'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

big rons sovereign

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I bet you wish you took the juicy odds that would have been on offer of Pep winning a treble in his first season at Barcelona then.
Never made a bet in my life.
It's a mugs game.
 

big rons sovereign

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A response I predict from someone who is only interested in cool and edgy one liners instead of actually forming a proper argument.
More a response based on your complete inability to make discussion without resorting to snarky and snide remarks.
Such is your desperation to start a fight, you highlighted and quoted the wrong paragraph.

And again proven by your response here, nothing of substance, just insults and abuse.
 

fergies coat

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How is this even a point? He spent, others in the league spent
Chelsea Man utd have spent close to him in the same period and have different results

Your team spent close to him but can't say they got it right.

When did he get it right? Was it when they won the league with 100points with 98 points or this season?
I don't think anyone else in the league has spent over £400 million on defender's alone. He's a good manager, but is overrated. This is the same Pep who said he would rather bring players through the academy that spend outrageous amounts in transfers.
 

Daydreamer

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Poor pep, he's so hard done by.

First he had to suffer with being handed arguably the greatest squad in history in a 2 team league.

Then he had the misfortune of being handed yet another world class squad, only this time he had the struggle of a 1 team league.

You'd think his luck would improve, but it seems baldy is cursed as he then finds himself stuck with one of the most expensive squads ever assembled, as well as a bottomless pit of cash.

I feel for the guy, I really do. It must be a nightmare.
He wasn’t handed the greatest squad in history. They had just finished the season empty handed, 18 points behind the Champions. In fact, they were ten points behind Villarreal.

The improvement with Pep was an additional 20 points to take them to the title. Plus the next five trophies on offer -including the Champions League. Pep didn’t make a marginal difference - that is night and day by any reasonable metric.

He did take over a team with some great players in it withthat he moulded into arguably the greatest side ever. To downplay that would be like saying anyone could have replicated Ferguson’s achievements with the Class of 92.

Not to mention the fact that he personally developed some of their academy kids during his tenure as Manager of Barca B.

After that he’s managed at clubs where he’s expected to win trophies. And has done so.

City have the strongest squad by a distance. They can comfortably put out two incredibly solid teams. But their first eleven isn’t mind-blowing. Only Dias and De Bruyne are the clear standouts in their positions in England - let alone Europe. The fact that they’ve spent £50m net more than United and are lightyears ahead is due to good management (both from Pep and City preparing for his arrival for years).

Pep is never going to manage some crappy team with no money just to prove a point. I can’t say that I would either.

The great thing about football is we have Peps... but also Klopps and Simeones. A Wenger or Ferguson (with Aberdeen). And every now and then a Ranieri or a Clough.

Winning against all odds requires brilliance. Consistently winning with huge resources and the corresponding pressure that accompanies that requires a different type of brilliance. Football provides it all.
 

kaiser1

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I don't think anyone else in the league has spent over £400 million on defender's alone. He's a good manager, but is overrated. This is the same Pep who said he would rather bring players through the academy that spend outrageous amounts in transfers.
Does it matter if one club spent their money on defenders alone and the other spent on midfielders or attackers?
Other clubs spent yet he is the one dominating the league

If the case against him was about comments he made then this is sounding very desperate,

Mourinho once said he doesn't value the Europa cup
Klopp once said
"Other clubs can go out and spend money and collect top players. I want to do it differently. I would even do it differently if I could spend that money."
 

el3mel

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Agreed, but as I said: what I'm saying is that he wasn't exactly picking up a dud squad, was he? Some make out like he was left with an impossible job after Rijkaard and worked miracles which just isn't right.

On an unrelated note, did Yaya really play CB against us in the final?! Did not remember that. That is peak Pep.
No one said the squad was a disaster.

At the same time no one also was thinking in 2008 that Pep inherited the greatest squad in history. They were called this after Pep's first year.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Zidane has won the Champions League with Real numerous times, but nobody actually really thinks he is a great coach or that his achievements when put into context of what he was working with were that great.
This conclusion is just as terrible as the conclusion that Guardiola is a bad manager.

Don't even think about the Champions League. Zidane won 2 league titles in 4 full seasons at the club. Pellegrini, Mourinho, Ancelotti won 1 league title combined in 6 seasons.
 
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PepG

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The best managers in the world right now are Pep, Zidane, Klopp, Conte, Tuchel and Flick so i am surprised there are still people who have doubts about Zizou's qualities as a coach.
 

Maluco

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He wasn’t handed the greatest squad in history. They had just finished the season empty handed, 18 points behind the Champions. In fact, they were ten points behind Villarreal.

The improvement with Pep was an additional 20 points to take them to the title. Plus the next five trophies on offer -including the Champions League. Pep didn’t make a marginal difference - that is night and day by any reasonable metric.

He did take over a team with some great players in it withthat he moulded into arguably the greatest side ever. To downplay that would be like saying anyone could have replicated Ferguson’s achievements with the Class of 92.

Not to mention the fact that he personally developed some of their academy kids during his tenure as Manager of Barca B.

After that he’s managed at clubs where he’s expected to win trophies. And has done so.

City have the strongest squad by a distance. They can comfortably put out two incredibly solid teams. But their first eleven isn’t mind-blowing. Only Dias and De Bruyne are the clear standouts in their positions in England - let alone Europe. The fact that they’ve spent £50m net more than United and are lightyears ahead is due to good management (both from Pep and City preparing for his arrival for years).

Pep is never going to manage some crappy team with no money just to prove a point. I can’t say that I would either.

The great thing about football is we have Peps... but also Klopps and Simeones. A Wenger or Ferguson (with Aberdeen). And every now and then a Ranieri or a Clough.

Winning against all odds requires brilliance. Consistently winning with huge resources and the corresponding pressure that accompanies that requires a different type of brilliance. Football provides it all.
No one is denying this, I don’t think. But it’s not all that brilliant. It is quite impressive, but he should be winning the league and the league cup with a squad that can rotate players in and out with ease and maintain their quality in every minute of every match of every season.

It is “brilliant” on a far lesser scale than what Ferguson and Clough achieved. Barcelona was brilliant. Everything after that is just “very good”
 

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No one said the squad was a disaster.

At the same time no one also was thinking in 2008 that Pep inherited the greatest squad in history. They were called this after Pep's first year.
Actually not after his first year, particularly as that CL was heavily tainted by their farcical semifinal victory.

What made them look like the greatest ever squad in hindsight was Spain going on to win two more international tournaments back-to-back and Messi proving himself as a genuine GOAT contender.

None of Pique Puyol Xavi Iniesta were as highly rated in 2008 as they were afterwards. Same goes for Messi, even though it was obvious he was something special by then.
 

Sandikan

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He wasn’t handed the greatest squad in history. They had just finished the season empty handed, 18 points behind the Champions. In fact, they were ten points behind Villarreal.

The improvement with Pep was an additional 20 points to take them to the title. Plus the next five trophies on offer -including the Champions League. Pep didn’t make a marginal difference - that is night and day by any reasonable metric.

He did take over a team with some great players in it withthat he moulded into arguably the greatest side ever. To downplay that would be like saying anyone could have replicated Ferguson’s achievements with the Class of 92.

Not to mention the fact that he personally developed some of their academy kids during his tenure as Manager of Barca B.

After that he’s managed at clubs where he’s expected to win trophies. And has done so.

City have the strongest squad by a distance. They can comfortably put out two incredibly solid teams. But their first eleven isn’t mind-blowing. Only Dias and De Bruyne are the clear standouts in their positions in England - let alone Europe. The fact that they’ve spent £50m net more than United and are lightyears ahead is due to good management (both from Pep and City preparing for his arrival for years).

Pep is never going to manage some crappy team with no money just to prove a point. I can’t say that I would either.

The great thing about football is we have Peps... but also Klopps and Simeones. A Wenger or Ferguson (with Aberdeen). And every now and then a Ranieri or a Clough.

Winning against all odds requires brilliance. Consistently winning with huge resources and the corresponding pressure that accompanies that requires a different type of brilliance. Football provides it all.
Pep has done brilliantly yes.
But you, as do a lot of Pep fans, overlook that he picked up one hell of a set of players when he got here.

De Bruyne, Sterling, D Silva, Aguero, Kompany and probably a couple of others too.
That's one heck of a base to then spend like you say, even more than United have done.
 

PepG

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Actually not after his first year, particularly as that CL was heavily tainted by their farcical semifinal victory.

What made them look like the greatest ever squad in hindsight was Spain going on to win two more international tournaments back-to-back and Messi proving himself as a genuine GOAT contender.

None of Pique Puyol Xavi Iniesta were as highly rated in 2008 as they were afterwards. Same goes for Messi, even though it was obvious he was something special by then.
Actually what made that Barca team the best ever was the way they play and dominate against weaker and stronger teams. At times i will say at most times they were unplayable. The trophies won were just the consequence of this level of dominance.
 

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Zidane has won the Champions League with Real numerous times, but nobody actually really thinks he is a great coach or that his achievements when put into context of what he was working with were that great.

But he didn't win that game did he?

In fact the most expensive squad in world football with the best paid manager resorted to the old Stoke tactics of long balls and long throws to try and salvage the game.

I'm not saying he's not a great coach, just that his achievements are overstated.
Erm, plenty of people think Zidane is a great coach including me, and his achievements in winning 3 CLs in a row (and 2 La Liga titles) when put into any context are extraordinary. I’m not sure what you’re talking about here.
 

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I don't think anyone else in the league has spent over £400 million on defender's alone. He's a good manager, but is overrated. This is the same Pep who said he would rather bring players through the academy that spend outrageous amounts in transfers.
He’s actually by common consensus one of the greatest managers of all time, not just a ‘good manager.’ Which doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for him to be overrated, but let’s use the proper terms here. A ‘good’ manager would be someone like Graham Potter.
 

Daydreamer

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No one is denying this, I don’t think. But it’s not all that brilliant. It is quite impressive, but he should be winning the league and the league cup with a squad that can rotate players in and out with ease and maintain their quality in every minute of every match of every season.

It is “brilliant” on a far lesser scale than what Ferguson and Clough achieved. Barcelona was brilliant. Everything after that is just “very good”
That’s a fair take. He has no achievements like theirs and probably never will. Ferguson worked miracles with Aberdeen and then moved on to the high expectations that come with managing a huge club. The stars aligned for to Guardiola skip that step, so we’ll never know if he was capable of it.

I’m a newbie, so as this is my last post of the day I won’t be able to reply. But in this thread and others I keep seeing mention made of how much Pep spends on his defence (particularly full backs). I’m genuinely curious - why does this matter?

I understand pointing out that he’s a chequebook manager. By why does it matter where he’s decides to strengthen his squad?

Firstly, it’s strange coming from fans of a team whose defence cost over £300m to assemble. But I also find it interesting in general.

It reminds me of Carragher’s statement that “no one wants to grow up to be Gary Neville”. Do we underrate the importance of certain positions in this country? Do we prefer the individual contributions of a few (very expensive) star players to the collective performance of many (quite expensive) signings?
 

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This conclusion is just as terrible as the conclusion that Guardiola is a bad manager.

Don't even think about the Champions League. Zidane won 2 league titles in 4 full seasons at the club. Pellegrini, Mourinho, Ancelotti won 1 league title combined in 6 seasons.
Never said Pep is bad manager, l think he is a great coach. Just that his achievements are over stated, eapecially when you consider the teams and the money he has spent.

With Zidane, The CL run was something else, but you look at the team he had there already prepared for him. Yeah they won 3 Cl titles, but with the money that was spent and the players that were there, it's hardly a miracle that they won them. And add in league titles in a two horse league where the other horse decided to chop one of it's own legs off. Wow, what a modern day flipping miracle worker.

How did the great Zidane cope on his return? How's his record in the transfer market? Is it better than Peps?
 

Maluco

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That’s a fair take. He has no achievements like theirs and probably never will. Ferguson worked miracles with Aberdeen and then moved on to the high expectations that come with managing a huge club. The stars aligned for to Guardiola skip that step, so we’ll never know if he was capable of it.

I’m a newbie, so as this is my last post of the day I won’t be able to reply. But in this thread and others I keep seeing mention made of how much Pep spends on his defence (particularly full backs). I’m genuinely curious - why does this matter?

I understand pointing out that he’s a chequebook manager. By why does it matter where he’s decides to strengthen his squad?

Firstly, it’s strange coming from fans of a team whose defence cost over £300m to assemble. But I also find it interesting in general.

It reminds me of Carragher’s statement that “no one wants to grow up to be Gary Neville”. Do we underrate the importance of certain positions in this country? Do we prefer the individual contributions of a few (very expensive) star players to the collective performance of many (quite expensive) signings?
Well, I always compare it to the most recent manager to defeat Pep over a league season, Klopp.

He got the good fortune of the Coutinho sale and had one pop at bringing in the right talent to tie everything together and win silverware. He did just that, one big chance, and he hit it out of the park with Alisson and van Dijk. Before that, that tire of player (50 million+) wasn’t really a target for someone like him.

Guadiola got it wrong, wrong, and wrong again before this season. Yes, he still won titles, but his squad and attacking talent would win anyone titles. Not with the same verve or style, but they would certainly have been won in my opinion.

He is praised for the Dias signing when it is his 8th 40 million Euro + defensive signing since he joined the club.

People will talk about his need to rebuild, but they had just bought Otamendi before that too for a similar value.

It is obscene by any metric and to write it off just by comparing them to the completely inept and incompetent competition down the road, doesn’t make it any less obscene.

Bring in some youth, have a healthy squad balance, pick out a young gem and develop them, anything!

There are other ways to compete at the very top without spending almost a billion.

What he is achieved is par for the course at that price.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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How did the great Zidane cope on his return?
His Real Madrid team got the most points out of anyone in La Liga in the two full seasons he managed, and he won one of the only three league titles RM have won since 2008.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Yes, he still won titles, but his squad and attacking talent would win anyone titles. Not with the same verve or style, but they would certainly have been won in my opinion. He is praised for the Dias signing when it is his 8th 40 million Euro + defensive signing since he joined the club.
His squad would have won titles with anyone, so he doesn't deserve credit for winning the titles. But he also doesn't deserve credit for assembling the squad that would win titles for anyone, because he has money.
 

el3mel

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Never said Pep is bad manager, l think he is a great coach. Just that his achievements are over stated, eapecially when you consider the teams and the money he has spent.

With Zidane, The CL run was something else, but you look at the team he had there already prepared for him. Yeah they won 3 Cl titles, but with the money that was spent and the players that were there, it's hardly a miracle that they won them. And add in league titles in a two horse league where the other horse decided to chop one of it's own legs off. Wow, what a modern day flipping miracle worker.

How did the great Zidane cope on his return? How's his record in the transfer market? Is it better than Peps?
It's an absolute miracle that Madrid won 3 CL titles in a row. If defending your title was that easy why no other team in modern football managed to achieve it ? Bayern who were the title defender and the best team in the world last season got KOed from QF this year.

And yes, Zidane in his second stent did great, won the league and challenged for the next one till the final week, and reached CL semi.

Zidane is a great manager and a lot of people view him as such. Claiming that "no one views him as a great manager" just because you think so is a terrible take.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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The debate about Guardiola's time at City is futile because it ultimately boils down to a belief that the Manchester City project is illegitimate. The goalposts are always shifting because the conclusion is already fixed.
 

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The debate about Guardiola's time at City is futile because it ultimately boils down to a belief that the Manchester City project is illegitimate. The goalposts are always shifting because the conclusion is already fixed.
Absolutely. Even if he’d won the champions league with City they wouldn’t give him any credit, they’d say “well he’s spent the most petro dollars by far so he should be winning the champions league.” Let’s not pretend otherwise.
 

Oranges038

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It's an absolute miracle that Madrid won 3 CL titles in a row. If defending your title was that easy why no other team in modern football managed to achieve it ? Bayern who were the title defender and the best team in the world last season got KOed from QF this year.

And yes, Zidane in his second stent did great, won the league and challenged for the next one till the final week, and reached CL semi.

Zidane is a great manager and a lot of people view him as such. Claiming that "no one views him as a great manager" just because you think so is a terrible take.
Don't think he's terrible. But it's not a miracle, that team was packed with world class talent all over the pitch.

I just don't think he's great, in time I doubt he will be viewed as a great manager.
 

acnumber9

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Peps main starting 11 this season

Ederson Walker Stones Diaz Cancelo Rodri Gundogan Kdb Foden Mahrez Silva

He only inherited KdB
Raheem Sterling started 28 league games but isn’t part of the main starting 11?
 

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Don't think he's terrible. But it's not a miracle, that team was packed with world class talent all over the pitch.

I just don't think he's great, in time I doubt he will be viewed as a great manager.
Of course he will, how can you possible dispute that? He’ll go down as one of the great all round football figures, like Cruyff or Beckenbauer.
 

Oranges038

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Of course he will, how can you possible dispute that? He’ll go down as one of the great all round football figures, like Cruyff or Beckenbauer.
He won't, unless he does something more other than win a few trophies with Real.
 

Maluco

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His squad would have won titles with anyone, so he doesn't deserve credit for winning the titles. But he also doesn't deserve credit for assembling the squad that would win titles for anyone, because he has money.
He was backed more than any other, to the tune of nearly 1 billion pounds. What skillful team building are we applauding?
 

el3mel

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Don't think he's terrible. But it's not a miracle, that team was packed with world class talent all over the pitch.

I just don't think he's great, in time I doubt he will be viewed as a great manager.
A lot of teams were packed with world class talent all over the pitch and failed to defend their CL title. Hell, even Pep's Barca failed to defend their title. Madrid didn't just manage to defend their title once but twice.
 

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The debate about Guardiola's time at City is futile because it ultimately boils down to a belief that the Manchester City project is illegitimate. The goalposts are always shifting because the conclusion is already fixed.
It is not only because people hates City here, it is because Pep is seen as a potential contender to the GOAT throne that United fans think belongs to Fergie, while discounting the likes of Sacchi and Clough btw.

It is obvious, point out a flaw of Fergie’s record here, as compared to Pep or lately Zidane, you will get witchhunted by folks who do not even have the ability to debate except via Ad Hominem.

They just refuse to acknowledge it as Fergie is their god and savior, but they do not know how to whitewash the said flaws, so they turn to logical fallacies.

Yet they have the cheek to laugh at RAWK or Bluemoon, ironic isn’t it
 

amolbhatia50k

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It is not only because people hates City here, it is because Pep is seen as a potential contender to the GOAT throne that United fans think belongs to Fergie, while discounting the likes of Sacchi and Clough btw.

It is obvious, point out a flaw of Fergie’s record here, as compared to Pep or lately Zidane, you will get witchhunted by folks who do not even have the ability to debate except via Ad Hominem.

They just refuse to acknowledge it as Fergie is their god and savior, but they do not know how to whitewash the said flaws, so they turn to logical fallacies.

Yet they have the cheek to laugh at RAWK or Bluemoon, ironic isn’t it
It's pretty much as much if not more the other way around. Point out one flaw in Pep's managerial abilities/record and the fan bois start hyperventilating as if it's incomprehensible.
 

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It's an absolute miracle that Madrid won 3 CL titles in a row. If defending your title was that easy why no other team in modern football managed to achieve it ?
Because no other side had such brilliant players apart from early 2010s Barcelona, who managed to get knocked out by mighty Inter as well as by ten-man Chelsea after leading on aggregate. If they had a half-competent cup manager, they would have done it before Real did.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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He was backed more than any other, to the tune of nearly 1 billion pounds. What skillful team building are we applauding?
The part where you identify and pick solid players that'll fit your squad.

For all the money City have spent, they only have 1 player on the list of top 25 most expensive transfers (at 25). They have six players total on the top 50 list, all of whom have contributed to their success. Meanwhile, most other clubs that have a decent presence on the list have a bunch of questionable or failed transfers up there. United have four transfers in the top 25, two of them are considered failures (Di Maria, Lukaku) and two are qualified successes (Pogba, Maguire).

What are we to make of this?

1. We can simply take the transfer fees at face value and not pass judgment on the players' performances. That would suggest that City's squad is not full of the absolute best players in the world. They have a balanced squad instead, solid everywhere. Meanwhile, other clubs, which presumably have less money, put more of it onto single purchases. This must mean they're doing a good job.

2. We can look at the transfer fees relative to the players' actual performances. This would suggest that City have a better track record at the transfer market than other top teams. This must mean they're doing a good job.

The money argument is just an endless, shifting goalpost. See, we can look at Guardiola making a lot of defensive signings, and if they aren't working, we say "Guardiola is fecking up here, he's spent all this money and he can't fix his defense." However, if the defense starts working, then all we have to do is turn around and say "well of course the defense is working, he spent all that money on it!"
 
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stefan92

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The part where you identify and pick solid players that'll fit your squad.

For all the money City have spent, they only have 1 player on the list of top 25 most expensive transfers (at 25). They have six players total on the top 50 list, all of whom have contributed to their success. Meanwhile, most other clubs that have a decent presence on the list have a bunch of questionable or failed transfers up there. United have four transfers in the top 25, two of them are considered failures (Di Maria, Lukaku) and two are qualified successes (Pogba, Maguire).

What are we to make of this?

1. We can simply take the transfer fees at face value and not pass judgment on the players' performances. That would suggest that City's squad is not full of the absolute best players in the world. They have a balanced squad instead, solid everywhere. Meanwhile, other clubs, which presumably have less money, put more of it onto single purchases. This must mean they're doing a good job.

2. We can look at the transfer fees relative to the players' actual performances. This would suggest that City have a better track record at the transfer market than other top teams. This must mean they're doing a good job.

The money argument is just an endless, shifting goalpost. See, we can look at Guardiola making a lot of defensive signings, and if they aren't working, we say "Guardiola is fecking up here, he's spent all this money and he can't fix his defense." However, if the defense starts working, then all we have to do is turn around and say "well of course the defense is working, he spent all that money on it!"
This discussion about his money spend is not "shifting goalposts", it is actually quite straightforward. You look at the amount he spend and the improvement he got for his squad, and we see that this is good as he has probably the best squad in the PL, but not impressive as a lot of his signings did not really qualify as a success. It doesn't really matter how expensive single players are for this argument, when he can find world class for less than the most expensive fees that's nice, but when he tries to get better CBs, spends a lot, but not the most extreme money on half a dozen failures (failures as in: did not really improve the squad) it is fair to criticize him for that.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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Pep is probably the tactically greatest manager we have seen. Also good at man management, but SAF is one level above in that regard. For squad building he is decent, but not SAF level.
In terms of improving players technically and tactically Pep is the mastermind.

I feel give that City squad to most other PL managers and they would fail since the team suits Pep tactics most of all.
Although give them Peps money and they could have built a different world class squad.
 

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Pep is probably the tactically greatest manager we have seen. Also good at man management, but SAF is one level above in that regard. For squad building he is decent, but not SAF level.
In terms of improving players technically and tactically Pep is the mastermind.

I feel give that City squad to most other PL managers and they would fail since the team suits Pep tactics most of all.
Although give them Peps money and they could have built a different world class squad.
I' agree with everything you said bar the bolded part.
In general, yes, he's a great tactician but, in the big games, when it counts, we have seen times and times again that he's overdoing it.
 

NasirTimothy

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He won't, unless he does something more other than win a few trophies with Real.
With all due respect, are you crazy?! A few trophies with Real Madrid? He has the most Champions League wins in the entire history of the competition. I mean going back to 1955. Tied with Paisley and Ancelotti. I guess they’re average managers as well. I guess it was their squads that did it too, nothing to do with them. After all, it was Shankly that built the Liverpool we know, not Paisley, so Paisley is clearly not a great manager.

I mean Zidane has won the trophy more than any other Madrid manager and as another poster pointed out, he’s been their most successful manager in the league for some time as well. I don’t think you quite understand the significance of his achievements to be quite honest.
 

Hound Dog

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With all due respect, are you crazy?! A few trophies with Real Madrid? He has the most Champions League wins in the entire history of the competition. I mean going back to 1955. Tied with Paisley and Ancelotti. I guess they’re average managers as well. I guess it was their squads that did it too, nothing to do with them. After all, it was Shankly that built the Liverpool we know, not Paisley, so Paisley is clearly not a great manager.

I mean Zidane has won the trophy more than any other Madrid manager and as another poster pointed out, he’s been their most successful manager in the league for some time as well. I don’t think you quite understand the significance of his achievements to be quite honest.
I am genuinely asking, how do you rate Rijkaard and Di Matteo?
 

NasirTimothy

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I am genuinely asking, how do you rate Rijkaard and Di Matteo?
Rijkaard at his best was a very good coach. Di Matteo was an Ok coach who got lucky, right place, right time. Neither won the Champions league 3 seasons in a row though so I don’t understand the point of your question?
 

NasirTimothy

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Because no other side had such brilliant players apart from early 2010s Barcelona, who managed to get knocked out by mighty Inter as well as by ten-man Chelsea after leading on aggregate. If they had a half-competent cup manager, they would have done it before Real did.
A half-competent cup manager that has to date won 14 cups, including two CLs. The same number of CLs as Hitzfeld, SAF, Del Bosque, Mourinho, Sacchi and Heynckes. A whole bunch of ‘incompetent’ cup managers it would seem. Seriously, the nonsense that gets talked on here……