani has obviously won a lot. We have a couple of World Cup winners as well.
the biggest difference between this team and the United teams mentioned by the OP is the experience of going the distance with United. We haven’t even been in a title race in 7 years - I certainty don’t count when Jose came second.
Fergie would win the CL with this team too.
Many would be wrong to argue that.
Would he? He failed to plenty with better sides
It's not on par with the 2013 team, nowhere close. I would take the entire back 5, Carrick, Rooney and RVP from that team. 8/11 players come from 2013 season.
The 2011 team was also miles better.
The 2011 team was also miles better.
Literally only Bruno gets into that basic Fergie team.
I’m happy with the progress we are making but we’re not a better team than that side. Not a chance.
I’m happy with the progress we are making but we’re not a better team than that side. Not a chance.
He actually made EPL team of the year in 2012-2013, was rock solid. Vidic was also good when fit, but unfortunately missed too many matches (though Evans deputized very well).
Our 2011 and 2013 teams weren’t even close to being as good as some of our other Fergie teams. But still only DDG (who was already there in 2013), Bruno, Rashford and one of Fred / McT would get in those teams.
But the current players will get there. If people want a league title now then we at least need a striker and a DM in their prime now.
But the current players will get there. If people want a league title now then we at least need a striker and a DM in their prime now.
The players are still quite young. Sometimes I feel we are judging the current state of the squad on their potential, rather than their current ability. Like Rashford is potentially a BdO candidate, ditto for Mason, but right now, they won't be a part of top 5 World XIs.
These players will win things, but we're still an year or two away from achieving that level of consistency required to win the league
These players will win things, but we're still an year or two away from achieving that level of consistency required to win the league
Mata never won the Premier League.
Aside from comparing with specific Fergie teams, he always made sure we had a world class striker didn’t he? Always made sure we had extremely reliable centre backs as well. Probably half the team were world class or close to at our best points, with the rest being very good workhorses who knew exactly what he wanted them to do.
I don’t know if he actively made sure we went for players with the right attitude and we took that for granted at the time, or he made them have the right attitude once they arrive, but they always seemed to didn’t they? Probably both.
He instilled such a philosophy (sorry to use that word) throughout the club, not just the team, that it raised the level of everyone. Even the canteen staff talked of it. Just pure winning mentality.
I don’t know if he actively made sure we went for players with the right attitude and we took that for granted at the time, or he made them have the right attitude once they arrive, but they always seemed to didn’t they? Probably both.
He instilled such a philosophy (sorry to use that word) throughout the club, not just the team, that it raised the level of everyone. Even the canteen staff talked of it. Just pure winning mentality.
Damn, so essentially just 3 players(Bruno, a CM and a wide forward) would make the starting XI of Fergie's supposedly worst title team. That's pretty grim.
Fergie would be all over Calvert-Lewin if he was manager. He would develop him into a world class forward too.
One thing Fergie did, was to have a large squad, most of which were average players.
He then changed formation all the time (he was accused of being a tinkerman by some fans), surprising the opposite manager like when he played the Dasilvas brothers in midfield vs Arsenal.
Imo Ole is trying to do the same, that s why he claimed he aims to have two good players in each position. It s still works in progress.
He then changed formation all the time (he was accused of being a tinkerman by some fans), surprising the opposite manager like when he played the Dasilvas brothers in midfield vs Arsenal.
Imo Ole is trying to do the same, that s why he claimed he aims to have two good players in each position. It s still works in progress.
Our recent good form notwithstanding, this United side would be blown off the park by any of Ferguson’s PL-winning sides and probably any of his PL sides.
fair enough. I thought he would have done, but didn’t look it up.
I don't count when Jose came second either, nor do I count titles won by some players years and years ago, when in the last 5-7 years they've been part of a team that has largely been mediocre and lacked any edge. And Pogba winning a World Cup I think has zero bearing on United. At least I haven't noticed.
I think they're hidden in the white text he obviously forgot to insert.Seriously, point them out, I want to see them
While I 100% agree that the league is miles better than it was in 2013, I don’t think anyone would argue Cavani being on RVP’s level. He was arguable the best striker in the world that year.
Also people are forgetting how much of a difference the influx of cash has done for mid and lower level sides these days. Wolves, Everton, Leicester, Palace, Southampton, etc all have clever managers or players that can pop up and win a match for a side, and the league as a whole has progressed far past where it was in the last decade.
I think not. For a start the 2011, 2013 panels was full of leaders with winning mentalities the opposite of the current panel.
Fergie would win a treble with current squad. This squad is the best on paper in EPL. It just needs self belief, confidence and can do attitude. I hope Ole is able to instill that in them since Pochettino is gone now.
The main difference is that RvP was coming from his best season ever and having played all league games for Arsenal. He continued his incredible form in his first season with us.
Whereas Cavani came from having a season at PSG where he had missed a lot of games and in a lot of other games where he was selected he mostly only played a few minutes. And he also continued this form with us (self isolation, then getting fit, then getting match fit, then playing (well) for us, then getting injured and now he is back again). When fit he has done really well, but surely you can see the difference in (expected) impact RvP had in 2012/13 and Cavani this season.