Our current squad vs Fergie's title winning squads

[Amir]

There's a big different for me between the 2011 and 2013 teams. People mention Vidic and Rio as massive upgrades over what we currently have at the back, for instance, but in Fergie's final season they were on their last legs. Our defence that season wasn't particuarly strong.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I think our squad now is clearly better than the 2013 squad.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Several people. And if Cavani helps lead us to a title then some of them may actually be United supporters as well

No one would argue that.

No one would even argue peak Cavani is better than RVP.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Just to make one thing clear: it's possible for Fergie to be the best manager of all time while still generally having very good players. With that in mind: fecking hell. No, this team is not as good as any of Fergie's title winning teams.

It's hard to compare player for player, but the following players from the 2012-2013 team would walk straight into the starting XI now:

DDG(2013 version, as that was his first top class season)
Vidic
Evra
Rafael(based on performance, rather than status)
Carrick
Rooney
RVP

Maybe I'm being a bit generous with Rafael, but even if you exclude him it's 6-5 in favor of the current team. Keep in mind that I also excluded Valencia and Kagawa, who were good on paper, but performed worse than Rashford and Martial do now.

It's not all about having better players, though. Balance is just as important. When you have a borderline world class DM in Carrick and world class striker in RVP, then much of the job is done. Ironically, those two are exactly the sort of players this team needs. That, and maybe a smarter CB.

I think Shaw is a clearly better player now than Evra was in 2012-2013.

I also think Bruno now is clearly better than Rooney in 2012-2013. Rooney got benched during the biggest game of the season(and it was the right decision). Bruno would never get benched in an important game.

That said, I do agree with your last point.

If you swap out Martial for RVP then, I think we'd win the title.

 

[DickDastardly]

No one would argue that.

No one would even argue peak Cavani is better than RVP.

That's really not fair to Cavani though. You could argue it, it's not like it's out of order.

Although i have no idea when was peak Cavani, so don't look at me, but someone could make the argument. I think. Maybe? I don't know.
Let's win the title with Cavani up top this year and call it a tie.

 

[OleBoiii]

I think Shaw is a clearly better player now than Evra was in 2012-2013.

Defensively it's even, but Evra did much better offensively that year. He got a good amount of goals and assists for a fullback. I like Shaw, but Evra was better that particular year.

I also think Bruno now is clearly better than Rooney in 2012-2013. Rooney got benched during the biggest game of the season(and it was the right decision). Bruno would never get benched in an important game.

I agree that Bruno is better and would take the no.10 position, but Rooney would still get pushed into the front 3 somehow. Probably as a wide forward. He still produced very good numbers and worked very hard.

If you swap out Martial for RVP then, I think we'd win the title.

This season perhaps, but not normally. I still think we need a DM and maybe a CB as well.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Defensively it's even, but Evra did much better offensively that year. He got a good amount of goals and assists for a fullback. I like Shaw, but Evra was better that particular year.



I agree that Bruno is better and would take the no.10 position, but Rooney would still get pushed into the front 3 somehow. Probably as a wide forward. He still produced very good numbers and worked very hard.



This season perhaps, but not normally. I still think we need a DM and maybe a CB as well.

Evra was fairly productive that season, but I think our already leaky defense would look much worse with him instead of Shaw. That said, I am a big Shaw fan. I think he's criminally underrated.

Who would Rooney displace? I think Rashford now is a better player than Rooney 2012/2013 too.

 

[OleBoiii]

Who would Rooney displace? I think Rashford now is a better player than Rooney 2012/2013 too.

I think our front 3 would consist of Rashford, RVP and Rooney. It's not that balanced, but these combined XI's never are.

 

[Plymouth Red]

I think our squad now is clearly better than the 2013 squad.

What does 'better' mean? It's a completely ambiguous word if it's without context.
Technically better? Mentally better? Work rate? Attitude?
I would say that the 2012/13 squad was more focused on winning and had a better collective attitude. There was more desire, determination and aggression across the squad than we have today. And as they say, it's not the dog in the fight, it's the fight in the dog.
The legs in today's squad are younger but the work rate of several of them doesn't reflect this especially in terms of fulfilling the defensive part of their role up front and in the middle of the pitch.
I believe teams reflect their manager's personality to a great extent. 2013 was a SAF team, so there was a harder edge than today, with a more obvious, driven winning mentality. Today, we tolerate players who are clearly disenchanted during the game. SAF wouldn't have stood for some of the drooped shoulders, ambivalence and stroppiness we see all too often now. And as for players moving at walking pace. They would have been out. Pure and simple.
The bottom line is the 2012/13 team won the PL, finishing 11 points ahead of City. I'd love to see us finish similarly this year but realistically, it feels unlikely.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

It wasn't long ago when people said bruno was the only player that might get into city or liverpools team, even spurs. crazy how far the squad has come without a single first team signing in summer

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I would argue it's fairly better than 2013 and on par with 2011

What do you guys think ?

The back four (which is what we usually go for) is shite by comparison - harsh but fair, I think.

The current first choice keeper is worse than his 2011 counterpart - and comparing him to his 2013 counterpart (a younger version of himself) would be an exercise ending in an overall depressing conclusion.

The 2011 version of Paul Scholes would be a default starter in 2020 - and much better individually than any current option.

Ditto Carrick (who was at his peak within the 2011-13 range).

2011 version of Wayne Rooney is obviously better than any attacker on our books today.

2013 version of Van Persie was a world beater - a top, top player who isn't comparable to anyone in our present team.

That's without mentioning Nani, who was better on his day than any of our current wide options.

And even Valencia, who performed to a high standard regularly as a winger in the years mentioned.

So - answer is: nah, not really.

Of course, we could play the hypothetical game and try to imagine what Fergie might have done with the current squad - but that's a different game altogether.

In terms of the actual quality on display - from the individual players in question - the answer is clear.

 

[Lentwood]

The 2013 squad was better than this squad.

Back then we had prime Rooney and prime van Persie for a start.

Plus, the likes of Scholes, Giggs, Carrick, Evra, Vidic and Ferdinand might not have been “peak” but they were still formerly world class players who had plenty of experience and know-how.

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

Let's just make a combined 11 and count the players.

Rashford (2020)-----v.Persie (2013)-------Nani (2011)
--------------------------Bruno(2020)--------------------
------------Carrick (2011)---Scholes (2011)------------
Evra (2011) ---Vidic (2011) - Ferdinand (2011) ---Rafael (2013)
--------------------------VDS (2011)-----------------------------------


2011 - 7 players
2013 - 2 players
2020 - 2 players

P.S. Rooney lost his place to Bruno and v. Persie. Rashford is the best left wide forward in all 3 teams. Nani was at his best in 2010/2011 and (still) have no competition on the right wing.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

In a plausible XI comprised of current players AND players from the 2011/2013 seasons, I'd say you're looking at a single shoe-in from the current team: Bruno.

VDS in goal (obviously - he was better than De Gea is now at the point when he retired, that's just a facht).

Three out of four back there are given: 2011 versions of Rio, Vida and Evra...forget about it. It's a different class to anything we have now. The one question mark is the RB position. Is AWB significantly better than...oh, Rafael* or Valencia (in his RB incarnation)?

Midfield: Central midfield, that is. If you could replace any combination of McTom/Fred/Matic/Pogba with...an over-the-hill (but still pretty sharp) Scholes and a still prime Carrick...what would you do?

Attack: Again, Rooney in 2011 was a player on a different level than anyone we have currently. That really isn't debatable. And ditto for Van Persie in 2013. They were - arguably - precisely what we lack at the moment, i.e. undoubtedly world class attackers in their prime (not in theory, not potentially - they were first rate on the highest level, period).

Wide forwards/wingers: Well, there's a debate to be had there - depending on what formation you go for.

But you could very plausibly field Rooney on the left. A 2011 Rooney on the left in a typical 4-2-3-1 would replace Rashford or Martial easily. A 2011 Nani would do the same - and he could also, plausibly, be a better alternative on the right than anything we can boast presently.

Let's do a Ole style 4-2-3-1 then:

VDS

Rafael-----Rio-----Vidic-----Evra

Carrick-----Scholes

Nani-----Bruno-----Rooney

Van Persie​

Yeah? Question marks over Nani (but we don't have a single player on our books who would undoubtedly do better than Nani on his day on a regular basis) and Rafael (but the obvious alternative here is AWB - who comes with obvious flaws, he is better defensively but has been decidedly mediocre offensively so far).

In my opinion, that's ONE single player who would undoubtedly walk into said set-up (Bruno).

* Fabio (who actually started for us in the 2011 CL final, lest we forget).

 

[jem]

2011 Rooney and 2013 Van Persie would be our best players by a country mile. Bruno is good but hes not a striker and hes not at that level where he can repeatedly win games we shouldn't win all on his own yet. That's the difference.

I'd say he's been doing that as much as Rooney in 2011 (who was supported by Nani at the top of his game, Chicarito, Berbatov, Carrick and a pretty stellar defence.) I don't one player ever does it on his own, but RVP in 2013 is the closest I can remember to that (although Carrick was pretty awesome that season as well.) I feel Bruno is the only player who would be a nailed-on starter in that 2011 squad.

 

[jem]

Let's just make a combined 11 and count the players.

Rashford (2020)-----v.Persie (2013)-------Nani (2011)
--------------------------Bruno(2020)--------------------
------------Carrick (2011)---Scholes (2011)------------
Evra (2011) ---Vidic (2011) - Ferdinand (2011) ---Rafael (2013)
--------------------------VDS (2011)-----------------------------------


2011 - 7 players
2013 - 2 players
2020 - 2 players

P.S. Rooney lost his place to Bruno and v. Persie. Rashford is the best left wide forward in all 3 teams. Nani was at his best in 2010/2011 and (still) have no competition on the right wing.

Valencia was very good in 2011 on the right wing. And Nani was so versatile that he could also do a very good job on the left wing.

 

[Giggsy13]

Stick Bruno, Fred and Rashford into the 2011 team and we may actually beat Barca in the final.

 

[MTF]

In a plausible XI comprised of current players AND players from the 2011/2013 seasons, I'd say you're looking at a single shoe-in from the current team: Bruno.

VDS in goal (obviously - he was better than De Gea is now at the point when he retired, that's just a facht).

Three out of four back there are given: 2011 versions of Rio, Vida and Evra...forget about it. It's a different class to anything we have now. The one question mark is the RB position. Is AWB significantly better than...oh, Rafael* or Valencia (in his RB incarnation)?

Midfield: Central midfield, that is. If you could replace any combination of McTom/Fred/Matic/Pogba with...an over-the-hill (but still pretty sharp) Scholes and a still prime Carrick...what would you do?

Attack: Again, Rooney in 2011 was a player on a different level than anyone we have currently. That really isn't debatable. And ditto for Van Persie in 2013. They were - arguably - precisely what we lack at the moment, i.e. undoubtedly world class attackers in their prime (not in theory, not potentially - they were first rate on the highest level, period).

Wide forwards/wingers: Well, there's a debate to be had there - depending on what formation you go for.

But you could very plausibly field Rooney on the left. A 2011 Rooney on the left in a typical 4-2-3-1 would replace Rashford or Martial easily. A 2011 Nani would do the same - and he could also, plausibly, be a better alternative on the right than anything we can boast presently.

Let's do a Ole style 4-2-3-1 then:

VDS

Rafael-----Rio-----Vidic-----Evra

Carrick-----Scholes

Nani-----Bruno-----Rooney

Van Persie​

Yeah? Question marks over Nani (but we don't have a single player on our books who would undoubtedly do better than Nani on his day on a regular basis) and Rafael (but the obvious alternative here is AWB - who comes with obvious flaws, he is better defensively but has been decidedly mediocre offensively so far).

In my opinion, that's ONE single player who would undoubtedly walk into said set-up (Bruno).

* Fabio (who actually started for us in the 2011 CL final, lest we forget).

I'm with you on this. I'd play Rafael over AWB, and Nani over anyone at RW. Peak Nani was also a better left winger than Rashford currently is, he was just a bit too inconsistent.