Safe is good as long as that 10 yard pass is to someone who can start an attack.
Pass completion % for CMs
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
Just pointing out how Caf has that knack of dismissing players. Player's can't improve in their eyes.
The Carrick case thought me many things, such as being patient towards a player.
I would imagine average distance of successful passes would be good. It'll immediately tell you what kind of passes they're doing. Not sure if that's even available though.
I wasn't on the forum in 06/07, but Carrick was definitely progressive that first season with scholes, and was an eye opener for me in terms of not needing a traditional midfield enforcer to make things work, after years Keane.
There were one or two subsequent seasons where he could be rightly accused of being too safe and passive though.
Pass completion means absolutely nothing.
If you play long, direct or Counter attacking football it really is a useless metric.
Not to mention you could pass 5 yards sideways or backwards and have a 96% completion rate. But at the end of 90 minutes you created 0 chances, took 0 shots and had 0 dribbles. All that says is that player X didn’t contribute to the team.
This is the danger of stats. What are you judging a player on? The ability to complete a pass should come as naturally to a player as speaking, even for the technically limited player.
If you play long, direct or Counter attacking football it really is a useless metric.
Not to mention you could pass 5 yards sideways or backwards and have a 96% completion rate. But at the end of 90 minutes you created 0 chances, took 0 shots and had 0 dribbles. All that says is that player X didn’t contribute to the team.
This is the danger of stats. What are you judging a player on? The ability to complete a pass should come as naturally to a player as speaking, even for the technically limited player.
To be fair to him, he simply isn't that type of player and likely never will be. I also don't think we should expect a player, who should be a squad player, to be as good as the very best players in that position. The bigger issue is why he is starting in the first place and why we aren't addressing that.
Its not only the passing. You can easily see if a player is a really good ball players and really high all basic ball skills. Include self confidence. Believe that you are really good with the ball.
First you know where you have your teammates before you receive the ball = football orientation. If its effective and right to play a touch pass.
Then the first touch and receiving the ball. Those two things are important if you want to be a really good passer and football player.
And it has to practise as kids and as earlier as better. If you dont have it as a gift.
In others words. The passes does relate to others factors like first touch, orientation = not only your teammates, but your opponents players. To decide your direction when you receive the ball and self confidence. Some are world class on this, some are next best on this and some are average on this. You can easily see it. And it start as a kid. Play a lot a lot of football. On the street with your friends too. Not under clubs arrangement. It just show your passion and how much you love football. And it will pay you back. Practise and practise wherever. On the street or whatever.
Everything we see now. Are just result of how much effort each one have put on it. Like a paint. Not only observing the picture. But all the work and time behind a masterpiece of art.
First you know where you have your teammates before you receive the ball = football orientation. If its effective and right to play a touch pass.
Then the first touch and receiving the ball. Those two things are important if you want to be a really good passer and football player.
And it has to practise as kids and as earlier as better. If you dont have it as a gift.
In others words. The passes does relate to others factors like first touch, orientation = not only your teammates, but your opponents players. To decide your direction when you receive the ball and self confidence. Some are world class on this, some are next best on this and some are average on this. You can easily see it. And it start as a kid. Play a lot a lot of football. On the street with your friends too. Not under clubs arrangement. It just show your passion and how much you love football. And it will pay you back. Practise and practise wherever. On the street or whatever.
Everything we see now. Are just result of how much effort each one have put on it. Like a paint. Not only observing the picture. But all the work and time behind a masterpiece of art.
Don’t forget, that’s 47th playing for a team that typically has the majority of possession and plays most matches against opposition they should easily dominate.
This is a huge issue and always makes me wonder why Fred is much more likely to be singled out for criticism. He makes one or two bad mistakes each game and gets dogs abuse as a result. Do you know how to avoid criticism like that? Don’t touch the ball!
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On this forum, players improve when they are injured. This has been a running theme for over a decade now. We soundly beat Leeds with him and struggled in next few without him, so he was pined as a saviour. Truth is, he’s very average to be playing 40-50 games a season for us, which he does.
Biggest issue is he hides too much on the pitch, 19 passes in 82 mins of football at this level is unacceptable. Especially, when you factor he had one tackle and zero interceptions. Baffling when Ole said those two broke up the play vs Villa. They didn’t.
Fred tries more stuff on the field, hence makes more mistake which are easier to recall after 90 mins. Neither are good enough for us, but they bring passion, energy and desire which the manager wants so not much we can do.
As a pairing they leave a lot to be desired but there’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that two Freds in central midfield would make us a hell of a lot harder to beat than the McFred combo.
Absolutely, but the bar is pretty low. This is comfortably our worst midfield pairing since days of Kleberson-Djemba x2
Not sure, what our options are. Van de Beek went from being one of the better midfielders in Europe to being an even less potent Cleverley in our colours. But then, Sancho also seems to be channelling Young spirit under Moyes by getting the ball and passing it sideways to CM. There’s something seriously wrong that so many players seem to forget to do basics here
Shows what a sorry state of affairs it is when there's an argument to be made that two Fred's is our best midfield
It's as tough one to call for me. Fred definitely tries to do more and make things happen, but he just doesn't have the ability. It's almost been embarrassing watching him at times this season, the way he gets 'rag-dolled' around by opponents. I have seen at least three/four duels this season where the opponent has brushed him aside like someone swatting a fly. It's not a good look at all.
I genuinely think that if you offered Fred to other PL teams, you would be well into the bottom half before a team would take him and start him. Not because he is especially awful, necessarily, (he starts for Brazil at times) but because I just don't think he suits this league physically
1. He was expensive
2. Not an academy product
The people saying Fred are worse than McTomminay are blinkered
He sure loves to hide in many of his games, which is a huge issue for us.
I literally saw him follow an opposition midfielder whilst we had the ball.
Just comparison to the rest of our midfield: Fred - 79th; Pogba (when in midfield) 77th; Matic 96th. McTominay = 47th.
If you want to go one further, the 'progressive passes' (which FbRef defines as any passes outside of our own half that either go into the penalty box or go further than 10 yards) Matic = 93rd; Pogba = 85th; Fred = 80th; McTominay = 64th.
So he's not only just not passing enough, he's not particularly insightful at all when he does play it. Also, a Grandpa Nem replacement is a necessity. Nobody in the side can do what he does.
Grandpa Nem?
Matic.
Fred is better at every single thing in a football pitch than McTominay except shooting and scoring (well in the air too). I think they are okayish together and certainly our best pairing, however, we don't seem to be a unit in defense, midfield, or attack which makes them look worse IMO. They have so much space to cover, and that's why Ole plays them because Fred and McTominay are our best midfield in covering space, tackling, duels, and so on. We saw what happened when Fred played with Pogba, or when Matic plays in a high-intensity game - we are even worse then.
Yesterday, yes, but over an entire season he's not nearly as progressive or adventurous as people would have you believe.
Not sure how comparable these stats are tbh. Different teams with different philosophies. It's actually impressive Rice is as close to Fred/McTominay when you consider that West Ham aren't as good as Utd are. We have more of the ball and tend to have higher possession stats than West Ham would allowing for more passes both safe and progressive.
In addition, McTominay has fewer shot creating actions than Fred, fewer defensive actions than Fred, fewer touches, fewer carries (though admittedly higher progressive distance), fewer dribbles with a lower success rate than Fred. Over the last two seasons they were dispossessed with a similar frequency; McTominay had more miscontrols overall.
All stats per 90 minutes. It's really, really hard to see from stats what is it that McTominay actually does well. It's also hard to see it on the pitch though.