Our Progress

[Roboc7]

People did get massively carried away with the progress they could see, to keep its always been fairly clear Ole had already done all he could do.

Last season was no different to when Jose finished second we were miles off the pace, needed new management, better coaching, better tactics as well as squad improvements to bridge the gap. We’ve spent years going full circle even to the extent of collapsing the following season and everything turning toxic.

Ole does leave behind better players but also a bloated and unbalanced squad. Lots of issues for next manager to resolve, no playing style, poor fitness and/or effort levels. Even though a bad environment does seem to be developing that’s common when it goes wrong and as soon as manager goes that tends to go with then as we found when Jose left.

 

[Adam-Utd]

No.

My opinion. Compared to Mourinho it's a hell of a lot better.

We've scored 6 a few times, 9 once.

It's not always been bad under Ole.

 

[Idxomer]

My opinion. Compared to Mourinho it's a hell of a lot better.

We've scored 6 a few times, 9 once.

It's not always been bad under Ole.

Our goals per game record isn't much better under Ole despite two campaigns in the EL.

It's slightly more entertaining than Mourinho's football, but it's not an exciting brand of football in general.

 

[acnumber9]

entertaining football,

Sometimes. It’s far from the norm though.

 

[redrobed]

No way, there’s still a long season ahead and we can still challenge, what’s the point of writing it off now if we get Conte? If you’re gonna write off the season might aswell stick with Ole as he’ll probably manage top 4 by the skin of his teeth

I just think the league’s too competitive at the top nowadays for a team to drop the points we have and still come back and win it - we’d need all 3 of City, Liverpool and Chelsea to give up 6-8 points vs us. I just don’t see it.

 

[Loony BoB]

I'd definitely say we play more attacking football under Ole, and for me that's the entertainment, so I'm in the "yes, we play entertaining football" camp. My problem is not our attack but our defence, and I don't think it's so much to do with Ole but his coaching team who, quite frankly, are generally rather unqualified. I like Carrick, but I don't think he warranted going to Assistant Manager without having even coached before. Fletcher as DoF is crazy too. I generally feel Ole earned his stint as a caretaker by having actually succeeded in a lower league, and his stint as caretaker was too impressive to not give him the job. It was quite frankly outstanding. I do feel Ole got his role through work and effort. I don't think Fletcher, Carrick or McKenna have earned their stripes enough to justify being assistant managers or DoF at United.

And I really, really, really like Fletcher. Was always one of my fave players. Still think it's ridiculous.

 

[RedBanker]

My opinion. Compared to Mourinho it's a hell of a lot better.

We've scored 6 a few times, 9 once.

It's not always been bad under Ole.

Hell lot better my arse. Scored 6 twice iirc. And Nine against a ten man Soton.

 

[Loony BoB]

Hell lot better my arse. Scored 6 twice iirc. And Nine against a ten man Soton.

Jose never saw us score more than four goals during his time in charge. Ole's done it at least ten times, including that 9-0 you mentioned.

 

[Bebestation]

Hell lot better my arse. Scored 6 twice iirc. And Nine against a ten man Soton.

To be fair people bring up the 6-1 loss against Spurs but that was against a 10 man United.

 

[RedBanker]

To be fair people bring up the 6-1 loss against Spurs but that was against a 10 man United.

Yes. That's why I don't consider it as a catastrophe in isolation. But the overall tenure leading up to a 5-0 humbling against arch rivals at home, wherein the opponents brazenly pitied us by not scoring after we were down to 10 has been one.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Jose never saw us score more than four goals during his time in charge. Ole's done it at least ten times, including that 9-0 you mentioned.

Exactly. I want Ole out as much as the next guy but you can't argue and say he didn't bring some exciting performances. It's been a LOT better than Mourinho/LVG in terms of entertainment for me.

 

[RUCK4444]

I will never understand some posters determination to erase any shred of positivity from Ole's time here. It's nothing more than petty and agenda driven.

Yes we've gone backwards this season, prior to that we've had ups and downs but had season-on-season progression in the squad recruitment and in league position. Those are two unequivocal facts and in the absence of a prime candidate to replace him (as we are seeing all too clearly right now) it was right to continue with him, this season we have gone backwards so it's time to look at a successor, that doesn't mean his entire time here has been some sort of joke like many seem to claim.

*Before I get responses claiming 'oh Liverpool had injuries and Lamps was at Chelsea' and 'this team isn't talented / balanced' bore off with that what-iffery and nonsense. He's leaving us in a better place than his predecessors, period.

When Ole took over I was underwhelmed like many, but I had key areas I wanted to see improvement on before even thinking about competing for trophies and he quickly started to tick these boxes and being a United man it was easy to get behind him when you can clearly see he wants the best for the club every bit as much as us fans, that this was his dream job and he enjoys every moment of it and respects the badge, unlike the clown who left before him who from the moment he arrived looked like a sulking schoolboy who resented the job.

He's done a far better job of assembling a talented squad than the three men before him, a squad that many managers will be over the moon to work with. All pundits at least agree he's done a decent job of that until this point. He's had money, yes, but he's not squandered it, unless you like to pretend all his signings are rubbish when they quite clearly aren't.

His good times were much better and far more entertaining than his predecessors as others have pointed out, he's wanted us to attack and score goals freely and we've had some great results as well as the bad. The good times, lot's of dramatic comebacks and late winners have at least reminded me of what its like to have my club back, how I remember it, these results perhaps naively strengthened the backing of him from certain sections, including myself, but at least there were moments of entertainment.

I hope now he can go with some dignity and respect. I concede he's taken us as far as he can but I respect the man for re-setting the mindset here from our lowest point under Mourinho and for leaving us a better club than when he arrived, with a foundation from which to build with a new manager. It's not what we hoped he may achieve but a lot more than many expected when he took over as caretaker.

 

[tomaldinho1]

My opinion. Compared to Mourinho it's a hell of a lot better.

We've scored 6 a few times, 9 once.

It's not always been bad under Ole.

Be interesting to see the variance here, I suspect Ole will average much lower scoring games in general and also have the more extreme results (9-0 Soton, the Leeds' games) whereas Mou was 40 FC for a while. If you're assessing who i smore entertaining, it will be whichever manager more commonly scored more goals.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Be interesting to see the variance here, I suspect Ole will average much lower scoring games in general and also have the more extreme results (9-0 Soton, the Leeds' games) whereas Mou was 40 FC for a while. If you're assessing who i smore entertaining, it will be whichever manager more commonly scored more goals.

maybe we can start a poll, but I know a lot of recency bias effects people's minds.

I don't think we've ever been boring to watch compared to some of Jose's offerings that's for sure.

Bad? plenty. Boring? no.

 

[tomaldinho1]

maybe we can start a poll, but I know a lot of recency bias effects people's minds.

I don't think we've ever been boring to watch compared to some of Jose's offerings that's for sure.

Bad? plenty. Boring? no.

Jose definitely worse - apart from his first season which was actually him trying a more expansive style which didn't really work out and we were just crap at finishing. I actually don't know who would have the best score if we calculated variance, both managers used to disguise a lot of boring games with some big wins along the way.

 

[Loony BoB]

Jose definitely worse - apart from his first season which was actually him trying a more expansive style which didn't really work out and we were just crap at finishing. I actually don't know who would have the best score if we calculated variance, both managers used to disguise a lot of boring games with some big wins along the way.

You point out his first season not really working, but that was the only season he won trophies for us. Although personally I'd say (agree, assuming this is what you mean) that his second season was indeed better as I consider actually making the top four more important than the EFL Cup and Europa.

 

[Sviken]

You point out his first season not really working, but that was the only season he won trophies for us. Although personally I'd say (agree, assuming this is what you mean) that his second season was indeed better as I consider actually making the top four more important than the EFL Cup and Europa.

I'd rather have CL football via the EL and the donkey cup than getting in CL via second. They don't give you trophies or remember who finished second.

 

[Robbie Boy]

No manager in history at a top level club will ever be judged again on marginal progress and resetting a culture. The metrics to judge Ole have been borderline lunacy.

 

[tomaldinho1]

You point out his first season not really working, but that was the only season he won trophies for us. Although personally I'd say (agree, assuming this is what you mean) that his second season was indeed better as I consider actually making the top four more important than the EFL Cup and Europa.

That was in relation to how boring we were, Jose's first season was actually really exciting when you compare it what has followed afterwards. Just as a barometer, ook at the xG by season.

16/17: Home xG of 2.29, Away xG of 1.64...There was definitely a focus on trying more expansive play at OT and then just picking up points away.
17/18: Home xG of 1.5, Away xG of 1.62...Now he reverted to type, same setup Home and Away, result is everything.

Re Top four or EL win and CL qualification - in a one off scenario you take EL trophy every time. It's a 2nd rate trophy in my eyes but it's better than nothing. Who cares if you finish 2nd or 6th if you have CL the next season if you're never in the title race? Maybe, if you were looking for progress, you'd take the 2nd season and 2nd place finish and hope it would be a foundation for a title challenge the next year.

 

[devilish]

Ole - entertaining football,

Liverpool fans agree

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Was always something of “false progress” anyhow.

Took over a team that had months earlier finished a season on 81 points.
Ole went on to finish that half season on 66 points, followed by 66 points, followed by 74 points, with no trophy to show either.
And that after spending an absolute fortune, all the time looking disorganised as feck and as likely to go on a losing streak as a winning one. He’s on course now for 59 points, but I think this squad would eventually find another good run of form if he stayed and he’d get us his yearly 70-ish points.
That’s what Ole is, he’ll never turn a side into more than the sum of it’s parts. Give him more and more WC players and his squad will grab a few more points, but that’s the ceiling.

Harsh but fair.

As Jonathan Wilson said, we’re stuck in a fecked up situation where the quality of the individual players is almost too good to get Ole sacked, no matter how poor his abilities as a manager.

 

[Adam-Utd]

You point out his first season not really working, but that was the only season he won trophies for us. Although personally I'd say (agree, assuming this is what you mean) that his second season was indeed better as I consider actually making the top four more important than the EFL Cup and Europa.

That was in relation to how boring we were, Jose's first season was actually really exciting when you compare it what has followed afterwards. Just as a barometer, ook at the xG by season.

16/17: Home xG of 2.29, Away xG of 1.64...There was definitely a focus on trying more expansive play at OT and then just picking up points away.
17/18: Home xG of 1.5, Away xG of 1.62...Now he reverted to type, same setup Home and Away, result is everything.

Re Top four or EL win and CL qualification - in a one off scenario you take EL trophy every time. It's a 2nd rate trophy in my eyes but it's better than nothing. Who cares if you finish 2nd or 6th if you have CL the next season if you're never in the title race? Maybe, if you were looking for progress, you'd take the 2nd season and 2nd place finish and hope it would be a foundation for a title challenge the next year.

First season was heavily carried by Ibrahimovic and Pogba.

When Ibra left and Lukaku replaced him it never really worked out.

 

[sullydnl]

Something we should probably bear in mind going forward is that unless you actually win the league, league position in and of itself is a flawed way of measuring progress.

With both Ole and Mourinho we have finished 2nd while overachieving on our underlying performances and data. And in both cases we have been immediately overtaken by teams who finished lower than us but had been outperforming us in terms of underlying performances and data.

Finishing in the top four is important because of CL qualification. But beyond that nothing should really be read into the difference between finishing 4th and finishing 2nd in terms of which team is more likely to progress from that point on. Many (including myself) were probably too quick to see finishing 2nd last year as firmer evidence of progress than it actually was.

When in reality in every season since 17/18 we've been either 4th or 5th best in the league in terms of a measure like xGD. Meanwhile City and Liverpool have been the top two by that measure in every one of those years bar one, with Liverpool slipping to third last year. So for all the change, rebuilding and talk of progress, where the level of our underlying performances actually ranks compared to our rivals has been pretty consistent throughout.

Obviously there are ancillary measures of progress too (adjusting the age or playing profile of the squad, for example) which shouldn't be discounted. And obviously minor cup wins (although involving so much luck as to sometimes hide underlying problems) would be achievements in themselves. But generally speaking from now on we should pay more attention to those underlying performances/data when trying to see if we're improving and fall less for the "we've finished 2nd so we must be doing well" line of thinking. If we're still consistently playing like the 4th/5th best team in the league in a few years time then there won't have been much progress from this point.

 

[tomaldinho1]

First season was heavily carried by Ibrahimovic and Pogba.

When Ibra left and Lukaku replaced him it never really worked out.

Agreed, Pogba and Ibra had a great understanding on the pitch

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Something we should probably bear in mind going forward is that unless you actually win the league, league position in and of itself is a flawed way of measuring progress.

With both Ole and Mourinho we have finished 2nd while overachieving on our underlying performances and data. And in both cases we have been immediately overtaken by teams who finished lower than us but had been outperforming us in terms of underlying performances and data.

Finishing in the top four is important because of CL qualification. But beyond that nothing should really be read into the difference between finishing 4th and finishing 2nd in terms of which team is more likely to progress from that point on. Many (including myself) were probably too quick to see finishing 2nd last year as firmer evidence of progress than it actually was.

When in reality in every season since 17/18 we've been either 4th or 5th best in the league in terms of a measure like xGD. Meanwhile City and Liverpool have been the top two by that measure in every one of those years bar one, with Liverpool slipping to third last year. So for all the change, rebuilding and talk of progress, where the level of our underlying performances actually ranks compared to our rivals has been pretty consistent throughout.

Obviously there are ancillary measures of progress too (adjusting the age or playing profile of the squad, for example) which shouldn't be discounted. And obviously minor cup wins (although involving so much luck as to sometimes hide underlying problems) would be achievements in themselves. But generally speaking from now on we should pay more attention to those underlying performances/data when trying to see if we're improving and fall less for the "we've finished 2nd so we must be doing well" line of thinking. If we're still consistently playing like the 4th/5th best team in the league in a few years time then there won't have been much progress from this point.

You don’t even need to crunch stats to know that our 2nd place last season was more about our top four rivals having an unusually crap season than anything very impressive from us. I mean, two of them did so badly they sacked their managers half way through the season. Then you had Liverpool with long term injuries to all their best centre backs at once. Join the fecking dots.

 

[IncyWincySpider]

The lack of silverware over the last three years was only palatable on the basis that we were working towards something. It is now painfully clear to everyone that we were working towards nothing. This is Manchester United. Progress means trophies. We've won F' All and are out of the title race in October. There has been no progress.

 

[Stacks]

But that doesn't mean that we are guaranteed to copy the remaining fixtures as well.

There's a reason for why Mourinho wasn't sacked after 9 games. It's not a whole lot of data and there's too much left of the season to definitely conclude that he can't turn it around. At some point the data look bleak enough to warrant a sacking, which is what it ended up doing for Mourinho. I'm sure that Ole will get the same treatment if we're in a similar position in mid December(if he survives that long).




Ole's 2020 summer wasn't much better than this and his start to the season was even rougher. He still kept his chin up. Mourinho is just a very miserable man when things aren't going exactly the way he wants it.

80 million, 50million, 16million in Summer then 50+ million in Jan. seems similar to signing Dalot and Fred.

I’m of the opinion that Ole needs to go but it’s not nearly as extreme as many are making out. The squad is a lot better than when he joined. There was progression - he got us to 3rd - then 2nd - the problem is this season he absolutely had to be part of a title race. To at least feel like we’re still in it come April. The reality is now of we keep Ole we’ll come somewhere between 4th and 6th. Even if we get Conte - we come 4th. It’s this season the wheels have fallen off.

please see below.

Was always something of “false progress” anyhow.

Took over a team that had months earlier finished a season on 81 points.
Ole went on to finish that half season on 66 points, followed by 66 points, followed by 74 points, with no trophy to show either.
And that after spending an absolute fortune, all the time looking disorganised as feck and as likely to go on a losing streak as a winning one. He’s on course now for 59 points, but I think this squad would eventually find another good run of form if he stayed and he’d get us his yearly 70-ish points.
That’s what Ole is, he’ll never turn a side into more than the sum of it’s parts. Give him more and more WC players and his squad will grab a few more points, but that’s the ceiling.

 

[SAFMUTD]

No manager in history at a top level club will ever be judged again on marginal progress and resetting a culture. The metrics to judge Ole have been borderline lunacy.

Wait until the "he's leaving us in a better place" argument, worse offensive and defensive record, worse goal difference, less points, with a divided unsettled squad. With a bunch of players that many critique as not good enough but in a better place.

Nice rebuild job there.

 

[Stacks]

I will never understand some posters determination to erase any shred of positivity from Ole's time here. It's nothing more than petty and agenda driven.

Yes we've gone backwards this season, prior to that we've had ups and downs but had season-on-season progression in the squad recruitment and in league position. Those are two unequivocal facts and in the absence of a prime candidate to replace him (as we are seeing all too clearly right now) it was right to continue with him, this season we have gone backwards so it's time to look at a successor, that doesn't mean his entire time here has been some sort of joke like many seem to claim.

*Before I get responses claiming 'oh Liverpool had injuries and Lamps was at Chelsea' and 'this team isn't talented / balanced' bore off with that what-iffery and nonsense. He's leaving us in a better place than his predecessors, period.

When Ole took over I was underwhelmed like many, but I had key areas I wanted to see improvement on before even thinking about competing for trophies and he quickly started to tick these boxes and being a United man it was easy to get behind him when you can clearly see he wants the best for the club every bit as much as us fans, that this was his dream job and he enjoys every moment of it and respects the badge, unlike the clown who left before him who from the moment he arrived looked like a sulking schoolboy who resented the job.

He's done a far better job of assembling a talented squad than the three men before him, a squad that many managers will be over the moon to work with. All pundits at least agree he's done a decent job of that until this point. He's had money, yes, but he's not squandered it, unless you like to pretend all his signings are rubbish when they quite clearly aren't.

His good times were much better and far more entertaining than his predecessors as others have pointed out, he's wanted us to attack and score goals freely and we've had some great results as well as the bad. The good times, lot's of dramatic comebacks and late winners have at least reminded me of what its like to have my club back, how I remember it, these results perhaps naively strengthened the backing of him from certain sections, including myself, but at least there were moments of entertainment.

I hope now he can go with some dignity and respect. I concede he's taken us as far as he can but I respect the man for re-setting the mindset here from our lowest point under Mourinho and for leaving us a better club than when he arrived, with a foundation from which to build with a new manager. It's not what we hoped he may achieve but a lot more than many expected when he took over as caretaker.

I agree. I feel that the issue is mainly he himself doesn't know how to use or integrate some of his signings he has made, but many have talent. I do feel he spent too much on okish defenders with massive flaws (Maguire and AWB) but then we signed Verane so a good defensive coach could sort this out. I am keen to see what DOnny and Jadon can do under proper guidance so I am looking forward to the next manager/coach and what he/she can do with these players.

 

[OleBoiii]

80 million, 50million, 16million in Summer then 50+ million in Jan. seems similar to signing Dalot and Fred.

I wrote 2020, not 2021. Cavani, Telles, VDB + 2 youth players is not significantly better than Dalot and Fred, who were both signed to be starters.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Wait until the "he's leaving us in a better place" argument, worse offensive and defensive record, worse goal difference, less points, with a divided unsettled squad. With a bunch of players that many critique as not good enough but in a better place.

Nice rebuild job there.

He done some good things yeah, but over time they have reached mythical levels. For me, the negatives far outweigh the positives. There's a reason why the likes of 'man management', 'cultural reset' and 'rebuild' have been so overstated, and it's because of a lack of tangible on-field success to praise him for. You know, the thing literally all managers at top clubs are judged on.

 

[Loony BoB]

Wait until the "he's leaving us in a better place" argument, worse offensive and defensive record, worse goal difference, less points, with a divided unsettled squad. With a bunch of players that many critique as not good enough but in a better place.

Nice rebuild job there.

This is factually incorrect if you're comparing him to the previous 3 managers. Also, "in a better place" can't be judged on statistics alone.

 

[SAFMUTD]

He done some good things yeah, but over time they have reached mythical levels. For me, the negatives far outweigh the positives. There's a reason why the likes of 'man management', 'cultural reset' and 'rebuild' have been so overstated, and it's because of a lack of tangible on-field success to praise him for. You know, the thing literally are managers at top clubs are judged on.

Exactly those concepts are so ethereal/intangible that were used by himself and then by his fans as something unique. Hey we haven't won a thing nor are close to it but he's "setting up the bases" based on results or performances? Nah bruh cultural reset, the rebuild is ON ManUtd DNA!

It's a tactic from Ole, just notice how often he keeps mentioning the past. "Under Sir Alex" "in the old days" "back in the day" bunch of sentimental nonsense.

 

[SAFMUTD]

This is factually incorrect if you're comparing him to the previous 3 managers. Also, "in a better place" can't be judged on statistics alone.

Exactly, since stats are not in his favour let's take the intangibles and argue that he's way better. He's leaving worse results but better vibes, hell of a rebuild.

 

[Flexdegea]

We improved every season he been there but this season we have seemed to have fallen of the cliff.


I think all that "Ole in" talk was stupid, basically seemed to be anyone who thinks he done a good job, and was happy with him was threw into that camp. Didn't understand it.


I think he done a really bad job this season. Hasn't managed the squad well at all. Lot of the problems I think he's caused himself and at the moment seems to be taking away from the good he has done in the job because everyone just this is shit and that is shit, but apparently everyone is so shite connected with the club, but a manager tweak right now doesn't matter who it is, it all be good again I'm assuming.



I think hes goner, but the club haven't planned for next manager and don't want to rush right into it, and don't have a interim lined up.

unlike some folk I would love if we could magically turn it around and get the points from the next 3 games. I'm not thinking that be class because Ole might get to stay longer, I just want to see us do well, could still salvage something, and would never want us to lose any games.

Not even sure a new manager stepping in right now would even deliver straight away either for the next 3 games.


The timing of the season and this run is brutal at the moment.

 

[sullydnl]

You don’t even need to crunch stats to know that our 2nd place last season was more about our top four rivals having an unusually crap season than anything very impressive from us. I mean, two of them did so badly they sacked their managers half way through the season. Join the fecking dots.

I was thinking as much of that Mourinho season tbh. I can remember quite a lot of posters arguing that our 2nd place finish and UEFA cup win was proof that we were progressing and in a better position to win the league the following season than a team like Liverpool, who finished behind us in fourth and lost in the CL. Their CL appearance that season was supposedly just a flukey cup run, the constant talk of them playing better than us was media bias, they only had one way of playing, Klopp was a serial bottler while Mou was a proven winner, etc etc.

Season after that while we imploded they were narrowly edged out in a title race. Even the Ajax team we beat in the cup final that year immediately progressed better than us, reaching the semi-finals of the the CL the following season. A realistic look at the way we were actually playing football would have made those issues clear but in the absence of that ability to be realistic, the data spelt it out pretty well too.

 

[iHicksy]

As pleased as I will be to see Ole gone because he's not got the tactical acumen to take us back to the top. He most certainly leaves us in a stronger position than any manager post SAF. He's repaired the culture of the club and gotten rid of the toxic atmosphere created by LvG and Jose. He's leaving the next manager with the absolute strongest squad we've had in many a year with a wealth of attacking talent and on paper a fantastic defence. I'm confident that a truely great manager can come in and get us back challenging. There's no squad building or project here. There's a ready made title challenging squad waiting to be tapped into.

 

[Loony BoB]

Exactly, since stats are not in his favour let's take the intangibles and argue that he's way better. He's leaving worse results but better vibes, hell of a rebuild.

As I stated in my post, your "tangibles" are inaccurate. He does not have a poorer record than the previous three managers. You can argue a case if you only use certain statistics, but he is very similar overall to Jose's record, the main difference being Ole scoring more per game (1.8 to 1.6) and conceding more per game (1.1 to 0.9). Generally their goal difference and points per game are very similar, and Ole has a better record in almost every way to Moyes and LVG with the exception of goals conceded per game. If you want the raw statistics I can provide them.

 

[RUCK4444]

I agree. I feel that the issue is mainly he himself doesn't know how to use or integrate some of his signings he has made, but many have talent. I do feel he spent too much on okish defenders with massive floors (Maguire and AWB) but then we signed Verane so a good defensive coach could sort this out. I am keen to see what DOnny and Jadon can do under proper guidance so I am looking forward to the next manager/coach and what he/she can do with these players.

Yeah no signing is perfect but even the two you mentioned are for the most part very solid, overpriced, but solid. A new coach could work wonders with the squad we have, add a top DM into the mix and the players we have in midfield also become far better options than they are currently.

Which is why I would prefer a coach like Ten Haag who will work with what he has and put his stamp on the squad and our approach/tactics, where Ole has sadly fallen short. My worry with somebody like Conte is that he may rip up a lot of the squad and look to get other players in, which is of course what a lot of managers do and I'm not knocking him as a manager, but I don't think that is the best fit for United right now.

We need somebody to tap into what we've built and get the best out of them whilst firmly stamping a clear style of play on us, so every player to a man knows exactly how we play and what's expected.

 

[SAFMUTD]

As I stated in my post, your "tangibles" are inaccurate. He does not have a poorer record than the previous three managers. You can argue a case if you only use certain statistics, but he is very similar overall to Jose's record, the main difference being Ole scoring more per game (1.8 to 1.6) and conceding more per game (1.1 to 0.9). Generally their goal difference and points per game are very similar, and Ole has a better record in almost every way to Moyes and LVG with the exception of goals conceded per game. If you want the raw statistics I can provide them.

We are not saying if his entire ternure was better or worse (it was clearly worse than Mourinho's) we are talking about how he'll left the team.

So if arguing if he left us better or worse than LVG or Moyes it makes no point since he didn't took over them, he took over Mourinho and from that initial point of view we are worst.

Worst overall last season than Mourinho's full last, worse start, worse squad harmony with all the rumors surfacing about discontent in the squad, worse defense and with worse morale after being totally humiliated at home.against Liverpool.

How can anyone argue we are left in a better state besides potentially, and potentially being an important word here, having better players is beyond me.