Paul Pogba (Out) | Romano - "United confident about keeping Pogba this summer"

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WW Lynchpin
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Isn't that place a battleground these days? Lots of vocal critics when things aren't going well and he aint' contributing and we cant find him a pen.
I haven't read that thread for a while but I'll take your word for it.

The original point stands, minus the evidence of course :p
 

mu4c_20le

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I haven't read that thread for a while but I'll take your word for it.

The original point stands, minus the evidence of course :p
:lol: to be fair, for the first copule of months where he looked like he was going to win the balon d'or, you'd be right.
 

Sayros

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Isn't that place a battleground these days? Lots of vocal critics when things aren't going well and he aint' contributing and we cant find him a pen.
I haven't been, but it wouldn't surprise me, because as some like to point out that stats doesn't tell the whole story with Pogba, same goes for Bruno who's very underwhelming on the eye, very sloppy himself with his passing, but has great stats that can't be denied. The main difference between Bruno and Pogba is that Bruno being higher up, his many poor passes don't affect the team anywhere as much as Pogba from the middle of the park or even his own half. He (Pogba) still hasn't learned to be more careful with the ball in his half and at this point, I suspect he never will.
 

deleon

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This may be a stupid observation but the debate of whether he has been consistently good or not good doesn’t really seem to be important at this stage.

He hasn’t renewed his contract. His agent has said he wants to leave. There is a big chance that he will walk away for free next season (he has done it before). It doesn’t seem to be in the clubs hands except if we offer him crazy money which I don’t think anyone wants us to do (speak up if you do).

Then it seems to be logical to sell him. One season of Pogba is not worth £50m of transfer fee plus £12m of wages. Besides, he has spent each of the last 2 seasons injured for a significant period. That money would get us Camavinga (I know he is not a like for like replacement).
The alternative isn't necessarily losing him for free. He could be offered an extension with the tacit understanding that he will be allowed to leave the following summer. So it then becomes whether one season of Pogba is worth the (presumed) pay rise but higher eventual transfer fee (also presumed, and perhaps more wildly so).
 

Matt851

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You’re wasting you’re time here mate. The reason people don’t like Pogba is nothing to do with what he does on the pitch. It never has been. People see what they want to see, Pogba’s many good games will be ignored but as soon as he has a bad game they’ll point to that for confirmation bias.
Its hard to argue that he hasnt been inconsistent and injured too often at United. My problem with keeping him would be that he doesnt work with bruno either in a 4231 or a 433. He pkayed well on the left at times last season but i think it unbalances the team
 

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You’re wasting you’re time here mate. The reason people don’t like Pogba is nothing to do with what he does on the pitch. It never has been. People see what they want to see, Pogba’s many good games will be ignored but as soon as he has a bad game they’ll point to that for confirmation bias.
Go on then, why would a United fan judge Pogba on anything but his ability to perform on the pitch? Makes no sense mate.
 

Borys

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See this right there is the hypocritical part because all the things Pogba is accused of like inconsistent during the games can be equally applied to Bruno as well but his poor performances can usually be masked by telling contributions .
But due to your inherent bias you are giving him greater leeway and have tried to describe him as brilliant one game and while poor in some but one could argue he is more of a moment's player than Pogba and he isn't the best tactical fit either .
Hypocritical? Didn't you read my post when I called both Pogba and Bruno inconsistent?
Bruno is for sure a "moments" player, but so is Pogba and I don't want that kind of player in midfield. So this leaves us with a choice who plays the AM position, I pick Bruno for a number of reasons (objective like he's our best attacking player in terms of numbers, he's far less injury-prone and subjective like he seems to care more than Pogba). Who would you pick and why?
By the way, I don't understand why are you attacking me for my opinion, if I ever hurt your feelings I'm sorry, it wasn't personal.

Not arguing anything, everyone is free to come to the conclusion they like. My point was to raise a relevant caveat that wasn't taken into account due to the nature of the data. There are more of course, but the point itself is more important than the exact caveats and thus just one will suffice.

In any case, surely if you present stats and form a conclusion with them, you'd expect to see some holes poked in your theory? If the goal is to use stats to get others to agree with your already formed pov, then what's the point? There are stats that can do that for any pov.
You questioned the stats provided by @hobbers, and argued that Pogba starting the game isn't the best way to judge his effect on the team because he made an impact from the bench. It's a fair point but it doesn't change the fact we're getting significantly more points when he isn't starting. It's not a hole in theory, it's a different point.

Fbref provides another angle, with "impact" calculated per 90', but including each game in which given player was on the pitch 30'+. Here you can see a summary for 2020/21 season. All those stats tell the story Pogba isn't that important for United as some might suggest.

The alternative isn't necessarily losing him for free. He could be offered an extension with the tacit understanding that he will be allowed to leave the following summer. So it then becomes whether one season of Pogba is worth the (presumed) pay rise but higher eventual transfer fee (also presumed, and perhaps more wildly so).
I don't understand this.
If he didn't sign an extension until now, it's because he either wants more money, or wants to move to a different club - or both.
Now if he signs an extension, it'll probably mean there will be less clubs interested in buying him next season (because they have to pay the fee) AND he gets less money in wages (because they have to pay the fee).
If he has already agreed to join a club next summer for free, makes no sense to sign the contract extension.
I can see him signing an extension if we agree to pay some ridiculous wages, but that is very unlikely. Year ago, maybe, but now now.
 
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DSG

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Since Ole took over -

With Pogba starting
Played: 49
Won: 25
Drawn: 10
Lost: 14

Goals for: 87
Goals against: 60

Points per game: 1.73
Win rate: 51%
Loss rate: 28.6%
Goals per game: 1.77
Goals against per game: 1.22


Without Pogba starting
Played: 58
Won: 35
Drawn: 11
Lost: 12

Goals for: 110
Goals against: 50

Points per game: 2.0
Win rate: 60.3%
Loss rate: 20.7%
Goals per game: 1.89
Goals against per game: 0.86
@hobbers thanks so much for putting this together.

Too often, we cherry pick stats to fit our beliefs —confirmation bias — rather than looking for data to form our opinions. This is a pretty convincing argument that the team is better without Pogba.

I will say that 50 matches for either sample size is right at the edge of a statistically significant sample size. There are some results that will skew the data. A 6-1 loss to Spurs, for example. However, for me, this actually confirms my conclusions via eye test. I’ll never forget the Everton loss where Pogba couldn’t be bothered to fight, track back, get a red card, anything. Too many times, I’ve wondered, “Where is Pogba?”. Dumb handball in the box…bad tackle…. Loss of possession in defensive third. Yet, he can take you breath away with a bit of skill…

‘There is a reason we debate Pogba “Good or Bad?”. It’s because there is a legitimate debate. The answer is both. and by the way, we really don’t have those debates for Bruno, Rashford, Cavani, Maguire, AWB, Shaw…. Why? Because those aren’t really debates, with a few small exceptions. Pogba, on the other hand, has held this club and the Caf hostage. You can’t get into a thread without running into a Pogba or Ole debate.

‘Sometimes you have a girlfriend or significant other whose positive and negative attributes are so far at the end of either spectrum, they excite you to no end, while at the same time making you absolutely miserable with their crazy. That’s Pogba. And we know, the best thing to do in that situation is break up, move on. It’s not worth the trouble.
 

Scholsey2004

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I reckon we're holding off announcing Sancho because the club knows Pogba is leaving and want to keep the clubs narrative upbeat. So when the Sancho announcement finally comes i'd expect Pogba to leave soon after.
 

Scholsey2004

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Me too. Tired of his soap operas every year.
Thats a big factor as well and i wouldnt be surprised if that was orchestrated between him and his agent to wear us down into accepting his leaving at a reduced fee. Personally i think theyve been working to get a move since Mourinho's time.
 

alexthelion

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The one person who will benefit the most from leaving is Pogba after wasting most of his prime under average clueless managers.
Especially when he goes to a slower, more open league than the PL.
 

RedCurry

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He is expected to be Kante, Xavi and Yaya Toure all in one.

I fully agree with you. It's unreal how much micro-analysis goes into Pogba.
I’d be okay if Pogba showed the stamina of Kante OR the ball carrying and goal scoring ability of Toure OR the passing ability of Xavi just consistently for us. It’s fair for fans to expect something predictable from a midfielder. On his day he’s unplayable but you cannot have such poor days, so often, as a midfielder as he has for us. Then you add the Raiola circus, it’s just not worth it.
 

The United

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I’d be okay if Pogba showed the stamina of Kante OR the ball carrying and goal scoring ability of Toure OR the passing ability of Xavi just consistently for us. It’s fair for fans to expect something predictable from a midfielder. On his day he’s unplayable but you cannot have such poor days, so often, as a midfielder as he has for us. Then you add the Raiola circus, it’s just not worth it.
It is clear to me that what is happening to all these Pogba in and out groups.

I think fans who think that the team should not build around Pogba tell the fans who think the team should build around Pogba ( even thought they have no idea how exactly) that the team should not build around Pogba while paying ridiculous amount of money for it.

Nothing exactly to do with overrating or underrating the player.
 

hobbers

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Are you sure these stats are right? Because with Pogba starting under Ole we won 30 games which makes the rest of the stats suspicious.
Not entirely, I got them from a shabby looking site, but it doesn't actually say when they start from, whether it's from Ole interim or from when Ole got his permanent deal, or just the last two full seasons.

I worked out the stats for all of Pogba's starts in all competitions under Ole from the very first Cardiff game -

72 starts
37 wins
13 draws
22 defeats
51% win rate
1.7ppg if you ignore it being all comps
31% loss rate (higher than the league stats I posted)
128 goals scored (1.8 per game)
102 conceded (1.4 per game, again worse than the league stats)

So whatever games they included they seem consistent with the stats for all of Pogba's games under Ole. Presumably the games Pogba didn't start in are fairly reliable too, but I can't be arsed checking.

And if you exclude the period when Ole was only interim, these stats obviously get a lot worse because that was our best period under Ole, and also Pogba's best form under Ole. You can pretty much make the case that, however vital Pogba was to our team in his first two seasons here under Mourinho, since Bruno has arrived his impact on our chances of winning games and keeping clean sheets seems to be negative rather than positive.


Just worked it out, since Ole got his permanent deal Pogba has started 62 games, and in those games we scored 99 goals and conceded 91, only a +8 goal difference. 48% were wins and 34% defeats. Grim.
 
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RedCurry

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It is clear to me that what is happening to all these Pogba in and out groups.

I think fans who think that the team should not build around Pogba tell the fans who think the team should build around Pogba ( even thought they have no idea how exactly) that the team should not build around Pogba while paying ridiculous amount of money for it.

Nothing exactly to do with overrating or underrating the player.
It is clear to me that what is happening to all these Pogba in and out groups.

I think fans who think that the team should not build around Pogba tell the fans who think the team should build around Pogba ( even thought they have no idea how exactly) that the team should not build around Pogba while paying ridiculous amount of money for it.

Nothing exactly to do with overrating or underrating the player.
Usually successful team are not built around a single player to begin with. But in cases that they are, the player usually has at least one quality that can be considered consistently world class. Pogba can show world class dribbling, passing, running, scoring but he does that far too sporadically.
 

Nevilles.Wear.Prada

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He just want to waltz around the pitch with unhurried body language hoping that other players around pick up the work load. He wants to do the zidane turn at key area to wow people while he and his agent bad mouth the club. Probably for his branding, nothing wrong with that but thats not what the club needs. We need fighters at every spot, anything above 30 million is a steal. Imagine he stay without new contract. For Every good game his agent will be running his mouth and every horrible game the fans will say he is playing it too safe not risking injuries, it will be a circus and will be lose lose to the club.
Just let the man go. The experiment had to stop somewhere. Lesson learned. No more brand players, just hungry players who wants to be here and work hard.
 

Mercurial

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Pogba and his active choice of Raiola as an agent makes him less likeable for me. I dont like the way they passive aggressively (player&family) and actively aggressive (agent) humiliate the club that enriched both of them.

Being Swedish I used to love how Raiola looked out for Zlatan but Raiola literally shits on EVERY club he is involved with at the behest of his clients and exits with resentment. Somehow skillfully always leaving the client with enough credible deniability. Raiola is very much responsible to making this formula popularized.

By 2021 it should be quite evident Raiola and by extension the ambitious, talented, highly sought after players that hire him have a clear strategy to maximise their monetary career gains. To try to get a few lucrative big moves by promising glory then upset the stage and engineer more big moves in creative ways (nothing wrong with that on the personal level). But from a club perspective, it's getting transparent and cynical and makes us look dumb if we succumb to it thinking it's mutual love. Clubs playing hardball against this setup just makes his clients instead run out the contracts and leave upset players that earn even more at the end. It's a No win scenario unless you play along.

Clients usually dont hire Raiola to be a loyal club man. The whole Raiola circus goes a bit against the current cycle we are in with rebuild and team spirits. Pogba might be sublime on any given day but the whole Raiola routine is getting VERY stale.
 

Longshanks

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Iv come to a conclusion about Paul Pogba. I really can't work out why at some point in his career someone hasn't turned around to him and said, Paul your a striker not a midfielder.

I think his passing ability is what keeps him in midfield but he doesn't possess the required mental ability to play in Central midfield, far to lax, takes far too many risks, loses the ball in really bad positions too often and his defending is very clumsy and rash.

He has all the attributes to be a world class number 9, especially in the current era where number 9s are encouraged to drop deeper and get involved in the game. The great thing about if he played right up top, he can take as many risks as he wants, when they come off it will likely be a goal, when the don't we lose the ball in a non dangerous position and we don't see him attempting to defend around our box, clumsily giving free kicks or pens away or casually allowing players to run off him.

The problem with Paul is that he has been played in the wrong position his whole career, and for every outstanding thing he does, he has a complete brain fart in a deep position and hands good chances to the opposition. Play him right up top and give him the licence to take risks far away from our goal and you take away him unbalancing the side.
 

Martial

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Isn't that place a battleground these days? Lots of vocal critics when things aren't going well and he aint' contributing and we cant find him a pen.
It's mainly 2-3 posters who coincidentally are the same posters who most defend Paul Pogba in his threads. Funny that.
 

elmo

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Iv come to a conclusion about Paul Pogba. I really can't work out why at some point in his career someone hasn't turned around to him and said, Paul your a striker not a midfielder.

I think his passing ability is what keeps him in midfield but he doesn't possess the required mental ability to play in Central midfield, far to lax, takes far too many risks, loses the ball in really bad positions too often and his defending is very clumsy and rash.

He has all the attributes to be a world class number 9, especially in the current era where number 9s are encouraged to drop deeper and get involved in the game. The great thing about if he played right up top, he can take as many risks as he wants, when they come off it will likely be a goal, when the don't we lose the ball in a non dangerous position and we don't see him attempting to defend around our box, clumsily giving free kicks or pens away or casually allowing players to run off him.

The problem with Paul is that he has been played in the wrong position his whole career, and for every outstanding thing he does, he has a complete brain fart in a deep position and hands good chances to the opposition. Play him right up top and give him the licence to take risks far away from our goal and you take away him unbalancing the side.
It's why I've always felt that Pogba is similar to Gerrard.

They both get praised as some sort of word class misfielder when in actual fact they're both best higher upfront where you don't need to rely on them to stay tactically disciplined.
 

Jim Beam

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Iv come to a conclusion about Paul Pogba. I really can't work out why at some point in his career someone hasn't turned around to him and said, Paul your a striker not a midfielder.

I think his passing ability is what keeps him in midfield but he doesn't possess the required mental ability to play in Central midfield, far to lax, takes far too many risks, loses the ball in really bad positions too often and his defending is very clumsy and rash.

He has all the attributes to be a world class number 9, especially in the current era where number 9s are encouraged to drop deeper and get involved in the game. The great thing about if he played right up top, he can take as many risks as he wants, when they come off it will likely be a goal, when the don't we lose the ball in a non dangerous position and we don't see him attempting to defend around our box, clumsily giving free kicks or pens away or casually allowing players to run off him.

The problem with Paul is that he has been played in the wrong position his whole career, and for every outstanding thing he does, he has a complete brain fart in a deep position and hands good chances to the opposition. Play him right up top and give him the licence to take risks far away from our goal and you take away him unbalancing the side.
I have come to the conclusion that your conclusion is quite wrong.
 

sullydnl

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Whatever about Declan Rice, there are certainly less talented midfielders than Pogba who swapping him for would nonetheless improve us as a team, as for all his talent he doesn't quite fit.

The best solution people seem to have is to play him alongside Bruno in a 4-3-3 with some magic (and seemingly non-existent) DM who can hold that midfield together. Failing that, it's play him in the double pivot (with all the flaws that saw us opt for McFred in a lot of games last season instead) or play him, where, LW maybe? And we'd have to give him an enormous contract for the privilege of fitting him in to the team that way, or let him leave for free next season.

To my mind that's the big issue that leaves arguments about inconsistency, biases, win-rates with him in the team or whatever irrelevant. However good you think he is, you have to be able to fit him into our starting 11.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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I love Pogba the player and I’d be happy for him to sign a new deal but I think it looks like he’s off and honestly I don’t really mind that much. I’m fed up of the constant battles within our own fan base over him. I also don’t think he naturally fits in the midfield alongside Bruno and personally I think a lessor player in that role could end up benefitting the team more.
 

kidbob

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I like Pogba and think he is an incredible player. However for the constant media trouble, his agent and the contract he is demanding he simply isn't worth it and hasn't shown that he's worth it. Now that is likely because we haven't managed to surround him with the right people to make him shine but if we can get 60m for him and that means (as in what I would want) we can sign Neves, Camavinga and Saul while only spending 40-50m net then we should be all over it. That is what we should be aiming to do, for me, if we sell him. Use the opportunity to completely overhaul the midfield. McTominay and Fred can still be options as squad players (which is what they should be) but to be honest if we are losing a player of that quality then we need to use the money to really go all in on 2-3 players.
 

hungrywing

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@hobbers thanks so much for putting this together...
FYI, that general info (~1.7 ppg vs ~2.0 ppg) has been around for years now, posted several times in the Pogba threads, floating around on twitter etc.

...Just worked it out, since Ole got his permanent deal Pogba has started 62 games, and in those games we scored 99 goals and conceded 91, only a +8 goal difference. 48% were wins and 34% defeats. Grim.
The average fan reaaaaallly doesn't understand how bad Woodward was for the club.
 

Chicharo

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You cannot deny the fact that he carried all the burden for about three-four months before getting injured, and when Bruno was obviously out of the shape.
Ok, no problem, let us sell him, but good luck if he we do not bring a replacement, and knowing us, we certainly won't. Even with him we still need a proper DCM, without him we are shit in the midfield and very vulnerable in defense even if somehow we persuade Varane to come
 
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Judas

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You'd get more consistent performances and reliability from Rice than Pogba, that I've no doubt. As much as I love Pogba, even those like myself who will happily defend him, you never know what version you're going to get from day to day.
 

crossy1686

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Team? Most Probably

Pogba is a luxury player.

His inconsistent performances over the last 5 years makes him dispensable for me...
Pogba’s probably our Özil in terms of luxury player. Not all the off field nonsense.

The team Solskjaer is building needs reliable players in the midfield, albeit less talented, which is fine, most teams are built upon these players as foundations.

I’d also say Pogba was pretty consistently good for his first 3 years here, but after Jose he’s either been injured or disinterested. That’s pretty much proven from the cherry picked stats doing the rounds from 3 years ago when he last had a good season.
 

MattyLT

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Bottom line is, Pogba has been underwhelming at Manchester United. There's no getting around that. The only thing up for discussion are the reasons why - of which I'm sure there are plenty outside of his control. And I'd be happy for the club to keep working towards unlocking his potential, if only it wasn't for the recurrent bad-mouthing through his agent. But those two aspects combined is just too much. Punt.
 

Denis79

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I reckon we're holding off announcing Sancho because the club knows Pogba is leaving and want to keep the clubs narrative upbeat. So when the Sancho announcement finally comes i'd expect Pogba to leave soon after.
You think he's sold to PSG? Saw that SKY are reporting they are after him.