He looked to be struggling against City,then again that applies to most teams facing them for last few monthsWould anyone take Modric on a short deal to allow us to sign a world class striker?
He’s the same age Scholes was when he returned and took the 22 shirt. I enjoyed that stint
ow definitely, but they were mainly pre 2008.That is true, I only said post SAF because I can't remember the years of which midfilders we used. My point is that some of Carrick's midfields were better.
Yeah my feeling as well. I hoped he would bring a more distinguishable difference to playstyle as well. Not that I am angry or disappointed, just a hope that didin't materialized. He certainly had understandable issues to overcome on top of that.Collectively City is a few levels above us, but their technical ability is just a level above I'd say. So all things considered we can actually play much better/technical/possession based football even with this bunch of players. We will not reach City level I agree, but I don't think we need as we're also already quite good in transition - we just need to add another dimension to our game.
City also got rid of top technical players in Cancelo and Zinchenko and it doesn't seem to affect them at all. This is much more than having the best of the best technical players. I really don't see that as an issue.
Bruno played two games in midfield where he looked superb composed on the ball, such a contrast on how he sometimes plays when he's rushing things. Same applies to Casemiro who started playing many more high risk passess in second half of the season. We as a team are not coached to keep the ball and ETH went for pragmatic approach this season (can't blame him but this is a bit disappointing). Again, I definitely don't think technical ability is keeping us from playing possession-based football. I'd say lack of legs in Casemiro and Eriksen is a far more pressing issue for this compared to their technical ability. It's just Gondogan/Rodri/De Bruyne/Bernardo are both technical AND mobile.
Well it's definitely not lack of technical ability that keeps him from being an effective player.
Ok. Those would be the things I'd list as well. Still think it is noticable that you put AWB and Eriksen into one category.It's not about skills galore it's about the core basics, touch, short passing, being able to move with the ball effectively and in tight spaces. We such at these compared to City.
Change perspective - it isn't downplaying City at all when somebody points out, that the (undeniable) distance in terms of technical ability between City and United IS NOT so big, that it categorically prevents United from playing a different game. Technicality is one aspect of Citys success but not the only one. Best example is their stretching of the pitch to make it as big as possible. It makes life a bit easier for their players because the tighter the room the more difficult is every task.It’s all, coaching, tactics, midfield/teamchemistry and above all technical ability. City’s players even if being slightly better technically makes a lot of difference. Some are more than just slightly better. If technical ability wouldn’t matter as much as you guys claim then Philipps would be playing much much more for them. Equally they wouldn’t have dropped the already highly technical Foden for the hidden gem Grealish who they bought for peanuts.
A good system with average and only a couple of above average to (very) good players will get you top 6 occasionally.
Aaverage system with average but also a number of good/very good players will get you top 2-4 every other season.
A good system with 16 players when most of them are either good or very good will get you the big trophies most of the time.
You can continue writing essays on downplaying City players’ technical ability but that doesn’t change their actual very high level of it.
PL is a different beast isn't it? So I wouldn't be a fan of it. Even though he still might be a good player. But I think, he needs to be backed by others and those "others" (or their lack of existence) has been a huge part of our problem for large amounts of time.Would anyone take Modric on a short deal to allow us to sign a world class striker?
He’s the same age Scholes was when he returned and took the 22 shirt. I enjoyed that stint
Fully agreed. About the Bruno bit - this is the reason why we play (effectively) a two man midfield. Bruno is very hardworking but not good defensively. Now going back to this thread main topic, for that reason plus the fact Casemiro is not in his prime years and has never really been a terrier, I'd love to sign Caicedo. One fact that is not mentioned often is that signing a guy like Caicedo means not only we're more sound in midfield, but also allows Casemiro more freedom to be a bit more attacking/braver as he doesn't need to worry what happens if he loses the ball. And Case has shown many times this season he's much more than a DM we thought he is. This is why I never liked the idea of playing Eriksen in CM (he's done better than I expected, but the problems are obvious) and now not sure about Mount.Yeah my feeling as well. I hoped he would bring a more distinguishable difference to playstyle as well. Not that I am angry or disappointed, just a hope that didin't materialized. He certainly had understandable issues to overcome on top of that.
Fore sure - this is an aspect, that gets lost on the way of many discussions. Be that talks about Fred, or zombie passing or possession. It has been better this season but we are still a bit lacklustre in terms of energy and intensity. Where would it come from though?! Wouldn't sign the notion, that the lack of legs is more problematic than technicalities but they are a factor for sure. Antony is a breath of fresh air, but apart from it, nobody really stands out - maybe apart from Bruno who makes sure to look very busy but I often think, it could be just PR. Because he often isn't very effective against the ball. Same with Rashford. If the real intention of getting the ball isn't there, pressing becomes futile in some situations. Sancho, Rashford, Case, Eriksen, AWB, Dalot, Shaw - none of them stands out negatively from an intensity standpoint but also none does positively. I think, this is also something that is very impressive in Pep teams - they are running. Be that because of substances, I don't know, but they are doing it and it surely helps them creating passing options. Which then helps them pass more which then also creates the impression of a high technical level. Not that they aren't - but their style is helping with it.
We are totally aligned on this. I understand that ETH wanted a technical player in his midfield and it certainly is logical to make use of Eriksen there but to be honest, I was baffled that had such a prominent role from the very beginning onwards. I thought, he was brought in simply to cover for Bruno on the 10 position. I liked Caicedo already when there was talk about him before he joined Brighton. A real shame we didn't risk it back then. Will never understand, why it took so freaking long before we finally brought in somebody with a ball winning skillset. We could have done it years earlier, be it a young player, a veteran, a complete no-name. Still would have helped because our midfield lacked such a skillset so long. And it does still as soon as Casemiro isn't on the pitch. I'd go for Caicedo as well. With the age profile of our midfield, it seems like a no brainer.Fully agreed. About the Bruno bit - this is the reason why we play (effectively) a two man midfield. Bruno is very hardworking but not good defensively. Now going back to this thread main topic, for that reason plus the fact Casemiro is not in his prime years and has never really been a terrier, I'd love to sign Caicedo. One fact that is not mentioned often is that signing a guy like Caicedo means not only we're more sound in midfield, but also allows Casemiro more freedom to be a bit more attacking/braver as he doesn't need to worry what happens if he loses the ball. And Case has shown many times this season he's much more than a DM we thought he is. This is why I never liked the idea of playing Eriksen in CM (he's done better than I expected, but the problems are obvious) and now not sure about Mount.
Last season city travelled the shortest distance in the PL, I believe he achieved around this every season because efficient possession means you do less work.Yeah my feeling as well. I hoped he would bring a more distinguishable difference to playstyle as well. Not that I am angry or disappointed, just a hope that didin't materialized. He certainly had understandable issues to overcome on top of that.
Fore sure - this is an aspect, that gets lost on the way of many discussions. Be that talks about Fred, or zombie passing or possession. It has been better this season but we are still a bit lacklustre in terms of energy and intensity. Where would it come from though?! Wouldn't sign the notion, that the lack of legs is more problematic than technicalities but they are a factor for sure. Antony is a breath of fresh air, but apart from it, nobody really stands out - maybe apart from Bruno who makes sure to look very busy but I often think, it could be just PR. Because he often isn't very effective against the ball. Same with Rashford. If the real intention of getting the ball isn't there, pressing becomes futile in some situations. Sancho, Rashford, Case, Eriksen, AWB, Dalot, Shaw - none of them stands out negatively from an intensity standpoint but also none does positively. I think, this is also something that is very impressive in Pep teams - they are running. Be that because of substances, I don't know, but they are doing it and it surely helps them creating passing options. Which then helps them pass more which then also creates the impression of a high technical level. Not that they aren't - but their style is helping with it.
Ok. Those would be the things I'd list as well. Still think it is noticable that you put AWB and Eriksen into one category.
Change perspective - it isn't downplaying City at all when somebody points out, that the (undeniable) distance in terms of technical ability between City and United IS NOT so big, that it categorically prevents United from playing a different game. Technicality is one aspect of Citys success but not the only one. Best example is their stretching of the pitch to make it as big as possible. It makes life a bit easier for their players because the tighter the room the more difficult is every task.
PL is a different beast isn't it? So I wouldn't be a fan of it. Even though he still might be a good player. But I think, he needs to be backed by others and those "others" (or their lack of existence) has been a huge part of our problem for large amounts of time.
I agree with this. If we could sign Caicedo and Kane this summer, and nobody else (no Mount), I think we'd be fine next year.Fully agreed. About the Bruno bit - this is the reason why we play (effectively) a two man midfield. Bruno is very hardworking but not good defensively. Now going back to this thread main topic, for that reason plus the fact Casemiro is not in his prime years and has never really been a terrier, I'd love to sign Caicedo. One fact that is not mentioned often is that signing a guy like Caicedo means not only we're more sound in midfield, but also allows Casemiro more freedom to be a bit more attacking/braver as he doesn't need to worry what happens if he loses the ball. And Case has shown many times this season he's much more than a DM we thought he is. This is why I never liked the idea of playing Eriksen in CM (he's done better than I expected, but the problems are obvious) and now not sure about Mount.
That is only part of his role though.I don't agree with what I read about Bruno. If he would play for City in De Bruyne's position he would be regarded as one fo the best players in the league. He creates literally tons of chances.
I say maybe because I have high hopes for Mainoo but he might go on loanThere is no maybe about it we need two and one has to be more sound technically
Great post.This will be an unpopular opinion and hard for many to swallow but if we really want to build a great midfield then Bruno can’t be apart of it. He has many good qualities and good moments of character but he is terrible under preasure, has an average first touch, doesn’t seem like he can take the ball on the turn or the back foot and worst of all his passing can be very poor. He messes up so many simple little passes ands it’s crazy to me someone who can pull off some of the passes he does can be so inconsistent when it comes to the simple stuff.
The he creates many chances thing is overblown as if you actually look at the chances they don’t tend to be of a great quality or in positions where they would be a major threat. Is he capable of the sublime, yes he is but its Not frequent enough that it covers the rest of his game.
Now maybe hiding him out on the wing and just letting him wonder around is a better fit for him and us as it would take a hell of a call to move him on as right now yes he is essential to us.
Now if 2 players came on the market that could offer half of what Bruno does but are much better at passing, keeping possesion under preasure and could travel with the ball and just generally more athletic then I’d wager replacing he and Eriksen would massively increase our fortunes.
Obviously there is more to this than just swapping out two players as there are many positions where people need to do much better than what they offer.
Its just I can’t help but watch our midfield and how poor they are at dropping in to space and creating passing options for one another. Many blame the goalkeeper and CB’s for our inhability to pass out from the back but to me it’s as much a fault of our midfield if not more so than the defence. One might dro- in to pick up the ball but then the others don’t move to create a passing option. They all stand like statues.
This is probably mainly due to our over reliance on one ball over the top to Rashford. He is often poised to make that run instead of dropping in to recieve a pass. Antony and Sancho will drop in but as soon as they do then there is no passing option unless they create it themselves as the midfield just doesn’t give enough options.
Now Casemiro maybe has 2 years left so a long term replacement for him is going to be needed as well but after a striker midfield to me is our biggest priority.
Should add that maybe a striker like Osimhen would turn some of these Bruno half chances or poor chances in to goals as I’ve seen him make gold out of straw but still think if we really want to be up there then probably only Cas is safe for now in my opinion.
Thank you, I know to many it’ll probably read as an attack on Bruno but it’s really not meant to be.Great post.
Yeah they would both be more vulnerable in this side IF we didn't have much more pressing issues in the first XI and squadThank you, I know to many it’ll probably read as an attack on Bruno but it’s really not meant to be.
I agree with what many say that he is for right now one of our match winners. But unfortunately I view a team as a collective of many parts and sometimes to have the best collective you have to sacrifice things and for me he is one of the things we’d have to sacrifice to improve.
Rashford is kind of another in that the likes of he and Bruno are very good at a certain thing but at times it doesn’t feel best suited to a conducive unit if that makes sense. Eriksen for example has many more complimentary attributes for the collective but again he has aspects that can’t be papered over or covered for where as Rashford you probably could cover.
Anyway right now the midfield seems like more of a stop gap midfield till we build the real one. What that consists of I guess we’ll find out over the next 2 seasons.
This just isn't true, and it's something that can be measured instead of you saying the chances he creates aren't of great quality and me saying no you're wrong. Fernandes has spent 3 full seasons in the Premier League, and in 2 of the 3 he's ranked at the very top in total expected assists (2nd in the league on a per-90-minute basis, behind De Bruyne). He is quite literally one of the best in the league at creating high-quality chances, whatever you want to say about his weaknesses.The he creates many chances thing is overblown as if you actually look at the chances they don’t tend to be of a great quality or in positions where they would be a major threat.
How do they even measure XG? Because there was a chance creation map put up a month ago on this site and it showed that most of the chances he creates are not in positions you would class as extremely dangerous. To be honest most of them seemed like long balls over the top to Rashford. There was very little penetration in to the box from him.This just isn't true, and it's something that can be measured instead of you saying the chances he creates aren't of great quality and me saying no you're wrong. Fernandes has spent 3 full seasons in the Premier League, and in 2 of the 3 he's ranked at the very top in total expected assists (2nd in the league on a per-90-minute basis, behind De Bruyne). He is quite literally one of the best in the league at creating high-quality chances, whatever you want to say about his weaknesses.
This season, his expected number was over double the assists he actually managed, which lines up exactly with how I saw the season: he's been creating excellent chances and our team has been terrible at finishing (Fernandes's own goal tally from open play is below expected too, which also makes sense considering some of the sitters he missed).
It's a lot of half chances from what I see, and they add up to a good score.How do they even measure XG? Because there was a chance creation map put up a month ago on this site and it showed that most of the chances he creates are not in positions you would class as extremely dangerous. To be honest most of them seemed like long balls over the top to Rashford. There was very little penetration in to the box from him.
Personally I think if you’re a really good creative player then you can do it against teams that aren’t allowing much space and pull teams apart and make a guilt edge chance like a Grealish or KDB would. That just isn’t him. He just doesn’t seem to be able to break the lines unless he is popping a ball in to loads of space.
I mean this is nothing I can prove statisticly but watching over the season I just don’t think he creates what I would class as a dead cert where I’m left questioning how the player didn’t finish that. But then I don’t tend to put much faith in statistics especially after the rubbish I saw on the positions of DeGea for Gundogans second goal. Statistical models are only half decent if the people using them have a bit of common sense.
This isn't a debate worth getting into, because it's been done dozens of times on here with usernames swapped around. I'm going to say literally every stat available points to Fernandes being a consistent creative threat, among the best in the PL if not Europe: in addition to the expected assists number I already gave (and the way it's measured is well-documented), he also consistently plays among the most key passes in the top leagues, he's among the best for passes into the penalty area (2nd, 3rd and 4th in the PL in his full seasons here - I find it strange that you watch us all season and say there's very little "penetration in to the box" from Fernandes), he's among the highest for shot-creating actions, and anything else I can be arsed to pull up.How do they even measure XG? Because there was a chance creation map put up a month ago on this site and it showed that most of the chances he creates are not in positions you would class as extremely dangerous. To be honest most of them seemed like long balls over the top to Rashford. There was very little penetration in to the box from him.
Personally I think if you’re a really good creative player then you can do it against teams that aren’t allowing much space and pull teams apart and make a guilt edge chance like a Grealish or KDB would. That just isn’t him. He just doesn’t seem to be able to break the lines unless he is popping a ball in to loads of space.
I mean this is nothing I can prove statisticly but watching over the season I just don’t think he creates what I would class as a dead cert where I’m left questioning how the player didn’t finish that. But then I don’t tend to put much faith in statistics especially after the rubbish I saw on the positions of DeGea for Gundogans second goal. Statistical models are only half decent if the people using them have a bit of common sense.
Great post and completely agree.This will be an unpopular opinion and hard for many to swallow but if we really want to build a great midfield then Bruno can’t be apart of it. He has many good qualities and good moments of character but he is terrible under preasure, has an average first touch, doesn’t seem like he can take the ball on the turn or the back foot and worst of all his passing can be very poor. He messes up so many simple little passes ands it’s crazy to me someone who can pull off some of the passes he does can be so inconsistent when it comes to the simple stuff.
The he creates many chances thing is overblown as if you actually look at the chances they don’t tend to be of a great quality or in positions where they would be a major threat. Is he capable of the sublime, yes he is but its Not frequent enough that it covers the rest of his game.
Now maybe hiding him out on the wing and just letting him wonder around is a better fit for him and us as it would take a hell of a call to move him on as right now yes he is essential to us.
Now if 2 players came on the market that could offer half of what Bruno does but are much better at passing, keeping possesion under preasure and could travel with the ball and just generally more athletic then I’d wager replacing he and Eriksen would massively increase our fortunes.
Obviously there is more to this than just swapping out two players as there are many positions where people need to do much better than what they offer.
Its just I can’t help but watch our midfield and how poor they are at dropping in to space and creating passing options for one another. Many blame the goalkeeper and CB’s for our inhability to pass out from the back but to me it’s as much a fault of our midfield if not more so than the defence. One might dro- in to pick up the ball but then the others don’t move to create a passing option. They all stand like statues.
This is probably mainly due to our over reliance on one ball over the top to Rashford. He is often poised to make that run instead of dropping in to recieve a pass. Antony and Sancho will drop in but as soon as they do then there is no passing option unless they create it themselves as the midfield just doesn’t give enough options.
Now Casemiro maybe has 2 years left so a long term replacement for him is going to be needed as well but after a striker midfield to me is our biggest priority.
Should add that maybe a striker like Osimhen would turn some of these Bruno half chances or poor chances in to goals as I’ve seen him make gold out of straw but still think if we really want to be up there then probably only Cas is safe for now in my opinion.
Who do you think we should bring in that could improve our ability to keep the ball in midfieldGreat post and completely agree.
It blows my mind how many times Bruno loses possession for us. He can create chances with his incredible vision, but too often he feels like the place where out attacks go to wither and die.
We rarely build up play through our midfield – the majority of times when Bruno gets it he will pass it straight backwards to where it came from, instead of turning and advancing up the pitch.
