Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?

[ravelston]

What’s the general consensus among our fans when it comes to Lindelof?

I honestly do feel he is the weak link at the back. If I recall correctly, the mix up between Maguire and Matić at the start of the Watford game was caused by a bad pass from Lindelof in the first place (although they should have dealt with it better of course) and Deeney’s ‘goal’ was also a result of him once again misjudging a header.

I just do not rate him at all and I think we need an upgrade on him personally.

He's small, slow and a disaster in the air. His passing is not that good, particularly the forward passes, and he's prone to the kind of mind farts that Bailly gets pilloried for. If Smalling's confidence has recovered, I would much prefer him or Bailly to partner Maguire.

 

[cyril C]

I'm not Maguire's biggest fan and think for £80m we should be getting more however, the consistency of having him there every game makes a huge difference, and the same can be said for AWB. A team with a settled back 5 (inc GK) is bound to be betterand this is reflected in the defensive performances.

Smalling/Jones/Rojo/Bailly all have ups and downs with injuries making a settled back-line difficult to achieve.

Smalling up and down, I'll take that, in fact IMO he has more ups than downs apart from injury. Bailly, OK give him the benefit of the doubt. Rojo - his performance has been consistent apart from extended injury, but he is never built for a CB at EPL, not even Bundesliga. He might be OK in Spain or other southern league, just too short and slow. Rojo is in fact a Blind without the brain.

Jones - he might be OK 10 years ago but tell me which 3 games he has perform consistently in a row....

 

[Tarrou]

it's improved, but still room for improvement

one thing that people used to talk about was how bad we were at the back when pressed, even going back to the late Fergie days

you hardly hear about it now so i think that is one thing that has been fixed, or at least least improved a fair bit

we're definitely a bit dodgy from crosses though, still... and that needs to be addressed

 

[cyril C]

it's improved, but still room for improvement

one thing that people used to talk about was how bad we were at the back when pressed, even going back to the late Fergie days

you hardly hear about it now so i think that is one thing that has been fixed, or at least least improved a fair bit

we're definitely a bit dodgy from crosses though, still... and that needs to be addressed

When the team push forward, our back is ALWAYS exposed and someone need to be able to deal with 1-on-1 situation. When we are pressed, individual defender is not expected to dribble (hopefully not) but the rest of the team, particularly MF, are expected to help. Arsenal's last minute disaster was a classic example, someone just made a bureaucratic pass to Leno (now not my problem any more) and forced Leno to make mistake, a corner which never cleared. We have been dealing with problems like these all 3 seasons.

Was it the skills of individual players, I don't think so. It was the mindset, may be there is no instruction from the coach, that we should hold on to the ball even with 2 min to go...

 

[Tarrou]

When the team push forward, our back is ALWAYS exposed and someone need to be able to deal with 1-on-1 situation. When we are pressed, individual defender is not expected to dribble (hopefully not) but the rest of the team, particularly MF, are expected to help. Arsenal's last minute disaster was a classic example, someone just made a bureaucratic pass to Leno (now not my problem any more) and forced Leno to make mistake, a corner which never cleared. We have been dealing with problems like these all 3 seasons.

Was it the skills of individual players, I don't think so. It was the mindset, may be there is no instruction from the coach, that we should hold on to the ball even with 2 min to go...

I'm a bit confused as you used Arsenal as your example

are you saying you don't think we've improved in this regard?

 

[roonster09]

I'm just wondering why a team who loses their best CB for a world record fee and don't replace him are doing better defensibly than we are. In general Leiceister have been doing fine. If you are going by single results, you can handpick a dozen from our season that have been abject failures.

We bought their CB for a world record fee though and they didn't replace him. Yet they are doing fine defensively.

We sold Ronaldo and scored more league goals in 2009-10 than in 2006-09, so was Ronaldo not important for us?

Leicester has done well and defence or attack is more than just 1 player. It's a team game.

 

[SouthPredators4]

I will get rid of Lindelof, Smalling, Jones, Rojo and go for either Upamencano or Kanote. Ole has done an incredibly job clearing the deadwood but surely he can see that the above mentioned have no future in a team trying to compete and progress.

 

[Le Red]

If you compare our defensive record last season to this season, you can see we have in general improved across the baord

2018/19 Premier League - 38 Games​	2019/20 Premier League - 27 Games​
Goals Conceded - 54 (11th). 1.42 GA per game	Goals Conceded - 29 (Joint 4th). 1.07 GA per game	2019/20: 0.35 Better
XGA - 48.3 (9th). 1.27 GA per game	XGA - 26.4 (5th). 0.98 GA per game	2019/20: 0.29 Better
Clean Sheets - 7 (15th) CS%: 18.4	Clean Sheets - 7 (Joint 7th) CS%: 25.9	2019/20: 7.5% Better
Shots Against - 169 (12th) 4.4 SA per game	Shots Against - 92 (4th) 3.4 SA per game	2019/20: 1.0 Better
Saves - 124 (15th Low to High) 0.680 Shots to saves	Saves - 64 (Joint 4th) 0.685 Shots to Saves	2019/20: 0.005 Better
Penalties Conceded - 6 (Joint 4th Highest)	Penalties Conceded - 1 (Joint 14th)
Free Kicks Goals Conceded - 2	Free Kicks Goals Conceded - 1
Corner Kicks Goals Conceded - 7	Corner Kicks Goals Conceded - 7	2019/20: On course for 2/3 worse
Own Goals - 3	Own Goals - 1

So on paper, there's plenty of statistics hat suggest we've improved in almost every aspect, ever the goals from corners isn't too far off what it was last season, which is disappointing given the purchase of Maguire and the more settled nature of our back four selection as opposed to the previous season where we didn't seem to have that to the same extent. We are however conceding fewer shots & have a lower XGA, which I feel can seen seen as potentially more accurate stats than simply goals conceded + Clean Sheets. Watching the games, I am one that is surprised at the improvements across the board generally as we seem to have a spell of a panic and desperate defending each game.

From the stats I'd summaries, we are yet to have a world class, solid defence that we'd consider fixed there have however been a nice improvement compared to last season.
The additions of Maguire, AWB, McTominay establishing himself in front, Willaims/Shaw coming into 1st 11 more as opposed to Young seems to have had a positve effect


A key talking point as to whether the defence has actually improved is to see if we have sacrificed the attacking part of our game. We all know that a team that sits deep and doesn't take risks when attacking are less exposed than expansive sides so we may have just become a team set up to concede less rather than any real defensive improvements. A few of the attacking stat comparisons, last season to this.

2018/19 Premier League - 38 Games	2019/20 Premier League - 27 Games
Goals For - 65 (5th) 1.71 Goals per game	Goals For - 41 (Ranked 6th) 1.52 Goals per game	2019/20: 0.19 Worse
XGF - 59.6 (3rd) 1.56 Goals per game	XGF - 41.7 (Ranked 5rd) 1.54 Goals per game	2019/20: 0.02 Worse
Shots - 518 (5th) OT - 212 (2nd) %OT - 40.9% (1st)	Shots - 391 (4th) OT - 142 (4th) %OT - 36.3% (5th)	2019/20: Shots on Target % - 5.6% Worse
Shots per game 13.63 (5th) 0.11 Goals per shot (Joint 6th)	Shots per game 14.48 (4th) 0.09 Goals per shot (Joint 5th)	2019/20: 0.85 More shots/ 0.02 Lower GPS
Goals per SOT - 0.26 (16th)	Goals per SOT (0.24) (18th)	2019/20: 0.02 Worse (Both Terrible)
Shots From Free Kicks - 28 (2nd) 5.4% Total Shots	Shots From Free Kicks 25 (1st) 6.4% Total Shots	2019/20 1% Higher
Pens - Scored 9 of 12 (75%) 16.7% of Total Goals	Pens - Scored 6 of 10 (60%) 14.6% of Total Goals	2019/20: Worse Conversion, Lower TG %
Expected Goals Non-Pens - 50.4 (6th ranked) 1.33 per game	Expected Goals Non-Pens - 34.1 (7th ranked) 1.26 per game	2019/20: 0.07 Worse

The key Interesting thing here to me is that a lot of the stats are similar, with a consistent small drop across the board. Our Total Shots and Expected Goals are all very similar to last season however we seemed to perform well above our expected goals and had a significantly higher shots on target %, suggesting that it isn't a change to a more defensive style that has caused fewer goals scored and a better defensive record but rather a defence which has genuinely improved with an attack which is now performing more to par rather than an over performance we saw last season

In my personal opinion, and all season like a lot of fellow United supporters, I've watched as we seem panicky in defence as well as unable to create chances so to suggest that defence is better, attack is actually the same in reality seems odd, especially given our far worse points total as opposed to last season but with Bruno arriving, Pogba hopefully fit soon for the remainder of the season. We may Finish this Premier League season saying Yes our defence has clearly improved and Yes our Attack has improved too.

I'm very interested to know how good our defensive stats would be if our goals conceded from corners were, say, top 6, as opposed to the worst in the league.

 

[Tarrou]

can't we hire Fat Sam to train us on set pieces?

 

[Le Red]

Like pointed by others, set piece (specially corners) has been a nightmare for us.
Personally I believe a towering defender would be nice to have. Is our interest in Milenkovic still alive?

 

[M Bison]

Smalling up and down, I'll take that, in fact IMO he has more ups than downs apart from injury. Bailly, OK give him the benefit of the doubt. Rojo - his performance has been consistent apart from extended injury, but he is never built for a CB at EPL, not even Bundesliga. He might be OK in Spain or other southern league, just too short and slow. Rojo is in fact a Blind without the brain.

Jones - he might be OK 10 years ago but tell me which 3 games he has perform consistently in a row....

Not sure what you’re asking?

 

[ZupZup]

I think we defend a lot better as a team than before. We don’t let teams really get at our back four too often and I’ve seen good stats on how few chances we concede now... I just think we provide a much better shield to our defence through hard work and very good organisation.

I still think when teams do get in and around our box, we look like conceding and it certainly shows when it comes to defending set pieces.

 

[Eric's Seagull]

We bought their CB for a world record fee though and they didn't replace him. Yet they are doing fine defensively.

They did replace him though they had already bought Soyoncu in 18/19 and deemed him ready enough to play regularly. They made a good piece of business there.

 

[cyril C]

I'm a bit confused as you used Arsenal as your example

are you saying you don't think we've improved in this regard?

I am saying we haven't improved much. Just wait until the next set piece... In fact, people have forgotten what happened during the 1st 10min, we could have been 1-0 down with Maguire red card....

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'm very interested to know how good our defensive stats would be if our goals conceded from corners were, say, top 6, as opposed to the worst in the league.

Our current percentage (goals conceded from set pieces - which would be mainly corners - compared to total goals conceded) is 34, which is significantly worse than the best of the current top four, Leicester, at just 18%.

City 21%
Chelsea 22%
Liverpool 24%

Now, if you simply presuppose that a more normal (compared to the teams above us) percentage would translate to less goals conceded (total) - which isn't 100% sound, but there you go - you could probably shave something like three goals off said total. Which is - again - significant, even if it ain't exactly dramatic *.

Another way to illustrate this would be to compare the nature of goals conceded between ourselves and - to make the most obvious example - Liverpool:

United-Liverpool (goals conceded from open play): 14-11
United-Liverpool (goals conceded from set pieces): 10-4 **

Note that "set pieces" do not include penalties.

League only, by the way.

* It would be much more dramatic if it weren't for the fact (which is the good news here, of course) that we haven't conceded all that many goals in total: only Liverpool stand out in that regard, really, whereas we compare rather well with the others.

** These numbers are - obviously - pointless without taking into consideration how many set pieces (corners) the team have to deal with to begin with. A generally "dominant" team won't be pinned down as much, and won't have as many corners against them, as a team that struggle more and are more prone to being attacked consistently.

 

[Gehrman]

They did replace him though they had already bought Soyoncu in 18/19 and deemed him ready enough to play regularly. They made a good piece of business there.

Ok seems so.

 

[Eric's Seagull]

I will get rid of Lindelof, Smalling, Jones, Rojo and go for either Upamencano or Kanote. Ole has done an incredibly job clearing the deadwood but surely he can see that the above mentioned have no future in a team trying to compete and progress.

Would be nice to see this but I don't have convidence in us doing this especially with the Euros on. One thing with this though would leave us with Bailly who is good on his day but has missed a lot of days through injury as https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/eric-bailly/verletzungen/spieler/286384 and Axel who is inexperienced.

 

[Aarron Swift]

I'm very interested to know how good our defensive stats would be if our goals conceded from corners were, say, top 6, as opposed to the worst in the league.

I haven’t worked out the what the % of total goals conceded from corners are for every one but United look like they potentially have the highest in the league.

Man Utd 7 of 29 = 24.14% of total goals.

(Even Norwich who have conceded a League high of 10 corners, that’s represents 19.6% of Total goals.)
Chelsea have a 21.6% & have in fact conceded 1 corner more than us, so have a similar issue to us in that respect.

Looking at the 5 sides that have conceded the fewest corners, you can see a huge gap between us and them.

1. Sheffield Utd 2 of 25 = 8%
2. Liverpool 2 of 17 = 11.76%
3. Tottenham 3 of 36 = 8.33%
4. Burnley 3 of 39 = 7.69%
5. Man City 4 of 29 = 13.79%

I guess the silver lining here is that in goals from Open Play we’ve only conceded 20 (3rd behind Leicester (17) & Liverpool (14). In terms of % goals from Open Play, ours is 68.97%, 2nd behind Leicester with 60.71%. So on the surface, of the defending from corners was addressed it looks as if we have the makings of a very solid side.

Of course stats don’t give a full story, the timing and impact of the goals we’ve conceded from Corners is more important than the amount we concede, had all 7 been consolation goals in 4-1 wins, no one would care. I can’t remember all 7 of the corners we’ve conceded but I’m sure these were goals conceded from corners

- Southampton A 1-1 equaliser
- Brighton H 3-1 W
- Everton H 1-1,to go 1-0 down
- Man City A 2-1 W, late goal to creat nervy finish.
- Arsenal A 2-0 L , 2nd game ending goal
- Liverpool A 2-0 L, to go 1-0 down

Barring the Brighton game, it shows the goals from corners have all come as goals to put us in a losing or drawing positions in games we haven’t recovered, to kill the game in Arsenal defeat & to create a very nervy finish vs Man City.

 

[ReddBalls]

I think Ole have been prioritizing working on what the team does in open play, and now that it seems to be working I expect him to start working on set pieces (where everyone is involved). I think we will see results next season. There is a logic in this, being that Ole has stated that he wants United to play attacking football.

Liverpool was the same at the start of Klopps reign. He prioritized getting open play right first, and they where horrible on set-pieces in his first full season. They let in 12, which was the worst in the league.

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2017/...-management-5-areas-liverpool-improve-201718/

Funnily enough, going by that article, Klopp seemed to struggle with exactly the same problems that Ole do now: Beating smaller teams, breaking low blocks, game management and set pieces.

 

[Ekeke]

Like pointed by others, set piece (specially corners) has been a nightmare for us.
Personally I believe a towering defender would be nice to have. Is our interest in Milenkovic still alive?

The thing is, this isnt new. We had the same issue in seasons prior to this. That was one of the reasons people wanted Maguire. What did that change? Nothing. Was he simply the wrong player? Maybe. Or maybe we just need better organization from the manager on set pieces and it wouldnt matter if we signed another player good in the air.

Milenkovic is still up and down himself, not that surprising for a young player.

 

[roonster09]

looks like it is, we are looking very good now.

 

[Dante]

We've conceded fewer goals than City.

 

[iKnowNothing]

Edit - sorry wrong thread

 

[cyril C]

Our current percentage (goals conceded from set pieces - which would be mainly corners - compared to total goals conceded) is 34, which is significantly worse than the best of the current top four, Leicester, at just 18%.

City 21%
Chelsea 22%
Liverpool 24%

Now, if you simply presuppose that a more normal (compared to the teams above us) percentage would translate to less goals conceded (total) - which isn't 100% sound, but there you go - you could probably shave something like three goals off said total. Which is - again - significant, even if it ain't exactly dramatic *.

Another way to illustrate this would be to compare the nature of goals conceded between ourselves and - to make the most obvious example - Liverpool:

United-Liverpool (goals conceded from open play): 14-11
United-Liverpool (goals conceded from set pieces): 10-4 **

Note that "set pieces" do not include penalties.

League only, by the way.

* It would be much more dramatic if it weren't for the fact (which is the good news here, of course) that we haven't conceded all that many goals in total: only Liverpool stand out in that regard, really, whereas we compare rather well with the others.

** These numbers are - obviously - pointless without taking into consideration how many set pieces (corners) the team have to deal with to begin with. A generally "dominant" team won't be pinned down as much, and won't have as many corners against them, as a team that struggle more and are more prone to being attacked consistently.

One more good news. If you take away the DDG gift, we should be at par with Liverpool.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

Attack v defence for 30 mins and we held it together, good stuff.

 

[baskinginthesun]

We can comfortably sit back now and hold on to a lead. City today created one decent chance in that 2nd half. It's a nice feeling to have that we have a defense we can rely on.

 

[Random Task]

This probably the most solid we have been at the back since Rio and Vida retired.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Huge improvements here. And not fake masking ones where we’re getting lucky. We’re actually stopping teams getting chances and looking quite comfortable doing it. Still the odd brain fart from Shaw and Lindelof occasionally but quite something this improvement.

 

[Isotope]

We put 5 defenders today, and 2 DM protecting, while playing counterattack.

 

[Darkhorsez]

I think we defend a lot better as a team than before. We don’t let teams really get at our back four too often and I’ve seen good stats on how few chances we concede now... I just think we provide a much better shield to our defence through hard work and very good organisation.

I still think when teams do get in and around our box, we look like conceding and it certainly shows when it comes to defending set pieces.

Agree with this. I think Matic and Fred do a lot of work to support the team defence. We are much better as a unit rather than relying on our centre backs. Still think we need reinforcement at centre back especially for set pieces.

 

[RedIan]

We've conceded fewer goals than City.

Didnt realise that. City’s defence is shocking. You can see every time we ran at them today they really struggle to cope.

 

[ash_86]

We've been great at the back this season but still Lindelof could be upgraded. He has too many shaky moments for my liking.

 

[Adamsk7]

We’re one player away from the best back four in the league. As a back five, we’re already the best in the league. I actually quite like Lindelof and Bailly and they don’t NEED upgrading but if there’s one position that is up for grabs, it’s the one next to Maguire.

 

[Cassidy]

We put 5 defenders today, and 2 DM protecting, while playing counterattack.

This. But its still a lot better than when we tried to do this in the past

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

We put 5 defenders today, and 2 DM protecting, while playing counterattack.

So, nothing wrong with a team who can play well in different ways. It’s a positive in my eyes. Don’t get the negativity from some about it. You’d think it’s never been done before.

 

[arthurka]

We've been great at the back this season but still Lindelof could be upgraded. He has too many shaky moments for my liking.

Agree but he helped Maguire out a few times early on. But I agree.

 

[ash_86]

Agree but he helped Maguire out a few times early on. But I agree.

He did help out. But when things are not going great i think he goes into hiding too often. Not the highest priority to get done right away but something to ponder.

 

[arthurka]

He did help out. But when things are not going great i think he goes into hiding too often. Not the highest priority to get done right away but something to ponder.

Fully agree he is always close to his next feck up.

 

[Isotope]

This. But its still a lot better than when we tried to do this in the past

That's true. I was just questioning about being "fixed". Imho, we "fixed" it if we go to every games like under Fergie, with a trusted back 4. Just like every other big teams who have their defence truly "fixed".

 

[bucky]

We put 5 defenders today, and 2 DM protecting, while playing counterattack.

This is still a Guardiola coached side that normally creates lots of chance despite teams sitting back against them. I've looked at their xG in the league and today was the game they've created the lowest figure of their season.