It's crazy, right? You obviously have to factor in that we are a better team than West Ham, therefore we'll have more of the ball that them, and subsequently McTominay will have more opportunity to play those balls over the duration of 90 minutes. That's the thing with stats. Variables and contextual situations differ from team to team, playing style to playing style and most importantly relative player quality you're playing with.
Pass completion % for CMs
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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Do we average more possession than West Ham? If anything their midfield would have more of the ball than us since we are in the final 3rd for a lot longer.
I watched Rice last night and although he looked good and had an impressive game, he doesn’t really pass much more than 10 yards very safe..
I mean you just needed to watch the game to understand how bad Fred and Matic's passing was on Sunday, the stats bear that out. What are Fred's stats for the whole of last season, my perception with him is that he's a very average passer but would guess he's around 85% consistently but he does tend to have very bad games (remember Leicester away in the cup last year) as well as losing possession in really dangerous areas. All-in-all points to an ok midfielder but ultimately someone who isn't at the level needed, which i think most of us understand.
If you look literally a few posts back, you'll see that stat posted repeatedly. It's 88,2%. Which is very good, and well above average. 82 percentile, to be exact.
Relatively speaking, he was better with long passes than short ones. 73 percentile for short passes, 83 percentile for medium passes, 89 percentile for long passes.
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To be fair to Fred he was something like 88% for the last season. Typically he's been high 80s for United. That's not spectacularly good like the over 90% players who are a rarity, but it is still within a good percentile.
You are going to get games where it's not so good, perhaps the opposition press well. Then you'll get a home game against fodder that let you have the ball and 90% is easily achievable.
Fred and McTominay are more reliable passers then people like to claim. You would think they are Championship cloggers the way people carry on but statistically they are comparable to many players that we are linked with. They're not top bracket and there is very much room to improve on it, especially in terms of range, ability to take the ball etc, but the passing issue is more a shade of grey than something that's categorically black or white. Some people just spout pure nonsense that can't be evidenced based off bad moments or bad results.
You are going to get games where it's not so good, perhaps the opposition press well. Then you'll get a home game against fodder that let you have the ball and 90% is easily achievable.
Fred and McTominay are more reliable passers then people like to claim. You would think they are Championship cloggers the way people carry on but statistically they are comparable to many players that we are linked with. They're not top bracket and there is very much room to improve on it, especially in terms of range, ability to take the ball etc, but the passing issue is more a shade of grey than something that's categorically black or white. Some people just spout pure nonsense that can't be evidenced based off bad moments or bad results.
In general, I think you need to be VERY careful about making any kind of judgement about a players' ability (or lack of) based solely on ANY statistic.
What I would say, in response to a few of the posts above, is that you also need to be very careful comparing players from different teams, or who play different roles.
For example, I see posts comparing Declan Rice with Scott McTominay and Fred. Well, I would expect Fred and McTominay to have better and more progressive passing stats, because they play in a team likely to dominate the ball. If you look at Rice's stats for West Ham, compared to his stats playing for England over the Summer, they look significantly better when he plays for England - unsurprising because England were technically a better team than many of the opponents they faced and had most of the ball.
It doesn't take much to understand that this is obvious really. I played a Sunday League game two weeks ago, we won 6-1 and I barely recall giving the ball away (I play CM). Two weeks later, we play top of the league with a depleted side (too many lads down the pub Saturday night!) and we get given the run-around and tonked 7-1. I spent most of the game running, tackling, covering and filling gaps and when we did get the ball, there are barely any options to make a forward pass because we're being penned in. So of course, my percentage passes forwards and my total passes completed is going to be significantly worse than the previous game. Doesn't matter the level, the same is true for any CM depending on whether their team is dominating the ball or largely playing without it. Put Rice in the United/Chelsea/City team and I virtually guarantee he would massively outperform Fred and probably McTominay too.
What I would say, in response to a few of the posts above, is that you also need to be very careful comparing players from different teams, or who play different roles.
For example, I see posts comparing Declan Rice with Scott McTominay and Fred. Well, I would expect Fred and McTominay to have better and more progressive passing stats, because they play in a team likely to dominate the ball. If you look at Rice's stats for West Ham, compared to his stats playing for England over the Summer, they look significantly better when he plays for England - unsurprising because England were technically a better team than many of the opponents they faced and had most of the ball.
It doesn't take much to understand that this is obvious really. I played a Sunday League game two weeks ago, we won 6-1 and I barely recall giving the ball away (I play CM). Two weeks later, we play top of the league with a depleted side (too many lads down the pub Saturday night!) and we get given the run-around and tonked 7-1. I spent most of the game running, tackling, covering and filling gaps and when we did get the ball, there are barely any options to make a forward pass because we're being penned in. So of course, my percentage passes forwards and my total passes completed is going to be significantly worse than the previous game. Doesn't matter the level, the same is true for any CM depending on whether their team is dominating the ball or largely playing without it. Put Rice in the United/Chelsea/City team and I virtually guarantee he would massively outperform Fred and probably McTominay too.
Rice also wasn't used as a playmaker, and is far more adept at covering defensive spaces than either Fred or Mctominay. Also he's safer with the ball, not so much in terms of attempting things but more in terms of he doesn't get dispossessed or miscontrol the ball carelessly anywhere near as frequently. The amount of times our deeper midfielders give it away to put us in trouble, this season already and last season, is one of our bigger issues. That's why I've been all for Rice even if he never steps up dramatically on the ball.
Depends on the CM. Pogba will normally be in the 80’s because how how many chances he tries to create with difficult passes, but I rarely see him get a normal pass wrong. Someone like Fred or McT that isn’t tasked with the same creative burden should never be posted percentages below 90 for the most part.I remember obsessing about this stat when it was one of the first/only stats available. Scholes and Carrick consistently hit 90%+. Not unusual for them to be >95%.
Was reading two posts from @Mickeza that mentioned this stat. Apparently Declan Rice was 98% in West Ham’s first game and 100% at half time tonight. Pedri finished the Euros match vs Italy with 100%.
Every single one of our midfielders were <80% vs Southampton.
Is that as bad as it sounds? Because to me it sounds very bad. Are there any other top CMs whose pass completion would regularly be that low? Or do we need to dump/replace all of our CMs?
The numbers don’t surprise me. McTominay and Fred are horrible at retaining the ball in spite of their other qualities. Anything below 80% is absolutely terrible unless you can post the numbers like Bruno does to justify the expense.
We aren’t seriously competing for the title unless we replace our fourth and fifth choice central midfielders. Let’s be honest, that is ideally what they would be.
We aren’t seriously competing for the title unless we replace our fourth and fifth choice central midfielders. Let’s be honest, that is ideally what they would be.
finally. the truth is outAnd then there's McSauce. The "unadventurous" "sideways passing" McTominay.
Per 90 mins (since Mctominay played some 700 minutes less than Rice).
Scottie 2 Hottie - I love this guys passion and desire to give it his all. At times last year in the big games, I felt that he showed more fire and willingness to do what it takes for the club. I would keep him and play him more if possible. Last year in the Europa final... I felt like he was one of our only players that showed up to play!
Matic - At times is slow, and his turns.... ohhh lord.. even slower. His experience is nice but his age hurts him... its a toss up, but I would sell him.
Matic - At times is slow, and his turns.... ohhh lord.. even slower. His experience is nice but his age hurts him... its a toss up, but I would sell him.
Bit of a tangent, but peak Xavi was generally a very "safety first" passer. He had a couple of seasons where he racked up assists and played through balls when possible but he then became extremely risk averse and left anything that might drag down pass completion to the likes of Messi and Dani Alves.
On topic: a big feature of players who post excellent passing completion rates is their ability to protect the ball and even buy fouls as opposed to their actual passing ability. I mean anyone can pass a ball 10 yards.
For example, if Pedri or De Jong receive the ball and get quickly closed down, they either dribble out of trouble or shield the ball in such a way as to win a foul. If pressure is applied to Fred, he has to attempt a risky or interceptable pass because he cannot dribble his man or protect the ball as well as the best in the business.
Thought this take on our midfield problems was interesting generally but particularly this bit in regards to Fred's seemingly impressive progressive passing numbers on fbref:
Pass completion at times is nonsense cause it completely depends what type of passes you are going for
That said McTominay and Fred are very poor passers of the ball all things considered.
That said McTominay and Fred are very poor passers of the ball all things considered.
Oh yes I watched him dominate against 10 men. Nice!
They're not very poor and pass completion is not a nonsense. Both of those statements are oversimplifications.
A pass completion needs context, which things like progressive passing, long passes, areas where the passes were played and crucially the team style bring thing to this. When these are factored in it does bring McTominay and especially Fred back down to earth a little because the stats do place them in quite a lofty position considering how many fans deride them.
However, you're not a poor passer of the ball with the numbers they have, playing in a demanding league with little time on the ball. That makes no sense at all.
They have to at least be decent because what argument can sustain them being very poor, your eyeball test or the numbers? Because if it's the former, well...eyes can lie to you because people tend to overly emphasise moments in games rather than the humdrum. If Fred falls on his arse and hooks the ball out of play people remember that over 20 passes he may have made without fail - and yet all midfielders lose the ball occasionally. If it's the stats then why are the relatively few times they give the ball away given such primacy?
I should have said short passes instead of all passes because Kroos attempts long balls multiple times a game and is the best in the world accuracy wise at that skill too.He isn't though.
Those are Kroos' completion stats in La Liga.
McT doesn’t attempt any long forward passes does he? You can’t even compare the players for passing range or accuracy.
In this case stats don’t tell the full story at all. In La Liga Kroos passing accuracy has never dropped below 92 percent and he created more chances than any other Madrid player over the course of 5 years according to Squarka.
There aren't any variables or context to defend two centre mids being below 80%.
Add that to a few others being generally sloppy and that's been our main problem for the last 5 years I'd say.
Add that to a few others being generally sloppy and that's been our main problem for the last 5 years I'd say.
Many of our fans are going to be in for a huge shock if we buy one of these ball winnings DM's. I don't see how this type of player is going to help us break down low blocks. That is the biggest problem our team has. Fred is better at playing the ball forward than a bunch of the names our fans want.
The stats aren't that hugely different. I'm not able to post images yet, but he averages 54.2 passes per 90 for England. Better than West Ham. 2.6 long passes attempted, 60% long passes completed, 11.7 forward passes. All worse than for West Ham.
I'm not a fan of using the eye test only, but England fans had the most complaints about him after our game against Scotland. People complained and said Rice was useless in that game. It's the kind of game that United play almost every week. Against an organised defence that we're expected to break down. His stats don't suggest that he will be better than what we have at breaking teams down and neither does the eye test. A lot of our fans said he was our MOTM against Italy. The only game where we got completely dominated by a superior midfield. He is very good in that type of game. Fred and McTominay would also look good in that type of game. They get about and are happy to put a tackle in. Asking them to control a game is where the problems start.
I think we can do better than our current midfield, but we need the right transfer targets. Rice will give the ball away less than what we have, but he won't pass it forward more.
Do you remember who was Fred's midfield partner in that game? I'll help you. It was Matic. They don't work well together but we had limited options so had to play them.
Stats in individual games are pointless unless you are specifically talking about only that particular match. Stats by their very nature become more accurate with the larger sample size they are taken from, so if possible you should be taking them over the course of a season (or more).
Statistics also need to be taken in context. A good example is how last season Matic was statistically one of the most progressive passers and progressive ball carriers in the league (comparing him to other defensive or box-to-box midfielders). Realistically that's only because he sits much deeper than just about anyone else, so it's much easier for him to pass forward. He and Pogba could pass to the exact same player in the same position on the field, but it'll only count as a progressive pass for Matic as he himself is sat 20 yards behind that player while Pogba would be passing it sideways.
Statistics also need to be taken in context. A good example is how last season Matic was statistically one of the most progressive passers and progressive ball carriers in the league (comparing him to other defensive or box-to-box midfielders). Realistically that's only because he sits much deeper than just about anyone else, so it's much easier for him to pass forward. He and Pogba could pass to the exact same player in the same position on the field, but it'll only count as a progressive pass for Matic as he himself is sat 20 yards behind that player while Pogba would be passing it sideways.
Did you miss the part where I said "At Times" As in it doesn't tell the full story.
And yes they are poor relative to the better Midfielders out there.
They have other attributes. McTominay driving with the ball, Fred hassling and harrying etc etc
Their passing ability is not top level quality.
Also I feel your nit picking over the definition of the word poor. To me I frame everything in the Context of Manchester United and for Manchester United players that are Midfielders their passing ability is a lot closer to poor than it is to good.
One thing that really grates me about our players is the amount of time they pass the ball with backspin on it.
Wow, just seeing the stats of Rice v Fred/Scott. My honest opinion is if Scott was wearing a West Ham shirt, he'd look no different than Rice, in the same way Lingard looks a completely different player in a West Ham shirt. It's all about context and the pressure of expectation. The game is different if the expectation of the club in mid table or avoid relegation. Also some of the fan base are fixated that MCFred is the problem, but the biggest games that we have won in Prem and CL, MCFred have been mostly our best players. Not Bruno or Pogba.....and how did we get to semi's, finals and 2nd with two 'Championship' quality players if games are lost and won in midfield?
It's interesting cause if you always look for the poor pass, then that's all you see. You actually become somewhat blind to anything positive because that's not what you are looking for.
It's interesting cause if you always look for the poor pass, then that's all you see. You actually become somewhat blind to anything positive because that's not what you are looking for.
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That's why the eye test can be unreliable. People have their own biases and misconceptions. If you think a player is bad, you will certainly focus more on the bad things he does and pass over the good. I know that stats don't tell the full story, but I'll take a long list of stats over an extended period over someone's eye test in most cases.
McFred can be improved upon, but they're not complete shit like some of our fans say. They would do well in any team outside of the top 5/6 clubs. Our main rivals have better midfielders. That's a problem. We need to upgrade, but only with the right players. McFred look quite good in games where we're having to defend more. They do well in that kind of midfield battle.
Lingard looked great for West Ham, because he's allowed space to run into. Half of the goals he scored were on the counter, he got a couple long shots outside of the box, and two pens. Well, he missed one pen, but scored the follow up. It's the kind of space that he doesn't get in most games for United. He will look good for any team that gets space to work with. That's not really a bad thing. You still have to be a good player to make use of the chances you get, but it's harder at bigger clubs that have to break down low blocks. You're also right that lower pressure at smaller clubs will help some players to perform better.
When we get chances to counter, we usually punish the opposition. Rashford is so deadly with space to run into.
It's all about context. Some players make riskier passes. Some don't. My guess is Gatusso probably had a very high passing % because all he ever did was pass it 5 yards to Pirlo. Bruno on the other hand often has a low pass % because he often tries a risky pass to try and spring a player...I remember obsessing about this stat when it was one of the first/only stats available. Scholes and Carrick consistently hit 90%+. Not unusual for them to be >95%.
Was reading two posts from @Mickeza that mentioned this stat. Apparently Declan Rice was 98% in West Ham’s first game and 100% at half time tonight. Pedri finished the Euros match vs Italy with 100%.
Every single one of our midfielders were <80% vs Southampton.
Is that as bad as it sounds? Because to me it sounds very bad. Are there any other top CMs whose pass completion would regularly be that low? Or do we need to dump/replace all of our CMs?
I'm not sure this one game is particularly representative of the players. I think the tactics, the balance of players, the performance on the day all made life hard. Like i think Maguire and Shaw for instance were below their usual 'having a bad game' level and same for a few others, so it was a particularly bad day for most. So I wouldn't read too much into this particularly match. Like your right in a general sense - its clear certain players are repeatedly targeted by opposition out of a sense that they'll cough up possession but we dont help them to avoid or mitigate it much.
I kept seeing Matic dropping back to our defence and Fred being pretty isolated on his own in the middle of the park. And it was obvious that the second he touched the ball southampton were going to send 2 players to rush him down and press him. But we kept doing it, we didn't bring players back to give him easy passes to play around the press. We didn't push Matic forward, instead of having a back 3 to defend against a non existent Southampton forward line. We bounced it around our back 3 before sending it on to Fred and playing into their obvious trap again and again and again.
Same with Wan Bisakka which was another issue on the day. Teams are happy enough to let him have the ball but know that when pressed he's liable to give it away or play someone into trouble. Its a bit of a theme during his time here that the only time our right wingers get the ball from him they're going to be facing their own goal with 2 players nearby. Maybe the odd pass up the line to chase but theres not much in the way of one two's or a few passes to create a gap to play through.
That middle line of the team thats meant to move the ball from defence to attack isn't good or strong. AWB, McTominay, Fred, Shaw to be specific. Having Matic drop back is sabotaging it further though and going to create problems against the weakest teams. I think if you get them all sharp and fit and try to offset it a bit by having the likes of Maguire step forward or Pogba step back it doesn't need to be the crippling weakness it was against Southampton. Long term obviously the Wan Bisakka, McTominay side of that midfield needs attention (declan rice isn't a solution imo) but we can work around it in the meantime.
I kept seeing Matic dropping back to our defence and Fred being pretty isolated on his own in the middle of the park. And it was obvious that the second he touched the ball southampton were going to send 2 players to rush him down and press him. But we kept doing it, we didn't bring players back to give him easy passes to play around the press. We didn't push Matic forward, instead of having a back 3 to defend against a non existent Southampton forward line. We bounced it around our back 3 before sending it on to Fred and playing into their obvious trap again and again and again.
Same with Wan Bisakka which was another issue on the day. Teams are happy enough to let him have the ball but know that when pressed he's liable to give it away or play someone into trouble. Its a bit of a theme during his time here that the only time our right wingers get the ball from him they're going to be facing their own goal with 2 players nearby. Maybe the odd pass up the line to chase but theres not much in the way of one two's or a few passes to create a gap to play through.
That middle line of the team thats meant to move the ball from defence to attack isn't good or strong. AWB, McTominay, Fred, Shaw to be specific. Having Matic drop back is sabotaging it further though and going to create problems against the weakest teams. I think if you get them all sharp and fit and try to offset it a bit by having the likes of Maguire step forward or Pogba step back it doesn't need to be the crippling weakness it was against Southampton. Long term obviously the Wan Bisakka, McTominay side of that midfield needs attention (declan rice isn't a solution imo) but we can work around it in the meantime.
Stats is as good as your interpretation. I recall Fellaini being quoted as 1 of the highest % on passing, do you rate him as good, or even decent MF? If all his passing is backward or only making safest choice sideway, then 99% is still rubbish.I remember obsessing about this stat when it was one of the first/only stats available. Scholes and Carrick consistently hit 90%+. Not unusual for them to be >95%.
Was reading two posts from @Mickeza that mentioned this stat. Apparently Declan Rice was 98% in West Ham’s first game and 100% at half time tonight. Pedri finished the Euros match vs Italy with 100%.
Every single one of our midfielders were <80% vs Southampton.
Is that as bad as it sounds? Because to me it sounds very bad. Are there any other top CMs whose pass completion would regularly be that low? Or do we need to dump/replace all of our CMs?
Having said that, 80% does mean poor, if you put Fred's mis-pass into perspective. Or, do you prefer Bruno's 1 out of 3 success forward pass, or Fellaini's 100% backward pass?
IMO, 90% is essential but inconclusive, you really need to look at the game itself, to judge if those 10% mis-pass is worth the risk or not.
Spot on.
These are all very misleading. Three average passers being compared to one another and made to look relatively good by a pass completion stat which doesn't tell the full story of their passing range being bang average. We spend a lot of time struggling to get the ball to our forwards because our midfielders are incapable of passing between the lines, and hence reversing to short nothing passes helps their completion rate vut ot doesn't change the mediocrity of their passing ability.And then there's McSauce. The "unadventurous" "sideways passing" McTominay.
Per 90 mins (since Mctominay played some 700 minutes less than Rice).
But you watch Fred and Matic every week. You know the context. They don't generally play riskier passes. Certainly not risky to the point <80% pass rate is justified.
No but then again they don't generally have sub-80s pass completion rates do they.
It's not bang average as far as Fred is concerned. 82 percentile. Which means he's in the top 20% of midfielders.
The stats lads, which are the best sets of stats to use to measure the passing ability of CMs? It would be useful to have a short list of go to stats to help discussions.
Don’t often like super detailed analyses like that but have to agree with everything he says.
Same. And "surprisingly" almost every poor game Fred has is with Matic next to him. I like Matic a lot but he is super immobile making Fred stretch so much.
Pass completion without context is meaningless. For instance Tom Cleverley always clocked up 90%+ when he was here because he only really played very simple passes. Beckham on the other hand was barely over 70% typically as he played predominantly risky passes. Obviously Beckham was a better passer than Cleverley. The amount of passes they make combined with the types of passes verses the pass completion rate tells you more. If a player is making a lot of passes for his position, including a lot of key passes and long balls and is also putting up big pass completion stats then he's a shit hot passer.I remember obsessing about this stat when it was one of the first/only stats available. Scholes and Carrick consistently hit 90%+. Not unusual for them to be >95%.
Was reading two posts from @Mickeza that mentioned this stat. Apparently Declan Rice was 98% in West Ham’s first game and 100% at half time tonight. Pedri finished the Euros match vs Italy with 100%.
Every single one of our midfielders were <80% vs Southampton.
Is that as bad as it sounds? Because to me it sounds very bad. Are there any other top CMs whose pass completion would regularly be that low? Or do we need to dump/replace all of our CMs?
Data without context is pointless. Pass completion is important. But you have to take into account the style/tactics of the team, the position he plays, the amount of possession, the style of the opposition, etc. And averages over a season give a better indication of ability as well, instead of one game.
Counter attacking teams will have less passes and lower completion rates, for example. Playing against strong pressing teams will also result in lower than normal pass completion as well. Like against Southampton.
Counter attacking teams will have less passes and lower completion rates, for example. Playing against strong pressing teams will also result in lower than normal pass completion as well. Like against Southampton.