Pass completion % for CMs

[Pogue Mahone]

I remember obsessing about this stat when it was one of the first/only stats available. Scholes and Carrick consistently hit 90%+. Not unusual for them to be >95%.

Was reading two posts from @Mickeza that mentioned this stat. Apparently Declan Rice was 98% in West Ham’s first game and 100% at half time tonight. Pedri finished the Euros match vs Italy with 100%.

Every single one of our midfielders were <80% vs Southampton.

Is that as bad as it sounds? Because to me it sounds very bad. Are there any other top CMs whose pass completion would regularly be that low? Or do we need to dump/replace all of our CMs?

 

[Jericho]

I think it's overrated and for the most part I don't think we're the kind of team where it matters. Pogba and Fernandes are the type of players to take risks that won't always work out and will bring down the pass completion percentage.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think it's overrated and for the most part I don't think we're the kind of team where it matters. Pogba and Fernandes are the type of players to take risks that won't always work out and will bring down the pass completion percentage.

They get a pass as they’re supposed to focus on attacking and being creative (the way Pogba is being used whenever he plays well anyway)

It’s the players behind them I’m more worried about. If your job is mainly to spoil and recycle then you need to be damn sure to recycle accurately.

 

[sullydnl]

I would think that rather than just looking at pass completion stats you would get a better idea of what a midfielder is about by looking at pass completion relative to ball progression and chance creation type stats. I'm sure some midfielders sacrifice one for the other (so a lower completion rate might be more excusable) just as I'm sure you could have two midfielders with similar pass completion numbers but operating at completely different levels in terms of how effective/progressive their passing is.

Just from watching them play though I would guess that while someone like Fred might be less safe in his passing than someone like McTominay he still gives the ball away too much relative to the type of passing game he offers.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

I haven't seen the numbers from the last game, but assuming it's Fred and Matic who ended up below 80% completion, that's a shambles. No question.

Completely different if it's a forward or creative player like Fernandes getting low numbers by trying risky passes. These two offer nothing on the ball anyway, the least they can do is find teammates with simple passes.

 

[bucky]

Generally it doesn't mean much without other passing stats. Ndidi is a good example of that. He has a fairly good completion rate, but other metrics show that he is an average passer of the ball.

I think it's better to look for players that average more passes per game than most and afterwards look at their completion rate and other metrics, such as progressive passes, passes into the final third, how efficient their long passing is, etc. Below 80% is not good enough however you look at it though.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Yes, it's as bad as it sounds. A midfielder with a passing % of less the 85 is no use to a team. Below 80 is just bang out of order.

 

[Jericho]

They get a pass as they’re supposed to focus on attacking and being creative (the way Pogba is being used whenever he plays well anyway)

It’s the players behind them I’m more worried about. If your job is mainly to spoil and recycle then you need to be damn sure to recycle accurately.

Fair point. Fred in particular when he's bad is woeful when it comes to recycling the ball accurately.

I don't know but Van De Beek might be better at doing this job. I also just noticed that he's not some slender lightweight that I for some reason thought he was, he over 6ft tall, so he may also have enough of a physical presence to sit in there as a normal CM behind Fernandes.

 

[Oranges038]

If you can't hit your target with a pass at least 85+ times out of 100, your not good enough to be in midfield for a team that is aiming to win trophies.

I remember seeing somewhere from Opta sin e it started sometime around the end of the 90s where Roy Keane had a passing accuracy of 88/89% over 5 seasons playing about 2000 passes a season.

 

[Pavl3n]

There were a few lose passes from Fred and from Matic in the last game. I doubt any of them had a high number of dribbles completed.
Fred should be looking at average passes completed to be more than 90%

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I remember obsessing about this stat when it was one of the first/only stats available. Scholes and Carrick consistently hit 90%+. Not unusual for them to be >95%.

Was reading two posts from @Mickeza that mentioned this stat. Apparently Declan Rice was 98% in West Ham’s first game and 100% at half time tonight. Pedri finished the Euros match vs Italy with 100%.

Every single one of our midfielders were <80% vs Southampton.

Is that as bad as it sounds? Because to me it sounds very bad. Are there any other top CMs whose pass completion would regularly be that low? Or do we need to dump/replace all of our CMs?

Our passing was not good on Sunday. We should definitely expect better percentages from our CMs.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

To be fair, it's just 1 game.

Fred's passing completion % has been higher than 85 the past 3 seasons.

McTominay's was 87% last season.

Matic is the high 80s as well.

Not excusing our poor passing vs Saints though. It was fairly terrible.

 

[Son]

To be fair, it's just 1 game.

Fred's passing completion % has been higher than 85 the past 3 seasons.

McTominay's was 87% last season.

Matic is the high 80s as well.

Not excusing our poor passing vs Saints though. It was fairly terrible.

I would argue 87 percent for a club like United is very average.

Toni Kroos for Real is way up in the mid 90’s.

Obviously the talent level is just completely different but shows the gap in quality of our players to the very best if we want to win the biggest trophies.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I would argue 87 percent for a club like United is very average.

Toni Kroos for Real is way up in the mid 90’s.

Obviously the talent level is just completely different but shows the gap in quality of our players to the very best if we want to win the biggest trophies.

He isn't though.

Those are Kroos' completion stats in La Liga.

 

[KennyBurner]

I remember obsessing about this stat when it was one of the first/only stats available. Scholes and Carrick consistently hit 90%+. Not unusual for them to be >95%.

Was reading two posts from @Mickeza that mentioned this stat. Apparently Declan Rice was 98% in West Ham’s first game and 100% at half time tonight. Pedri finished the Euros match vs Italy with 100%.

Every single one of our midfielders were <80% vs Southampton.

Is that as bad as it sounds? Because to me it sounds very bad. Are there any other top CMs whose pass completion would regularly be that low? Or do we need to dump/replace all of our CMs?

Declan rive does not attempt many passes. Him not having 100% completion playing safe sideway passes would be embarrassing.

 

[Ayoba]

I remember obsessing about this stat when it was one of the first/only stats available. Scholes and Carrick consistently hit 90%+. Not unusual for them to be >95%.

Was reading two posts from @Mickeza that mentioned this stat. Apparently Declan Rice was 98% in West Ham’s first game and 100% at half time tonight. Pedri finished the Euros match vs Italy with 100%.

Every single one of our midfielders were <80% vs Southampton.

Is that as bad as it sounds? Because to me it sounds very bad. Are there any other top CMs whose pass completion would regularly be that low? Or do we need to dump/replace all of our CMs?

Pogba and Fernandes I can understand as they're playing attacking passes so there is a higher chance of the pass being intercepted. But for our defensive mids, that's shocking. Fred in particular was so poor with his passing against Soton. This is an area, amongst many others, where Roy Keane excelled at. Simple passes, didn't lose possession and kept the football flowing. Such an underrated skill yet so crucial!

 

[amolbhatia50k]

This is a case where the eye test and the stats align. Fred and Mctominay in particular are poor passers of the ball. Mctominay is very mediocre at it whereas Fred is hit and miss in that he can sometimes play some great ones but other times he'll shoot rockets out of play. And neither of them has a passing range to speak of. Teams know they can only pass it very short. Matic is no better and we'll part it

At the end of the day, if you're a big club that wants to dominate you need composure, passing ability and intelligence in the middle of the park. We don't have it.

 

[Lynty]

If your after pass completion percentages. Go and re-watch LVG era United, I imagine every player was high 90%

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Its much to simplistic, a DM or holding CM is going to likely have a better pass % than a more creative player for obvious reasons.

 

[11101]

It's irrelevant for players like Fernandes and Pogba. They're in the team to take risks and that means pass completion will be lower.

The other players in midfield need high percentages, but it's not just about the player passing the ball. It's about whether the others around them are moving sufficiently to receive the ball. You can't pass the ball successfully if you've nobody to pass to, or if they're not moving into good positions. That's as much a problem as anything in our team and was especially so against Southampton. Matic in particular is never available to receive a pass unless he's stood right next to Maguire.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's irrelevant for players like Fernandes and Pogba. They're in the team to take risks and that means pass completion will be lower.

The other players in midfield need high percentages, but it's not just about the player passing the ball. It's about whether the others around them are moving sufficiently to receive the ball. You can't pass the ball successfully if you've nobody to pass to, or if they're not moving into good positions. That's as much a problem as anything in our team and was especially so against Southampton. Matic in particular is never available to receive a pass unless he's stood right next to Maguire.

It’s a far bigger problem for McT than it is for Matic. That’s why we had 73% possession in the second half up until he replaced Fred, then only 40% from that point onwards. McT always stands out as the worst CM we have when it comes to making himself available for a pass.

Conversely, Fred’s scattergun passing is a nightmare but he’s by far our best CM at the basics of knowing where to position himself, both when we have possession and when we don’t.

 

[11101]

It’s a far bigger problem for McT than it is for Matic. That’s why we had 73% possession in the second half up until he replaced Fred, then only 40% from that point onwards. McT always stands out as the worst CM we have when it comes to making himself available for a pass.

That's why fans are barking up the wrong tree when they think Fred should be the one replaced in our midfield. McTominay can be great in certain games but he doesn't allow us to control the ball enough, though he is better suited to playing with Fred than Matic is. Fred will chase and harry but he needs a partner to sweep up when he chases a player down and McTominay is quite good at that. What he isn't so good at is pass and move when we do have the ball. He wants to get the ball and run with it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That's why fans are barking up the wrong tree when they think Fred should be the one replaced in our midfield. McTominay can be great in certain games but he doesn't allow us to control the ball enough, though he is better suited to playing with Fred than Matic is. Fred will chase and harry but he needs a partner to sweep up when he chases a player down and McTominay is quite good at that. What he isn't so good at is pass and move when we do have the ball. He wants to get the ball and run with it.

Yes. Agreed.

 

[Pronewbie]

We don't need to argue about specific metrics and dimensions to agree that we need reinforcements to our midfield if we were to challenge for honours and put more bums on seats on a consistent basis.. Some of our overall play can be hard to watch.

 

[meamth]

He isn't though.

Those are Kroos' completion stats in La Liga.

Another stereotyping because he is German, technical, playing in La Liga, and most importantly, won things.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Declan rive does not attempt many passes. Him not having 100% completion playing safe sideway passes would be embarrassing.

I guess you didn’t watch yesterday’s match then?

 

[Hoof the ball]

You have to consider the variables. Remember when Leon Britton had a better pass % than Xavi that one season? Better passer? No, he simply played the simple pass every time, whereas, Xavi would make ridiculous through-balls regularly. Pass % only means something when measuring two or more players of a similar tactical function. Adventurous players will suffer in their percentages for their aggressiveness in making plays happen. Conversely, conservative players will thrive in their percentages for their regressiveness.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I remember obsessing about this stat when it was one of the first/only stats available. Scholes and Carrick consistently hit 90%+. Not unusual for them to be >95%.

Was reading two posts from @Mickeza that mentioned this stat. Apparently Declan Rice was 98% in West Ham’s first game and 100% at half time tonight. Pedri finished the Euros match vs Italy with 100%.

Every single one of our midfielders were <80% vs Southampton.

Is that as bad as it sounds? Because to me it sounds very bad. Are there any other top CMs whose pass completion would regularly be that low? Or do we need to dump/replace all of our CMs?

All depends what their role is/was. Scholes' is ridiculous when you think he regularly would take on long range & high risk balls alongside the shorter ones.

I remember Joe Allen when at Swansea had a better passing % than any footballer in Europe at one point which probably shows how useless it is to look at in isolation.

Ole's style is not bothered with offensive/positional possession, it's high turnover and direct football...that said below 80% is really low and is probably a testament to their pressing system combined with our tactics.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

I guess you didn’t watch yesterday’s match then?

He was on a different level yesterday, utter class and is one of those players you need to watch the whole game to appreciate. He does not simply go back and sideways

 

[Born2Lose]

It's bad for a guy like Matic who only passes backwards and to the side.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He was on a different level yesterday, utter class and is one of those players you need to watch the whole game to appreciate. He does not simply go back and sideways

He’s absolutely quality. At United we love McT for his ability to carry the ball forward to support the attack. Rice does that just as well and passes the ball extremely accurately and consistently. While also providing the same hustle and energy that Fred brings to our midfield. He’s so much better than any of our central midfield options it’s depressing.

And I’m saying this as someone who rates Fred!

 

[eire-red]

If you take risks on the ball, then it's fine. Pogba and Bruno are examples of this. If you don't take risks, then it's very poor. Neither Matic, Fred nor McTominay take risks when passing, they're just very average at moving the ball competently and accurately.

It's a huge reason why we fail to gain control in so many games. Against Leeds, the disjointed nature of the game suits Fred and McTominay. Against Southampton, they reset after we equalised and slowly got back into the game due to our inability to control the midfield.

 

[Hoof the ball]

He was on a different level yesterday, utter class and is one of those players you need to watch the whole game to appreciate. He does not simply go back and sideways

Yesterday, yes, but over an entire season he's not nearly as progressive or adventurous as people would have you believe.

 

[golden_blunder]

If your after pass completion percentages. Go and re-watch LVG era United, I imagine every player was high 90%

But still boring as fook. Still if it’s passing that turns you on go for it

 

[justsomebloke]

I remember obsessing about this stat when it was one of the first/only stats available. Scholes and Carrick consistently hit 90%+. Not unusual for them to be >95%.

Was reading two posts from @Mickeza that mentioned this stat. Apparently Declan Rice was 98% in West Ham’s first game and 100% at half time tonight. Pedri finished the Euros match vs Italy with 100%.

Every single one of our midfielders were <80% vs Southampton.

Is that as bad as it sounds? Because to me it sounds very bad. Are there any other top CMs whose pass completion would regularly be that low? Or do we need to dump/replace all of our CMs?

You'll be hard pressed to find a CM with a pass completion of 90% or more, over any considerable length of time. Rice was at 86,4% last season, which is not particularly great. Below 80 is weak, but it's a single game you're talking about. Over the last season, Fred had 88,2%, which is very good and also better than Declan Rice. So his pass completion is not regularly that low.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yesterday, yes, but over an entire season he's not nearly as progressive or adventurous as people would have you believe.

That really just shows how good/under-rated Fred was last season!

Rice is also very young and can be expected to get better and better. He’s talked about how he intends to carry the ball more from this season on. And that’s been very obvious in his performances for West Ham (and England in the Euros)

 

[cyberman]

He was on a different level yesterday, utter class and is one of those players you need to watch the whole game to appreciate. He does not simply go back and sideways

We have seen Rice, judging it all on 1 game yesterday where he played v 10 men for 45 minutes isnt a great barometer.

 

[Hoof the ball]

That really just shows how good/under-rated Fred was last season!

Rice is also very young and can be expected to get better and better. He’s talked about how he intends to carry the ball more from this season on. And that’s been very obvious in his performances for West Ham (and England in the Euros)

And then there's McSauce. The "unadventurous" "sideways passing" McTominay.

Per 90 mins (since Mctominay played some 700 minutes less than Rice).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You'll be hard pressed to find a CM with a pass completion of 90% or more, over any considerable length of time. Rice was at 86,4% last season, which is not particularly great. Below 80 is weak, but it's a single game you're talking about. Over the last season, Fred had 88,2%, which is very good and also better than Declan Rice. So his pass completion is not regularly that low.

Yeah, didn’t realise Fred’s was that high last season. But I thought he had a very good season so shouldn’t be too surprised. I just wish he wasn’t so inconsistent. He’s even inconsistent over the course of 90 minutes!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And then there's McSauce. The "unadventurous" "sideways passing" McTominay.

Per 90 mins (since Mctominay played some 700 minutes less than Rice).

Now that I did not expect. My memory of McT is of a lot of games passing him by.