@Moby what type of player was Tarantini? Don’t know much about him
P&G Draft- R1: harms vs Moby
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
I've gone for harms. I don't like Henry on the left at the best of times but without a proper attacking left-back he will be stuck further away from the goal than he would be at his best. Consequently, I don't see Moby having sufficient attacking coherence to regularly breakdown harms's deep defence. On the other hand I can see harms scoring on the break with his clear threats outwide with the less than supreme CBs in the air (I do rate Thiago Silva more than most but Law and Pele is a tough gig for him and Hansen).
I think it would end up 2-1 harms.
I think it would end up 2-1 harms.
Hoped for a more active discussion tbf
Luka Modric is the definition of attacking coherence. Croatia was one of the few teams in the last world cup which was very good in possession and had success with attacks from open play, and a lot of that was down to Modric. Pretty much all the other teams mostly relied on goals from set pieces / penalties etc.
In my head, I see this game playing out like the 2009 CL final. One sides dominates the game and the other defends most of the time. I think Effenberg would absolutely hate running after the ball when there are about a few thousand passes between Modric, Kroos, Zito and the forwards. I believe he is much more suited to possession football, where others do the dirty work for him and give him the ball in the centre of the park.
I also don't think harms' defense is good enough to withstand a constant onslaught from players like Ronaldo and Figo running at them. It is a good defence, but not a great one (in this all-time context) and especially Figo v Evra 1v1 could end badly.
Moby's defense could also be better, but since it will be less frequently exposed to attacks from the opponent, I trust them more to survive the game.
There will be goals for sure, something like 1-3 or 2-3, in my opinion.
Did Madrid midfield of Kroos and Modric ever dominated like that Barca one? Let alone against the midfielders of the class of Lerby and Effenberg.
Different midfields tho. Real’s more counter attacking one, compared to the possession based Barca.
This isn't the same midfield, there's Zito who has replaced Casemiro, a massive upgrade in itself. What it is has is the best CM post Xavi and one who has been the heartbeat of a powerhouse team that has won 4 CLs and showed the kind of European dominance that hasn't been seen since the time De Stefano took Madrid to 5 wins in a row. Zito as the ball winner/possession recycler, who is also a 2x WC winner while being the absolute force in midfield during those performances adds a tremendous layer of quality, balance, leadership and big game domination.
I'd like to see you come up with similar accomplished feats by the midfielders you are sporting here, as much as I agree to both of them being quality, there isn't a hope of you getting a stronghold in midfield here given the three names, and their performances at the highest level.
Let's keep the anecdotes relevant to the game.
I know, and my point is that Modric and Kroos don't play that way, not that they're significantly worse (they're not at the level of that Barca though, even though they're brilliant). They won't suffocate my team by keeping possession, Effenberg and Lerby will get lots of chances as well
Love both teams but Gary Neville is a liability, and to a certain extent so is Vidic.
Will be voting against them
Will be voting against them
Even if we assume that they do, they cannot rival Modric and even Kroos in terms or creativity, efficient usage of the ball, absolute immunity versus the press and the of course the pin point accuracy picking out the runs of the attackers.
At the end of the day it is a workman like midfield, especially in terms of creativity. Effenberg has a good passing range but that doesn't automatically translate into the metronomic ability of absolutely controlling the game something that Modric has been the master of.
It's not like they are going to surrender the possession here, just because they won't go full tiki taka doesn't mean they will forget just how elite they are at ball retention - again a level above your midfield in that regard - and have always had phases in games where they circulate the ball around the park with ease. If you are assuming that we would park the bus Mourinho style and let your players free reign of the midfield, you can forget about it. The precise reason for having a player like Modric whose footballing IQ is top notch is to delegate the task of controlling the tempo of the game to him and he isn't going to be stopped from doing that here.
Not to forget, all of Kroos, Figo, Henry and Ronaldo are masters of technique, first touch, one touch passing and that entire unit is going to contribute when it comes to using the ball. Adding to that, the fluidity and versatility of the front three will make it impossible to be marked. Both Henry and Ronaldo are capable of playing all across the line and have done that their entire careers. With Figo a bigger part of the creative unit while also isolating Evra, who for all his attacking skill isn't the greatest defensive fullback and facing an all time great winger here, and getting past him on a few occasions.
The 1v1 battles the likes of Neville, Evra and Vidic are going to face is rarely going to end in their favour. A really ill suited backline given what they are facing.
Effenberg was the best player of the Bayern side that reached 2 finals and won 1 without the guy named Ronaldo. He was voted UEFA Club Footballer of the Year as well.
Modric is the midfielder on the pitch but my midfielders are not worse than your lot. Will reply later in detail, I'm on the phone now
As you wish, although I don't know how they are (Neville is elevated by his partnership with Beckham, if not for him, I wouldn't have picked him) and the likes of Tarantini and Silva are not. We've won the treble with Neville and Beckham on the right and Vidic was one of the best players in arguably the best United side ever
This is funny, because for most of the last 5 odd years when Madrid have dominated Europe, it is their midfield that has been credited the most.
As for having Cristiano at their disposal, indeed they will miss him here and will have to make do with other goal scorers like Luis Ronaldo and Thierry Henry.
In a nutshell, the powerhouse duo that is the core of that team has been retained, with Casemiro replaced by a 2x World Cup winning who by most viewers and fans would be rated ahead of either of your CMs and they have been provided not one but two all time elite goalscorers, complete in every regard.
Expect their performances to elevate even further.
I agree to a great extent that familiarity breeds contempt. G. Neville is greatly over rated and was never really missed, easily covered for by the likes of Danny Mills
And anyone who has watched that treble season will tell you that it was not won at the back of our defensive prowess.
Here are our CL results that season:
Group Stage: 3-3, 1-1 and 5-0 at OT, 3-3, 2-2 and 2-6 away to Barca, Bayern and Brondby, respectively. 11 goals conceded in 6 games.
QF: 2-0 and 1-1 vs Inter
SF: 1-1 and 3-2 vs Juve (conceded twice in first few minutes vs Juve)
Final: 2-1 vs Bayern.
Grand total of two clean sheets in 11 games, one of them being vs Brondby at home.
Funnily enough, your setup is just as gung ho here, and is just as likely to get exposed. There really is less than an outlandish chance of that defense coming out with their heads held high out of this game.
This is really unfair.. Vidic and Neville were part of great backlines of United.. Don’t think Henry ever made a mug of Neville when playing for Arsenal.. May have scored a few goals but Neville for the most part held his own against him
The Vidic narrative that he can’t play against fast paced attackers is again grossly overblown here.. Couple of games against Torres and Eto’o shouldn’t be dictating a whole career of great defending
As a unit I would argue Harms has a better central defense than Moby. Really like Hansen but Vasovic is great too.
Can't really add much that isn't covered by you guys.
I like both teams and both are brimming with talent and favorite players. Usually I always like yours and Moby's set ups so it's a pity that you guys meet so early as I wanted to see how your teams would pan out.
If I have to nitpick:
On Moby's team I agree with the Tarantini criticism and would've liked more attacking LB on the side to overlap Henry and allow him to cut inside. Don't really rate either Hansen or Thiago Silva and both Pele and Law will have much joy against that CB pair. That front 6 is beautifully done tho and Benarrivo is a good fit for Rensenbrink.
As for your team I can see Henry having joy against Neville when he goes wide. I remember him being usually on the scoresheet every time we faced them with Neville either at RB or there was one game covering inside.
Fenomeno vs Vidic is also a bit of a bad fit, the former would most likely tie him into knots.
Don't think Moby would dominate the middle of the park that much tho, as without the ball Pele is really a midfielder and your formation would shape into 4-2-3-1.
It's a tight game that would end up as a classic with 4-5 goals in it, but to be fair have absolutely no idea who to vote for currently.
@Indnyc Neville was just lucky to be around, and being part of the class of 92 and being a hard worker. Even Shaun Goater made a mug of him. And he never really had to face Henry one on one. If he did I won't bet on him.
As for Vidic I was never really comfortable with him on the team for some reason. I wouldn't say I am being rational though. He was prone to being rash. I guess it is just that i don't like defenders having to tackle to retrieve a situation, but that's just me. You can imagine how I would rate a John Terry or a Phil Jones
As for Vidic I was never really comfortable with him on the team for some reason. I wouldn't say I am being rational though. He was prone to being rash. I guess it is just that i don't like defenders having to tackle to retrieve a situation, but that's just me. You can imagine how I would rate a John Terry or a Phil Jones
Well, Effenberg and lerby never had anyone like Pele on their side, which would've boosted their legacy as well.
As for Zito being better than my midfielders... yeah. Never saw anyone rating him that high until you today. When I'll be at home I'd take a look at those lists to prove you wrong
https://www.transfermarkt.com/thierry-henry/bilanzdetails/spieler/3207/gegner/985/sort/unentschieden.desc
This is Henry's record against United when Neville was largely our rightback and occasionally played center back. 9 goals in 23 games. I am not saying Henry won't trouble him but Neville was a good defender(not great) but certainly capable enough to hold his own here
Fair enough if you don't like that style of defender but there is a reason Terry (even though he is hated here) and Vidic have gone on to have successful careers
Modric still wouldn't solve the current Utd's attacking mess and lack of right winger or attacking full backs. Croatia's front three (despite being of significantly worse quality than Moby's front 3) make more sense than Moby's. Henry is out of place especially without an attacking left-back. His attacks will become rather one sided and become easier to defend. Put Nedved left (same price as Henry IIRC) and Juan Pablo Sorin (I think unpicked at 15m) the attack would be all the better for it and would unpick harms' defence more often and would probably win the game.
harms raises you
http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-100-greatest-defensive-midfielders-of-all-time.1392586/page-5
Effenberg at 27
Zito at 35
I really see the game panning out completely different to that.
As repeated many times before, the attack has three players who are absolutely comfortable on playing all across the line. The Henry criticism would make sense if there was a static no. 9 in there, but Ronaldo literally throughout his peak attacked the opposition from all possible channels, there are countless moments of him taking Nesta, Cannavaro and dragging them to the touchline. Similarly, Henry, in that counter attacking Arsenal side had the absolute freedom to roam ahead of goal. You can play any single video of his goals and there will be goals from the left, centre and right. He's going to do the exact same thing here except with greater partners.
I wouldn't swap for Nedved in this setup in a million years. Nedved cannot come close to the goal threat he provides, which in addition to that of Ronaldo's is an absolutely unstoppable proposition. That was one of the primary reasons of picking him, as I didn't want the entire goal scoring workload to fall on Ronaldo and he himself has always worked well with other goalscorers. With Figo more of a creative presence on the other side, I was always going to pick a goalscorer for this flank. Having another hard working creative player when I already have that midfield as well as Figo for the creativity makes no sense to me and would completely isolate Ronaldo.
There is nothing stopping Ronaldo and Henry to form a similar partnership as Ronaldo did with Rivaldo for example. Two exemplary individual talents who can break up a wall by themselves and be as selfless as required for the other to shine. Henry is one of the all time assist leaders in the Premier League. He can and will facilitate Ronaldo apart from tying Neville up in knots himself.
Pretty sure he can, and should, do his own research? Not really fair on me to be replying to two opponents?
I didn't bring the lists up anyway, they make little sense without context. He did, and it was easy to shut him up with the very first result.
You could only solve that by adding a more attacking left back really. Henry/Fenomeno is very dynamic duo with lots of goals between them. Would work pretty well IMO, especially when Henry attacks the space left by Ronaldo when the latter goes into channels.
Neved/Figo would be a great wing pair, but IMO would suite more classic CF rather than Ronaldo. A provider and wide creative outlet in Figo, complete attacker in Ronaldo and goalscoring wide forward nominally starting from the left is great trio on all accounts.
I know what you mean about Effenberg but I don’t see Pele being the type of 10 that would hinder that part of the German’s game. Can see peak Pele facilitating any forward forays really well. As for Effenberg, late 90s Bayern version was more of a typical all round CM, and fairly similar and complementary to Lerby IMO. Looks well balanced to me.
It was a joke. Calm down.
When you're making a controversial point everyone can challenge you.By the way, I know that @Balu don't like when we refer to him as an all-german authority but let's face it, he is
(it's from 2017, so it's possible although not likely that he changed his mind)
(it's from 2017, so it's possible although not likely that he changed his mind)
Interesting game. Classic nuanced '4-4-2' vs a more straight-forward 4-3-3.
On the midfield battle, I'm not quite buying the narrative. It's a nice midfield trio for Moby and I definitely expect them to have the upper hand in the possession stakes (as too does harms as per his tactical approach), but do see them facing significant resistance here. Both Lerby and Effenberg seem to be getting underrated here, esp the former who has held his own against some great midfields in his era - against the French Carre Magique in the 1984 Euros for instance.
Effenberg too was a proper midfield general although he did lack dynamism and wasn't your archetypal box to box midfielder, however the deeper set-up utilised by harms suits him fine with a dynamic midfielder in Lerby beside him imo. As mentioned earlier, it's clearly a more nuanced 4-4-2, with Beckham playing a Zagallo-lite role, which has curiously gone under the radar here, and the man was one of the most industrious side midfielders ever and could definitely put a shift in. And the way I see it, I can see Law being his usual buzzing self off the ball, contributing to the defensive side of things whilst Pele and Rensenbrink offer great out balls on the counter with some great long-range passers in Effenberg and Beckham (with Lerby more than capable of delivering a decent long ball too).
That being said there's more than enough creativity and incisiveness in Moby's midfield trio to potentially gain the upper hand, esp with their slick passing complementing the movement and trickery of the forward trio. It's a mighty fine cast with the right blend of individualism and neat inter-play and fluidity that Henry and Figo are capable of, which only enhances his edge in terms of possession and creativity. Getting Zito in was a masterful move as he was a canny operator who will dovetail well with Modric-Kroos. Moreover I can see R9 and the forward trio as a whole definitely causing harms defense issues if and when they manage to bypass his midfield's low block. Likewise for hams, with Pele and Law, I just can't see anyone stopping Beckham here which is one of the best routes to goal in this match-up. Tarantini was more of a maverick ball-playing LB who would struggle to get to grips with Beckham's dynamism and without much help from the midfield too in this instance (would have played Modric as the LCM perhaps).
Ultimately, its Moby's side seeing the greater share of the ball with some tasty and deadly forwards to capitalise on the potential advantage, despite facing significant resistance from harm's coherent tactical plan. Or harms hitting Moby on the break with none other than Pele or Law to capitalise on it, with Beckham playing a key role here. On the fence here as it stands but will wait to hear more from the managers.
@harms - Would like more clarification on your off-the ball phase strategy.
@Moby - More on how you'd get past harms low midfield block and dealing with the threat of Beckham.
On the midfield battle, I'm not quite buying the narrative. It's a nice midfield trio for Moby and I definitely expect them to have the upper hand in the possession stakes (as too does harms as per his tactical approach), but do see them facing significant resistance here. Both Lerby and Effenberg seem to be getting underrated here, esp the former who has held his own against some great midfields in his era - against the French Carre Magique in the 1984 Euros for instance.
Effenberg too was a proper midfield general although he did lack dynamism and wasn't your archetypal box to box midfielder, however the deeper set-up utilised by harms suits him fine with a dynamic midfielder in Lerby beside him imo. As mentioned earlier, it's clearly a more nuanced 4-4-2, with Beckham playing a Zagallo-lite role, which has curiously gone under the radar here, and the man was one of the most industrious side midfielders ever and could definitely put a shift in. And the way I see it, I can see Law being his usual buzzing self off the ball, contributing to the defensive side of things whilst Pele and Rensenbrink offer great out balls on the counter with some great long-range passers in Effenberg and Beckham (with Lerby more than capable of delivering a decent long ball too).
That being said there's more than enough creativity and incisiveness in Moby's midfield trio to potentially gain the upper hand, esp with their slick passing complementing the movement and trickery of the forward trio. It's a mighty fine cast with the right blend of individualism and neat inter-play and fluidity that Henry and Figo are capable of, which only enhances his edge in terms of possession and creativity. Getting Zito in was a masterful move as he was a canny operator who will dovetail well with Modric-Kroos. Moreover I can see R9 and the forward trio as a whole definitely causing harms defense issues if and when they manage to bypass his midfield's low block. Likewise for hams, with Pele and Law, I just can't see anyone stopping Beckham here which is one of the best routes to goal in this match-up. Tarantini was more of a maverick ball-playing LB who would struggle to get to grips with Beckham's dynamism and without much help from the midfield too in this instance (would have played Modric as the LCM perhaps).
Ultimately, its Moby's side seeing the greater share of the ball with some tasty and deadly forwards to capitalise on the potential advantage, despite facing significant resistance from harm's coherent tactical plan. Or harms hitting Moby on the break with none other than Pele or Law to capitalise on it, with Beckham playing a key role here. On the fence here as it stands but will wait to hear more from the managers.
@harms - Would like more clarification on your off-the ball phase strategy.
@Moby - More on how you'd get past harms low midfield block and dealing with the threat of Beckham.
This attacking left back with an inverted forward thing is really exagarated in drafts recently, be it Baggio or Henry.
Henry at Barcelona played with Abidal behind who was just about decent going forward.
Tarantini infact is very very similar to Abidal. Tarantini was never a master of qny trade but failr decent at everything. He was decent as a left back, could play a LCB, often covred for the libero (Pasarella) and was decent going forward. He was not a purely defensive player for starters. And his credentials constantly remind me of Abidal who played all those roles for Barca. Not sure why Tarantini Henry is very different from Abidal Henry.
Sure I would prefer Brehme there too but that doesnt mean Tarantini is a disaster.
Henry at Barcelona played with Abidal behind who was just about decent going forward.
Tarantini infact is very very similar to Abidal. Tarantini was never a master of qny trade but failr decent at everything. He was decent as a left back, could play a LCB, often covred for the libero (Pasarella) and was decent going forward. He was not a purely defensive player for starters. And his credentials constantly remind me of Abidal who played all those roles for Barca. Not sure why Tarantini Henry is very different from Abidal Henry.
Sure I would prefer Brehme there too but that doesnt mean Tarantini is a disaster.
I was originally going to suggest Ronaldinho as a replacement for Henry but remembered he was a lot more expensive. I understand wanting two goalscorers in the side, Stoichkov I think was a similar price to Henry.
Henry played with a mobile CF at Barca with Eto'o and IIRC in an interview complained even then about being stuck out wide on the left - that Barca side was hardly set up like a Big Sam side. All that said the biggest problem is Tarantini, he really needs an attacking left-back here to make the front three fully click.
As an aside- I really rate Henry but am fed up on him being shunted outwide.
Well that is one part of it. The other being containing Modric-Kroos. I think he would be playing his deep role here spraying passes and trying to win tackles if the middle doesnt have to be very open. Lets just say its not my favorite version of him based on what I have watched. His forward runs and passes on the run were a thing of beauty.
Jokes are fine, but finding actual links is the job of the manager.
What's controversial? It's shocking coming from a regular drafter when we have had his style of play, influence in the biggest of games, ability in both defense and on the ball extremely well documented in here. There is literally nothing controversial in rating a two time WC winning midfield general who was responsible for doing tons of heavylifting in midfield allowing those Brazil teams to play at their offensive best, ahead of the likes of Lerby who besides cult following never achieved those heights in their careers, in terms of trophies or their importance to some of the most memorable sides in the history of the game.
And the tagging voter games begin. Everything's fair, eh?
No doubt Bastian is easily on a tier above to those two, but if you are going to downplay a WC and 4x CL winner while being right at the heartbeat of those teams then you would need something stronger than that. Not that he is there by himself, has Luka Modric, Luis Figo and Zito all very much part of the midfield gig here. Like Phhysio pointed out above, I could have easily picked older names, but it is far beyond the point when both Modric and Kroos have cemented a place in this company and would definitely get the job done here, as they always have in the last 5 years. Especially against typical 90s all action midfielders who rely tremendously on their stamina, pressing and physicality, something that rarely ever effects this duo.
What you dearly miss in there is someone a lot calmer, interceptive and one who could solidify that base, would be effective against two such elite creative passers. Having two gung-ho midfielders who commit into early challenges could easily be left chasing shadows by the likes of Modric who is an absolute master of negating the press and leaving bodies behind with his control, touch and dribbling.
Barca Henry hit nowhere near the heights of Arsenal Henry - this is precisely my point.
Arsenal Henry hardly played in the Barca Henry position. If he did, he would have been devastating. I think that much leeway should be allowed in drafts.
It was far from the peak Henry though. As I said, if it's Barca's Henry, I have no problems with his role. But if you say that it's a peak version, he is just shoehorned on the flank without any thought about it (say, without a certain Marcelo behind him)
Stoichkov is the better alternative than Nedved and Dinho, from all mentioned. Still Henry would do very good job there as he'll put his pace to a use.
Not sure where you'd have the best of Henry to be honest. For France he started some games as a CF and wasn't at his best, equally for Barca he wasn't at his best, but also was past his prime.
Probably as an inside left second striker type is his best position nominally, and really depends on the setup. With that being said, Ronaldo is really a great facilitator for his game. Especially with Figo on the other side as a pure creator and stretching the defence.
The only thing that is missing is attacking full back and that attack is full of flair and coherence.
He scored 19 goals in his first season and 26 in his next season.. Not bad numbers to be fair