Great Post. 100% agree. Our defence this year has been a massive improvement on last year. I give Maguire a lot of credit for that, he's a natural leader who can carry the ball out comfortably when needed. OK post lockdown he's not been anywhere near his best but overall this season I think he's one of the main reasons we've finished third. I'm just happy were not playing Smalling and Jones. Another central defender will be a target in the window I feel.
Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?
- Thread starter Untd55
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Manutd conceded the least goals and least expected goals from open play this season.
https://www.statsperform.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/8-2019-season-review-3.html
https://www.statsperform.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/8-2019-season-review-3.html
No.
awb was a bad signing, we are basically handicapped down the right wing and it forces the club to having to sign a right winger this season because awb offers so little threat and width in attack, plus he is a big reason why we struggle playing the ball out from the back because he is so poor technically on the ball, then there is his positional sense which is all over the place.
De gea is a spent force and makes our defence nervous.
Maguire would have been good signing (though still overpriced) had he been brought into the team to partner a world class defender with pace but instead his partner is has a lot of the same weaknesses he has with mobility.
Then there is matic who is still a valued team member but teams can bypass him so easily in midfield and we need someone that can cover ground better to make up for Fernandes and pogba being more offense oriented.
awb was a bad signing, we are basically handicapped down the right wing and it forces the club to having to sign a right winger this season because awb offers so little threat and width in attack, plus he is a big reason why we struggle playing the ball out from the back because he is so poor technically on the ball, then there is his positional sense which is all over the place.
De gea is a spent force and makes our defence nervous.
Maguire would have been good signing (though still overpriced) had he been brought into the team to partner a world class defender with pace but instead his partner is has a lot of the same weaknesses he has with mobility.
Then there is matic who is still a valued team member but teams can bypass him so easily in midfield and we need someone that can cover ground better to make up for Fernandes and pogba being more offense oriented.
https://www.statsperform.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/8-2019-season-review-3.html
We conceded the smallest number of goals from open play last season (both actual and expected). The more pressing problem is defending set pieces.
A decent DM with aerial presence would solve a lot of problems. Though Lindelof has been improving on that front, to be fair. I'd expect him (and United as a whole) to be much better next season.
But taking a step back, I think defence is far from our biggest issue. For me, it's the middle of the park needs to be fixed.
Better midfield control will solve a lot of problems both going back and going forward.
| Team | Open play Shots against | xG against | Goals conceded | Set Piece Shots against | Set Piece xG against | Set Piece Goals against | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Liverpool | 264 | 30.5 | 24 | 77 | 6.9 | 7 | |
| Manchester City | 203 | 29.0 | 24 | 74 | 6.2 | 7 | |
| Manchester United | 269 | 26.0 | 21 | 117 | 9.6 | 11 | |
| Chelsea | 202 | 26.1 | 35 | 118 | 11.3 | 14 | |
| Leicester City | 260 | 28.4 | 25 | 108 | 9.8 | 6 | |
| Tottenham Hotspur | 386 | 37.5 | 34 | 146 | 12.5 | 6 | |
| Wolverhampton Wanderers | 284 | 28.1 | 29 | 112 | 7.9 | 9 | |
| Arsenal | 387 | 36.5 | 26 | 158 | 13.4 | 15 | |
| Sheffield United | 298 | 36.5 | 32 | 130 | 12.1 | 6 | |
| Burnley | 389 | 36.2 | 38 | 145 | 10.5 | 7 | |
| Southampton | 324 | 39.8 | 45 | 124 | 10.5 | 11 | |
| Everton | 305 | 34.1 | 35 | 118 | 11.6 | 15 | |
| Newcastle United | 392 | 46.5 | 39 | 172 | 19.0 | 15 | |
| Crystal Palace | 363 | 40.5 | 39 | 148 | 16.7 | 9 | |
| Brighton and Hove Albion | 374 | 41.0 | 40 | 122 | 13.6 | 10 | |
| West Ham United | 368 | 48.7 | 44 | 127 | 11.1 | 10 | |
| Aston Villa | 440 | 49.2 | 46 | 162 | 14.8 | 15 | |
| Bournemouth | 436 | 48.1 | 50 | 117 | 10.5 | 10 | |
| Watford | 358 | 40.2 | 37 | 129 | 12.0 | 16 | |
| Norwich City | 437 | 47.0 | 51 | 163 | 15.3 | 17 |
We conceded the smallest number of goals from open play last season (both actual and expected). The more pressing problem is defending set pieces.
A decent DM with aerial presence would solve a lot of problems. Though Lindelof has been improving on that front, to be fair. I'd expect him (and United as a whole) to be much better next season.
But taking a step back, I think defence is far from our biggest issue. For me, it's the middle of the park needs to be fixed.
Better midfield control will solve a lot of problems both going back and going forward.
Interesting data, supporting what many of us have felt: the defence is solid but we are poor at setpieces (where the whole team defends).
Ok we could improve in the air, but I think it is also largely due to poor organisation. Imo it should be DDG who is in charge of this.
Our defence is definitely not fixed. @GifLord can showcase that just by sharing the goals from tonight.
Twice we were done by simple balls from wide because our defenders lack awareness.
On the first goal Wan Bissaka is done too easily, Lindelof is in no man's land and Maguire and Williams haven't got any idea where Suso is.
On the second roles reversed: Williams beaten easily, Maguire in no man's land and Lindelof and Wan Bissaka have no idea where De Jong is.
Both times the United defence significantly outnumbered the Sevilla forwards. They just switched off. I'd accept the loss if they pulled us to pieces with clever play. But those goals..? Disgusting.
Our defence's is only okay when the game is in front of them. When they can see what's coming. When they need to show awareness, check over their shoulder, anticipate danger.. they're awful.
Twice we were done by simple balls from wide because our defenders lack awareness.
On the first goal Wan Bissaka is done too easily, Lindelof is in no man's land and Maguire and Williams haven't got any idea where Suso is.
On the second roles reversed: Williams beaten easily, Maguire in no man's land and Lindelof and Wan Bissaka have no idea where De Jong is.
Both times the United defence significantly outnumbered the Sevilla forwards. They just switched off. I'd accept the loss if they pulled us to pieces with clever play. But those goals..? Disgusting.
Our defence's is only okay when the game is in front of them. When they can see what's coming. When they need to show awareness, check over their shoulder, anticipate danger.. they're awful.
Quite frankly a lot of the improvement in goals conceded is that we started pressing from the front and teams in general started to sit back more with the pace we had in attack again under Ole.
We have a good record but this defence cannot keep a clean sheet when it matters. How many big games are we conceding so many goals with just school boy mistakes. There is a complete lack of balance and too many physical shortcomings to make a top defence.
We have a good record but this defence cannot keep a clean sheet when it matters. How many big games are we conceding so many goals with just school boy mistakes. There is a complete lack of balance and too many physical shortcomings to make a top defence.
Are we just playing 2 in defense? We are playing 4 in defense so signed 2 out of 4 players won't fix the issue but improve it.
Our defense is very good with their positioning but we need to fix the defensive problem when dealing the crossings. We are sucks in dealing crossings. And also to me apart from Maguire, the others are ball watching. Although, must say that whole defense in our squad often lack of 90 minutes concentration including Maguire.
Our defense is very good with their positioning but we need to fix the defensive problem when dealing the crossings. We are sucks in dealing crossings. And also to me apart from Maguire, the others are ball watching. Although, must say that whole defense in our squad often lack of 90 minutes concentration including Maguire.
Our defense is not good enough. We don't have one absolute quality that we can't improve on it.
When we signed Pogba, Mikitarian, Baily,Zlatan we all thought they were great signings just like Lukaku,Alexis,Matic,Lindelof but after 6 months to 1 year we felt needed better quality
Is this pattern repeating again? We bought Maguire,AWB,James and now people are saying we needed better players than AWB and James....Means 2 out of 3 were not that great even though it improved our situation a bit better for sure but what i feel is, Its a nightmare if we have to improve positions we already bought in for. We are not like city to rinse and repeat like the way they addressing their FB's position in last few years.
Is this pattern repeating again? We bought Maguire,AWB,James and now people are saying we needed better players than AWB and James....Means 2 out of 3 were not that great even though it improved our situation a bit better for sure but what i feel is, Its a nightmare if we have to improve positions we already bought in for. We are not like city to rinse and repeat like the way they addressing their FB's position in last few years.
We have 2 centre backs who are continually out of position and usually nowhere to be seen when we concede .
The amount of times I've watched us concede goals this season and looked at our full backs in the centre of goal trying to track attackers while our centre backs are God knows where is staggering.
I would have thought given both Maguire and Lindelof are not the quickest that they would be somewhere close to the penalty box at these times but nope
The amount of times I've watched us concede goals this season and looked at our full backs in the centre of goal trying to track attackers while our centre backs are God knows where is staggering.
I would have thought given both Maguire and Lindelof are not the quickest that they would be somewhere close to the penalty box at these times but nope
No, it's definitely not fixed. We paid far too much money for subpar players like Lindelöf, Maguire & AWB and it's funny that Luke Shaw is still the most convincing player in that defender group.
The Life of a Defender...
Rashford spent 87mins giving the ball away, falling over the ball, breaking-down attacks and moaning about a throw-in.
Martial was generally decent but missed two one vs one’s and also the chance in the first half which he whipped over the bar (was much easier than he made it look, keeper was rooted to the spot and he had half the goal to guide the ball into)
Greenwood was again generally decent but again missed a one vs one and was pretty wasteful when he got into crossing positions.
In contrast, Williams allowed a couple of crosses into the area and got booked and has been hammered.
Lindelof missed one cross, which AWB should have covered, and gets hammered.
I saw some player ratings yesterday...Maguire given 5...Rashford given 6...if that doesn’t sum up the impossible job defenders have to please people I don’t know what does
Rashford spent 87mins giving the ball away, falling over the ball, breaking-down attacks and moaning about a throw-in.
Martial was generally decent but missed two one vs one’s and also the chance in the first half which he whipped over the bar (was much easier than he made it look, keeper was rooted to the spot and he had half the goal to guide the ball into)
Greenwood was again generally decent but again missed a one vs one and was pretty wasteful when he got into crossing positions.
In contrast, Williams allowed a couple of crosses into the area and got booked and has been hammered.
Lindelof missed one cross, which AWB should have covered, and gets hammered.
I saw some player ratings yesterday...Maguire given 5...Rashford given 6...if that doesn’t sum up the impossible job defenders have to please people I don’t know what does
Indeed but the fact is we conceeded 2 soft goals. It is hard to score in football, especially if the opposition defence is up for it but at the very least, you hope your defence can hold it down, unless confronted by some superb play. Their goals were pretty basic.
Defending isn't just the back 4 but the whole team. The fact that Greenwood and Rashford didnt help the defence whilst having a poor game is not good enough.
If you are going to let your markers go, you better have an impact on the other side.
Both goals came from full backs assists, where was the help for the defence?
They where relatively soft but at the same time, they weren't absolute howlers and yet our forwards missed three/four very simple chances.
I'm just saying the criticism is disproportionate. Also, bear in mind that we're increasingly set up to attack, and that makes life harder for our defenders. For us to have Pogba, Fernandes, Rashford, Greenwood and Martial on the pitch and miss the chances we missed is criminal really
It is about balance as a team isn't it and I do think we have improved how we look defensively, more on the simple fact that we don't do as much defending as before but when we do defend we do so in numbers and with a good structure. Our defence is not set up to defend over 90 minutes a game and we look better for it. Maybe we would have been more solid with Smalling, maybe we wouldn't but Maguire and Lindelof has been just fine. We do need to improve on them as that partnership is dead. This is it with them, this is their level and is not good enough. While we are better now, it's not just about the CB's it's about the whole team. So defence fixed? Both yes and no. It's better but certainly not fixed we need more quality to function even better.
It's funny but we faired better against top sides/high pressing sides when we had a more battling/defensive minded midfield of mctominay with either fred or matic and only one of pogba or Fernandes.
I'm not entirely sold that a midfield 3 involving both pogba and Fernandes works.
The only way I see around it is if we had a diamond midfield so that we could still include 2 out of mctominay, fred or matic in it but we dont have good enough full backs to pull it off.
I'm not entirely sold that a midfield 3 involving both pogba and Fernandes works.
The only way I see around it is if we had a diamond midfield so that we could still include 2 out of mctominay, fred or matic in it but we dont have good enough full backs to pull it off.
I hear what you are saying. but we were 1 nill up and can win a game in those circumstances with a shut out. Clean sheets are crucial especially when your opposition only have 5 shots on goal (3 on target). How they manage to score 2 goals? Not as if we were under the cosh. I am not excusing our attackers as Rashford stank, but again we can win the game from a goal up.
Well the second goal was only an assist becuase our numerous defenders failed to deal with it and allowed the solitary player an easy tap in. The first goal, Wan Bissaka was tracking him as well as Fred. It isn't a law that wingers must always mark FB. that some Jose tactics. You allocate dependent on who is most reasonably going to be able to close the player down.
Rather than saying it is fixed, it's more like it has stabilized.
It's good enough for league competition a season, but lack that extra edge of quality to win trophies.
The only thing left to be "fixed" is to fix the gaping quality hole.
It's good enough for league competition a season, but lack that extra edge of quality to win trophies.
The only thing left to be "fixed" is to fix the gaping quality hole.
De Gea is one of the main reasons we concede goals at set pieces. He doesn’t command his area, preferring to stay on his line hoping outfield players clear it.
Fully agree!
Looking at those stats from goals conceded from set pieces, and makes you remember how often we conceded from corners and free kicks, especially earlier in the season.
What's more, we're also terrible at attacking from set plays too. A hugely underrated weapon in most top teams armoury that we don't utilise whatsoever.
What's more, we're also terrible at attacking from set plays too. A hugely underrated weapon in most top teams armoury that we don't utilise whatsoever.
I don't think we will improve unless we get a keeper who commands his area. Yes DeGea is very good at pulling out saves no one expects him to save but he lets in so many that he is expected to save. He is not a team player like VDS. If he had shouted to Brandon, I don't think they would have scored the first goal. Keeper needs to be shouting instructions even during the game.
The issue with expected goals is it does not show who is actually responsible for it. Is it the midfield or the defence? If the midfield rarely lets a team get past them, the expected goals are going to be reduced just based on the fact that they are getting fewer chances to attack the defence.
You have to remember our defending was not great in the first half of the season. We conceded in every game up to the 28th December 2019 from the Leicester game on the 14th September 2019. We conceded 23 goals in 19 games at the start of the season (only 2 clean sheets) - we were on course, at that time, to concede 46 goals over the season.
Our goals conceded actually only started to reduce when Matic and Fernandes were brought into midfield. I actually think most of the concession reduction has actually been due to the midfield rather than the defence; it is not a coincidence that it aligned so nicely.
I have seen some susceptibilities in our defence when teams get behind our midfield. Maguire and Lindelof do not seem to be great at dealing with players who are running at them and end up making mistakes quite often. I do not actually trust them to be able to deal with attacks without the help of our midfield; I have very little confidence in the central defenders in this regard. I think this will end up holding our midfield back because they cannot be trusted when left alone.
We may be able to get away with this against most teams, but I think it will constantly come back to haunt us when trying to compete for titles.
I also do not think this is sustainable for our midfield to constantly make up for defensive frailties, and I predict we will end up conceding more next season if it doesn't change.
Am I the only one who wants to see AWB moved to CB? With his offensive limitations, I just feel like it would make more sense. Sergio Ramos made the same move from RB to CB. Honestly, I feel like AWB with his speed would complement Maguire better than Lindelof. Sell Smalling, sign Dest from Ajax to go with Sancho, and all of a sudden United have a nice young attacking combo on the right hand side that they haven't had in years.
2 transfers could upgrade 3 spots-- CB, RB and RW. Dest also can play LB, but I'd rather see United sell Dalot and use those funds for a backup LB to challenge Shaw.
2 transfers could upgrade 3 spots-- CB, RB and RW. Dest also can play LB, but I'd rather see United sell Dalot and use those funds for a backup LB to challenge Shaw.
In December 2019, our ''expected goal against'' rating was the 3rd best one in the league. In January 2020, our ''expected goal against'' rating was the 2nd best one in the league. It has been improved before Bruno came.
This is the screen shot that I took in January 2020: xGA (Expected Goal Against)
This will get shot down on here and I dont expect ole to be open minded to it because for some reason when it comes to this club changing a player's position is viewed as mental even though a lot of top sides that are currently miles better than us are regularly doing it now but I think shaw could be turned into a good centre back, I mean if alaba can be turned into centre back then I don't see what's stopping shaw as he is better defensively and when he has played in a back 3 for us he has actually looked the most useful out of the 3 man back line on quite a few occasions.
No is the answer, and my opinions haven't changed...
Our center backs are way too slow. Trying to dominate teams and play a high defensive line leaves us exposed, and we've conceded goals due to that.
Maguire is a good defender, but his lack of pace is his Achilles heel. He needs someone who is quick who can complement him. I think Smalling could have done that, but for some reason Ole doesn't fancy him and he didn't want to stay and fight for his place.
I think Lindelof is very average, and Blind was similar to him, but better (better on the ball and reading the game). Bailly is injury prone and lacks concentration.
I'm probably in the minority, but I think our fullbacks are alright. Not the greatest but doing a job.
So, to sum it all up, we need a strong, physical CB with pace. Or play Bailly in games we play with a high defensive line.
Maguire is a good defender, but his lack of pace is his Achilles heel. He needs someone who is quick who can complement him. I think Smalling could have done that, but for some reason Ole doesn't fancy him and he didn't want to stay and fight for his place.
I think Lindelof is very average, and Blind was similar to him, but better (better on the ball and reading the game). Bailly is injury prone and lacks concentration.
I'm probably in the minority, but I think our fullbacks are alright. Not the greatest but doing a job.
So, to sum it all up, we need a strong, physical CB with pace. Or play Bailly in games we play with a high defensive line.
And we paid about £200m for CBs in the last 5 years
?We have such a toxic fan base, showing every goal conceded and saying stuff like we spent £200m on CB's, yet we had the best defensive record.
Then we go on and praise our attack, we were 5th best attack.
Then we go on and praise our attack, we were 5th best attack.
okay maguire is okay when he has a mobile centre half playing with him. okay so phil jones for the love of baby jesus ship him out, Rojo mad bastard who brings another meaning to consistency, Bailly who brings another meaning to " gaffer im fecked again" and lindelof who really is playing with the fecking fairies, smalling " how can i order a ice cream in italian.
you want a player bust the bank and sign Varane job done make a statement.
you want a player bust the bank and sign Varane job done make a statement.
Bailly will fix it.
until inevitable injury
until inevitable injury
In general I think our fullbacks are very, very good defensively but Maguire is a #2 CB and Lindelof probably a #3. De Gea had some bad errors but is so good we're still talking about a top 5-6 keeper in the Prem.
Shaw and AWB really do seem to have less issues defensively than a lot of the other top team's FBs, but obviously that's partly because they don't go forward much.
Shaw and AWB really do seem to have less issues defensively than a lot of the other top team's FBs, but obviously that's partly because they don't go forward much.
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It's not been fixed but improved, yes. AWB is an upgrade on Young/Darmian and Maguire on Jones. We still need another CB to partner Maguire and LB to compete with Shaw.
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With more penalities than ever expected this season due to law/directive changes, this is a pretty big leak.
We didnt and our defense was exposed in the later stages of competitions last season leading us to be knocked out. Its also been very weak at the start of this season continuing the rot