Ozil, China, Arsenal, PL, Hypocrisy...

Sky1981

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A group of Uyghurs from Xinjiang set up the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM) some time back. On 11 September 2002, the United Nations classified ETIM as a terror organisation and an associate of Al Qaeda.

ETIM has been active in China for many years, notably in Xinjiang, home of the Uyghurs. They have killed hundreds of people, mostly in Xinjiang.

Then, in 2016, the Chinese government acted strongly on the ETIM members, arresting almost 13,000 of them and putting them in rehabilitation centers. At the same time, the Chinese government took other steps, such as increasing surveillance of Xinjiang in order to stop any further terror strikes by ETIM. Southern Xinjiang is now full of surveillance cameras and road blocks. but there has been no more terror attacks since 2016 and the people there are safe and happy now.

Most people in Southern Xinjiang only have a primary school education plus some religious (Islam) education. As a result of their low level of education, many of them cannot get jobs.

This is a dangerous situation because with their low level of education, little knowledge of Islam and hardly any income, they can easily be misled into joining ETIM.

To overcome this, since 2017, China has made secondary education compulsory (and free) to the youngsters in Southern Xinjiang. In addition to that, young adults are given vocational training so that they have enough skills to secure a job and an income. China even helps them to find a job upon completion of their vocational training.

The US is not happy with what China has done. The US fears China’s economic rise, and will do anything possible to stop China from being the no 1 economy in the world.

The US would like to see Xinjiang in turmoil. The US is home to a Uyghur separatist group. There is even an East Turkestan Government-in-exile in the US, located in Virginia.

The US would be happy if these separatist groups could take over Xinjiang and turn it into an independent country that is under US control. This would enable the US to cut off China’s access to Central Asia and Europe and considerably slow down China’s economic growth.

For this reason, it is not surprising that the US has created all sorts of fake accusations against China.

It is not true that the surveillance system in Xinjiang is aimed against the public.

It is not true that 1 million (now increased to 2 million, it seems) Uyghurs are in concentration camps (or whatever camps).

It is not true that China is harvesting organs from the Uyghurs

It is not true that there are Chinese officers or police or whatever in Uyghur homes.

It is not true that Uyghurs are prevented from praying or fasting.

and there are many more fake accusations.

Believing the fake US accusations, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation , with 56 Islamic member countries, wrote a very negative report of China’s human rights actions against the Muslim Uyghurs, in December 2018. Then, in March 2019, after a visit to Xinjiang, they wrote the following:

“The Council welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat’s delegation upon invitation from the People’s Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People’s Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation and the People’s Republic of China.”

(Read item 20 in the following report:

https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/... )

In October this year, 23 countries, made up of the US, the 14 eyes countries (who would always agree with the US), some NATO countries and a few other friends of the US, none of which are Muslim countries, wrote to the United Nations supposedly reporting China’s poor human rights practices in Xinjiang.

The next day, a group of 54 countries made the following statement to the United Nations:

Mr. President,

I have the honor to make the following joint statement on behalf of 54 countries including Pakistan, the Russian Federation, Egypt, Bolivia, Democratic Republic of the Congo, and Serbia.

We reiterate that the work of Human Rights in the United Nations should be conducted in an objective, transparent, non-selective, constructive, non-confrontational and non-politicized manner. We express our firm opposition to relevant countries' practice of politicizing human rights issues, by naming and shaming, and publicly exerting pressures on other countries.

We commend China's remarkable achievements in the field of human rights by adhering to the people-centered development philosophy and protecting and promoting human rights through development. We also appreciate China's contributions to the international human rights cause.

We take note that terrorism, separatism and religious extremism has caused enormous damage to people of all ethnic groups in Xinjiang, which has seriously infringed upon human rights, including right to life, health and development. Faced with the grave challenge of terrorism and extremism, China has undertaken a series of counter-terrorism and deradicalization measures in Xinjiang, including setting up vocational education and training centers. Now safety and security has returned to Xinjiang and the fundamental human rights of people of all ethnic groups there are safeguarded. The past three consecutive years has seen not a single terrorist attack in Xinjiang and people there enjoy a stronger sense of happiness, fulfillment and security. We note with appreciation that human rights are respected and protected in China in the process of counter-terrorism and deradicalization.

We appreciate China's commitment to openness and transparency. China has invited a number of diplomats, international organizations officials and journalist to Xinjiang to witness the progress of the human rights cause and the outcomes of counter-terrorism and deradicalization there. What they saw and heard in Xinjiang completely contradicted what was reported in the media. We call on relevant countries to refrain from employing unfounded charges against China based on unconfirmed information before they visit Xinjiang. We urge the OHCHR, Treaty Bodies and relevant Special Procedures mandate holders to conduct their work in an objective and impartial manner according to their mandate and with true and genuinely credible information, and value the communication with member states.

Thank you, Mr. President.


(see Joint Statement on Xinjiang at Third Committee Made by Belarus on Behalf of 54 Countries )

If you would like to know more about what has happened in Xinjiang, please spend 50 minutes to view the video in the following web page:

Fighting terrorism in Xinjiang

https://www.quora.com/What-s-happening-with-the-Uyghur-population-in-China
 

Kostov

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So if you made a moany post about an oppo player diving or cheating we can all disregard it because you haven't made a similar post anytime one of your team's players cheats?
Yes you can, and that is a regular thing with football fans, we condemn opposition fans while stay silent about ours (most often than not). This however is a much more serious thing that football, it does need attention but coming from someone like Ozil who has Erdogan as his godfather is absolutely shocking and paint him as a hypocrite.
 

Snow

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Not that I agree with it at all but the reason he will see this as different is that, rightly or wrongly, he will see the Uighur persecution as being religiously based (which it partly is) and as an ethnic Turk, probably feels extra sympathy for a group that is ethnically linked to him. Whereas the Turk/Kurd issue is not a religious one but one he may see as a local conflict.
It's still Muslims killing another group of Muslims and specifically oppressing said group of Muslims.

Moreover, I know Erdogan is public enemy number one on here and in the West in general these days and I greatly dislike him but I find a lot of the comments....a little off the mark. What 'his buddy' Erdogan is doing with the Kurds is literally no different to what the Turkish army and state have been doing to the Kurds for literally a century now, yet the way some (want to) frame it on here is loony Erdogan and his murderous focus on the Kurds.
Doesn't matter one bit if Erdogan is continuing the oppression and massacre or starting it. The act is still the same and the support is the same.

Back to the original point, unfortunately Arsenal reacted as I imagine every single club would have acted and I think you're right, this will happen more and more in sports. China has too many people and too much economic power for sports teams to ignore them and generally don't take kindly to criticism.
Most likely yes but more people have open their eyes towards them recently.
 

ROFLUTION

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Is it politics though? I thought it was a human rights issue. Could be wrong I'm not fully informed on this...
If the Uighurs had a say in it all, it would be politics. They dont. Just put into camps until they're letting their religion go, else they cant get out of a certain area. Complete disgrace and something you would see in Nazi Germany really. At least someone is speaking up against that sick system. Their social points-system is insane too - if you criticize the government, you can't get on public transport or have wifi, which literally emprisons you and shuts you up. Unbelievable.
 

Tom Cato

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Politics is (and should be) left out of football. Inviting political discussion and taking a stand one way or the other invites a LOT of debate and animosity that we have enough of in the public forum already.

Essentially, sports is one of the few things that all humans can unite around in a fair contest. The focus needs to be on the contest, not the surrounding issues. The world already knows about them so speaking out doesn't change anything.

This issue is so insanely complicated I don't believe one answer exists, but it's my opinion that inviting this debate into the sport of football will run counter productive to the message football already speaks loud and clear, unity.
 

Handré1990

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I get that. Hypocrisy is a bitch and an annoying trait.

Recent involvements in the City cnut fans thread have made me reconsider how hypocrisy should factor into things.
Also worth considering is, as a German of Turkish decent, the fact that him highlighting human rights violations done by Turkey could have a pretty strong signal effect, while in this case, he’s just another celebrity who supports groups he identifies with. Along the lines of Pep speaking out for Catalonia’s right to separate from the Spanish state in the name of democracy, but mumbling an idiotic answer when asked about the citizens of UAE right to democracy.
 

Adnan

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Why is Erdogan attacking the Kurds? One chap I met told me it was due to the Kurds being a part of a terrorist organisation.
 

Thejimc

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What is happening in that area of China is wrong and should be highlighted. But what frustrates me is that the same religion persecute other religions regularly on the sub continent

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....-driving-christians-out-of-middle-east-report

now I agree that ALL religious persecution is wrong. But to believe that it is indicative of purely one group of zealot is wrong. He should consider all facts before commenting.
 

Superden

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The post defending the chinese treatment of the uighurs would be laughable if not downright distasteful. Re educating people to adopt chinese customs and mores by rounding them up in their hundreds of thousands and putting them in modern day concentration camps is genocide.
 

Thejimc

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The post defending the chinese treatment of the uighurs would be laughable if not downright distasteful. Re educating people to adopt chinese customs and mores by rounding them up in their hundreds of thousands and putting them in modern day concentration camps is genocide.
Nobody can defend it because it’s a human rights violation. But to think it is an isolated case. Isolated to one country and one religion that is blind thinking.
 

Thejimc

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As a Liverpool fan I love this forum because of its open mindedness, the rhetoric here is largely based on considered opinion. Always 2 sides to a story. What is happening in China with the institutionalisation and brain washing of Muslims is abhorrent. But to think that similar things do not happen against Christians is naive.
 

Amar__

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It's funny how the entire world is concerned about Ozil's lack of concern about Kurds, etc, and yet the entire world(redcafe included) was more concerned about just 10 or so people dying from terrorism in France, than we all are about thousands of Syrians dying for years, innocent people in america dying from idiots with guns, or any other random example. Aren't we all hypocrites? I am not sure many people are in position to call someone a hypocrite, especially when it focuses away from a point of Ozil's comments.

I would agree with @adexkola here 100%.
 

Champagne Football

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Ozil is a twat. As soon as the ink dried on his phenomenal new Arsenal deal, he pulled an Alexis and put his feet up.

He should focus on being less of a football mercenary than cheaply trying to be the second coming.
 

awop

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Ozil is a twat. As soon as the ink dried on his phenomenal new Arsenal deal, he pulled an Alexis and put his feet up.

He should focus on being less of a football mercenary than cheaply trying to be the second coming.
Well done you, i'm sure he's feeling very humbled now you told him how you feel.
 

Champagne Football

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Well done you, i'm sure he's feeling very humbled now you told him how you feel.
I guess I hit a sore spot talking about the guy, whose face is on the posters plastered all over your bedroom wall. Anyways if you're lucky, we might sell you Luke Shaw next summer and you can replace Ozil's mug with Shaw's on the posters.
 

GlastonSpur

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… China has made secondary education compulsory (and free) to the youngsters in Southern Xinjiang. In addition to that, young adults are given vocational training so that they have enough skills to secure a job and an income. ….

It is not true that 1 million (now increased to 2 million, it seems) Uyghurs are in concentration camps (or whatever camps).
How to Brainwash a Million People
"No escapes, constant surveillance and forced confessions: Panorama reveals how China runs its re-education camps. More than a million people have been locked up. It's one of the biggest mass detentions in modern history. Reporter Richard Bilton uncovers the reality of surveillance and abuse inside hundreds of new detention centres.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000btl7
 

awop

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I guess I hit a sore spot talking about the guy, whose face is on the posters plastered all over your bedroom wall. Anyways if you're lucky, we might sell you Luke Shaw next summer and you can replace Ozil's mug with Shaw's on the posters.
Nah we should be fine with Tierney and Kolasinac for that spot. But back to your argument which, if i recall correctly, was "durh durh Ozil money, Alexis, durh durh, second coming".Can you expand on that ?
@Sky1981 are you chinese or did you just read about the subject ?
 

JazzG

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Is it politics though? I thought it was a human rights issue. Could be wrong I'm not fully informed on this...
It is a human rights issue. Ozil has every right to talk about issues close to his heart however it is best for the club to remain out of this and not get involved in any political or humans rights issues anywhere in the world.

What’s happening out there isn’t right but let’s face it that isn’t the only humans right abuse going on in the world so where do you as a business draw a line and do you then do you talk about all human rights abuses everywhere? Ironically enough Turkey aren’t exactly saints themselves but Ozil seems silent on those issues. For the club it is financial as well, right or wrong but they simply won’t and are not in a position to turn down the money on offer out there.
 

_00_deathscar

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HK has a population of around 7 million. How and why the feck does LeTV pay that much? The HK people must be getting shafted with those prices being passed on to them.

Or am I missing something here..
That’s what I was wondering! I thought maybe not having a really strong local league (neither does Singapore though) maybe plays into it too, as well as licensing for bars/pubs etc but really not sure.

I live here - most people pay about HKD 250-400/month or so for Internet+Cable packages
I don’t have the Premier League one, but do have Champions League and pay HKD 268/month

I have no idea why they paid such an insane amount for it - maybe it was also redistribution rights (via HK) since I don’t see Southeast Asian countries there and they’d make a huge chunk too you’d imagine.
 

Seaman

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Good old Özil. He only cares about Turkey and Muslims. I cant take someone serious who only cares about his own religion and nation, but support or empathy disappears as soon as it is the other way around. In Özil's case, he is basically lying in bed with Erdogan and thus supporting a dictator and murderer heavily
Endogan is a great leader. Don’t fall for western propaganda
 

DoomSlayer

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People are hypocrites and focus on things that concern them more or are associated to them. Nothing new, but it's funny how money can change a political agenda. :lol:
 

In Rainbows

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Anyone here from the US/UK/EU blaming Ozil for Erdogans actions is a hypocrite when it's their governments that gave Erdogan the power to do what he does with the kurds...

And yet that doesn't change anything about the fact that what Erdogan does is wrong. Same for the Chinese and Uighur.
People are only hypocrites if they don't call it out when it pertains to their home country or their own thing that hits close to home. You assumed they didn't. For example, I call out all injustice, albeit elsewhere on the internet and in person. Many people do. This is not about where you come from. I don't know what's so difficult about that. What's injustice is injustice. What's fact is fact.
 

awop

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They should have kept the game on TV and have their commentators trash us all game long :drool:

Demba Ba (yes he is still alive) also thought he should intervene. Bit harsh.
 

Fosu-Mens

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I think the "who is the bad guy" here is somewhat nuanced, as always when media is used as a medium for geopolitics. A good start would be to understand that finding an official news-source that is "neutral" or "objective" in global matters in this day and age is difficult. What might work is to find the two outer opinions on an issue and assume that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

As the Quora answer that @Sky1981 referenced/copied in his post, the backstory behind the new Chinese policy on a more forceful method of integrating the Uyghurs into the Chinese society is not done without a reason (from a Chinese point of view). Given the failings of their "carrot-integration (let's all try to be friends)", it should not surprise anyone that they have started with the "stick-integration (forced cultural assimilation)". Is it right to demand that the people who have lived in this region far longer than the Han-Chinese should adapt to the Chinese? Dependent on the timeframe and who is really occupying who when reflecting on this question, the conclusions are not the same.

Xinjiang was originally called Moghulistan, but was conquered by the Qing dynasty a couple of hundred years ago and given its current name. Around a million people were killed during this war, most of them Uyghurs. Fast-forwarding back into present time, the Chinese are basically doing the same as many western countries did to their indigenous people until the late 70ties. Whether this forced integration is justified or not, depends on your viewpoint and the individual/society belief.
Does the end justify the means? And who decides what is the desired "end"?
Concluding on this is better explained through with Spock and Cpt. Kirk:

Spock says, “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”
Captain Kirk answers, “Or the one.”


If you agree with Spock, then the Chinese are justified in their societal reasoning for forcing the Uyghurs to integrate.
If Kirk is the one that you align with, then the Chinese are not justified.

Regarding their method of integrating the Uyghurs; It is inorganic and the assumed timeframe here is to short. A more natural and organic method would be to find "the golden mean" between their previous and current attempt at integrating the Uyghurs with the aim of letting the Uyghurs keeping their religion and cultural heritage while making them able to function in Chinese society.
 

Superden

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I think the "who is the bad guy" here is somewhat nuanced, as always when media is used as a medium for geopolitics. A good start would be to understand that finding an official news-source that is "neutral" or "objective" in global matters in this day and age is difficult. What might work is to find the two outer opinions on an issue and assume that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

As the Quora answer that @Sky1981 referenced/copied in his post, the backstory behind the new Chinese policy on a more forceful method of integrating the Uyghurs into the Chinese society is not done without a reason (from a Chinese point of view). Given the failings of their "carrot-integration (let's all try to be friends)", it should not surprise anyone that they have started with the "stick-integration (forced cultural assimilation)". Is it right to demand that the people who have lived in this region far longer than the Han-Chinese should adapt to the Chinese? Dependent on the timeframe and who is really occupying who when reflecting on this question, the conclusions are not the same.

Xinjiang was originally called Moghulistan, but was conquered by the Qing dynasty a couple of hundred years ago and given its current name. Around a million people were killed during this war, most of them Uyghurs. Fast-forwarding back into present time, the Chinese are basically doing the same as many western countries did to their indigenous people until the late 70ties. Whether this forced integration is justified or not, depends on your viewpoint and the individual/society belief.
Does the end justify the means? And who decides what is the desired "end"?
Concluding on this is better explained through with Spock and Cpt. Kirk:

Spock says, “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”
Captain Kirk answers, “Or the one.”


If you agree with Spock, then the Chinese are justified in their societal reasoning for forcing the Uyghurs to integrate.
If Kirk is the one that you align with, then the Chinese are not justified.

Regarding their method of integrating the Uyghurs; It is inorganic and the assumed timeframe here is to short. A more natural and organic method would be to find "the golden mean" between their previous and current attempt at integrating the Uyghurs with the aim of letting the Uyghurs keeping their religion and cultural heritage while making them able to function in Chinese society.
In the meantime millions of people are being tortured physically and mentally. Shove that fact up Spocks arse.
 

Red Royal

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Best thing Ozil has done for a while...now needs to be followed by other big players such as Salah, Dembele, Kante and Pogba.
 

Red Royal

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It would have much more impact coming from players like Kane, Lloris, Pulisic, Neuer, Ramos or Hazard (non-Muslim, international captains).
It would indeed.

Unfortunately, so much bad going on in the world and footballers are not real role models any more.

Anyway hope Ozils comments raise some awareness of a situation going on that the media hasnt really focused on and people can make there own judgement.
 

Sky1981

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In the meantime millions of people are being tortured physically and mentally. Shove that fact up Spocks arse.
Millions of people. 21st century concentration camp. That's 1 in 10 ughyurs man abducted from their family. Wonder how nobody there raised an issue.

81 nations have been sending their delegations to inspect the facilities and found no wrong doing. But hey, if the US says its a concentration camp then it must be one. Evil china. Woohoo.

Once the new trade deal is signed, you can count on the news on ughyurs and hongkong to suddenly disappear, just like there's suddenly no news on assad, erdogan, venezuela
 

UweBein

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Özil doing a Kaepernick.
No surprise here. He is championship level and needs other approaches to generate attention. He can‘t do it on the pitch anymore. He is desperate to stay relevant.
 

ROFLUTION

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Millions of people. 21st century concentration camp. That's 1 in 10 ughyurs man abducted from their family. Wonder how nobody there raised an issue.

81 nations have been sending their delegations to inspect the facilities and found no wrong doing.
But hey, if the US says its a concentration camp then it must be one. Evil china. Woohoo.

Once the new trade deal is signed, you can count on the news on ughyurs and hongkong to suddenly disappear, just like there's suddenly no news on assad, erdogan, venezuela
Can you please document this / drop a link to where you have this from? I'm genuinely interested, and have read nothing of this at all on the matter. Can't google my way to it neither. Doesn't seem like it's only the US media being sceptical neither.

At the UN, the following countries have condemned the camp: Albania, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, United Kingdom, and United States. Link here from human rights watch. Not like nobody raises an issue really.

Edit: I know see the "documentation" of the 54 countries is from countries of the likes of Pakistan, the Russian Federation, Egypt, Bolivia, Democratic Republic of the Congo, and Serbia. Not exactly great countries in setting an example on human rights, none of them are they?
 
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Josep Dowling

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People should be allowed to criticise a country on human rights issues. What’s more pathetic is the Chinese not showing the game because of his comments.
 

diarm

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I love it when people from countries who do evil things try to argue that they haven't done evil things. Whether it's China, Saudi, the US or anywhere else - it's inarguable but guys like @Sky1981 are still on here trying to argue that white is black and the sky isn't blue.

China are bullies and little else, and I'll say that as someone who's lived in Asia and spent a lot of time in China.

To pull todays match from the broadcast is the actions of a bully saying "don't look into what I'm doing or I'll hurt you". If they had nothing to hide, they wouldn't pull the match, simple as.