Perspective

[Revan]

So you'd made your mind up before he was appointed, anything he does won't be good enough for you regardless.

First part is correct. If Chelsea/City would have hired Moyes I would have laughed with them and rule them out of the title race.

The second part isn't. I would love to prove me wrong. But if he does anything even worse than expected (on already low expectations) than of course he won't be good enough for me.

Also, you have no idea where we'll finish this season, don't act like you actually do.

I am not an oracle but you don't need to be to predict when we'll finish. All of our teams are playing significantly better than us. The question is if we'll finish below or above Spurs and Everton. Arsenal, Chelsea, City and Liverpool will finish all above us, and we'll lose more points than them.

Only two weeks ago the mood here was that we're back on the title race. Since then we have won only 2 points when the minimum we should have won was 7.

I don't subscribe to the "next manager please" merry go round going on at Chelsea, which is what you appear to be suggesting with your "one season and just one season" approach, it's incredibly short-sighted. All managers need time, not even half a season isn't enough time to judge a person, one season will only give you half an idea. Moyes hasn't had the best start to his United career and there are a lot of reasons for that, some of the blame even lies with himself, undoubtedly. He's got to have time to learn and settle into the role though and if you're convinced that you've already given it him you're undoubtedly one of the stupidest people I've ever spoke to regarding football, and my best mate's a scouser.

Neither me. I don't also subscribe to the idea of keeping an average manager for long despite he is doing a mare job because he suddenly turn out to be good. Will Liverpool be good if they gave time to Hodgson? Juve to Ferrara? Madrid to Ramos?

All managers need time? I can see good managers doing well in this short time they had (similar to Moyes). Pep is doing excellent with Bayern. Mourinho is doing alright with Chelsea, as is Pellegrini with City, or Ancelotti with Madrid, or Blank with PSG.

Heck, Martinez is doing excellently with a team that is going into a similar transition like us. Like in United, all Everton players have played for Everton under a single manager who was as much powerful on Everton as SAF to us. Yet they are playing better than they have ever played under Moyes.

If you asked me for my opinion right now I would say "We've not had the best start, Moyes has a lot to improve on, as do the players. I wouldn't be able to judge the season until it's actually over though". I'm not praising the team at the moment but I'm not being a twat about the side I love either.

Ferguson told you to support the new manager, that doesn't mean a couple of games, that means give him fecking time.

'We've not had the best start' is incredibly biased. I watch us regularly since 2001-2002 and we have had the worst start on both poins and performances on all these years. This is much worse than 'we've not had the best start'.

Ferguson forget the word 'right' before the word 'manager'. Anyway, I don't care for this point at all. It's not that Ferguson never did any mistake, he did plentey. He said that Bebe is a 20 goal per season striker, he signed Young in order to catch up with Barca, he said that Cleverley and Welbeck are on the level of Thiago, he said that Allardyce is a top proven manager (all from his last book). What makes you think that this particular decision may not be wrong?

 

[Revan]

Didn't we lose at home to Everton last year too?

Everton under Moyes hasn't won a single away game against United, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool.

 

[Alock1]

I must admit, I find these threads that pop up telling people to calm down, head high, chip up etc.etc. as annoying and pointless as the threads that say we are doomed and fighting for 8th place.

 

[Alock1]

All managers need time? I can see good managers doing well in this short time they had (similar to Moyes). Pep is doing excellent with Bayern. Mourinho is doing alright with Chelsea, as is Pellegrini with City, or Ancelotti with Madrid, or Blank with PSG.

Pellegrini with City and Mourinho with Chelsea aren't doing that great - really. Better than us though.

That isn't really the point I wanted to make; but is there much to suggest that short term success (less than half a season) has any indication in the long term? So, so many managers start well but lack answers when things go wrong, and ultimately get sacked. I'm not saying that starting badly is a sign that things will go good, and starting well is a sign things will go bad - but simply that there isn't much value there as an indication at all.

Plus, we're in such a unique situation that the normal 'rules' don't necessarily apply to us anyway.

 

[nimic]

I for one welcome a season of mediocrity if it means getting rid of a few plastics. We'll be challenging next year if not this one still.

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. You're essentially saying you care more about getting "one over" the plastics than the health and success of the club.

Idiocy.

 

[Tomalonge]

'We've not had the best start' is incredibly biased. I watch us regularly since 2001-2002 and we have had the worst start on both poins and performances on all these years. This is much worse than 'we've not had the best start'.

I stopped here and disregarded the rest of your post. Sorry, but you've got hard times ahead.

I've been watching United since '91, this isn't the worst we've been, not by a long way.

We dropped stupid points that we shouldn't under Ferguson every season, we will with Moyes too. It's all part of the game. Believe it or not even Fergie didn't win the league every year, and he needed time at first to get rid of the deadwood just like Moyes.

There are far too many players that aren't good enough or lack the desire which Fergie could instil in them. If you want to blame anyone it's the players at the moment, they don't have to give 100%, because if we lose everyone blames Moyes. I can count all the players willing to fight for a result on one hand, don't you think it's a bit too easy to go "Nah, it's because the manager is shit"?

 

[RoadTrip]

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. You're essentially saying you care more about getting "one over" the plastics than the health and success of the club.

Idiocy.

Not to mention, when we start winning again, they'll all come back... Thus, achieves absolutely nothing in the end.

 

[Revan]

Pellegrini with City and Mourinho with Chelsea aren't doing that great - really. Better than us though.

That isn't really the point I wanted to make; but is there much to suggest that short term success (less than half a season) has any indication in the long term? So, so many managers start well but lack answers when things go wrong, and ultimately get sacked. I'm not saying that starting badly is a sign that things will go good, and starting well is a sign things will go bad - but simply that there isn't much value there as an indication at all.

Plus, we're in such a unique situation that the normal 'rules' don't necessarily apply to us anyway.

Both of them are doing well enough and are in competition for the first place. Add to that, Chelsea have a worse squad than us.

To be fair, if one of the top managers would have been here instead of Moyes, the expectations would be higher but also people would have thought that they'll turn out to be good, because they have proven it on the past. Moyes doesn't have that, and to make things even worse he has done everything that was expected from his doubters. Sign Fellaini, try to sing Baines, makes us even more reliant on wings, hoof the ball more than ever, play defensive players in attacking position, make priority not to lose instead of trying to win. Pretty much everything he did at Everton.

I think that the normal rules should apply to us. Just that we had Sir Alex as manager doesn't makes us a divine club. Neither it will transform an average manager to an excellent one.

 

[nimic]

Not to mention, when we start winning again, they'll all come back... Thus, achieves absolutely nothing in the end.

Nothing except his brief triumphant moment of "hah, you're not real fans!"

 

[Revan]

I stopped here and disregarded the rest of your post. Sorry, but you've got hard times ahead.

I've been watching United since '91, this isn't the worst we've been, not by a long way.

I can't speak for the times when I was too young to watch us regularly. It is definitely the worst in the last 12 years though

We dropped stupid points that we shouldn't under Ferguson every season, we will with Moyes too. It's all part of the game. Believe it or not even Fergie didn't win the league every year, and he needed time at first to get rid of the deadwood just like Moyes.

Did I said that Moyes should win the title every season? Did I said that we should never drop points?

Forget the title, it will be a miracle if we get the fourth spot this season (which in itself is an under-achievement). From the majority of people here, Moyes is getting judged (in their heads) compared to the minimum expectations they had (4th spot), and Moyes is short even there. We all laughed at Raphael Honingstein for saying that we won't finish in top 4, calling him a retard. Let's not act now that if we won't finish on top 4 it's still ok. It isn't. It is even worse if we'll go out of the fight for the fourth spot before the New Year.

There are far too many players that aren't good enough or lack the desire which Fergie could instil in them. If you want to blame anyone it's the players at the moment, they don't have to give 100%, because if we lose everyone blames Moyes. I can count all the players willing to fight for a result on one hand, don't you think it's a bit too easy to go "Nah, it's because the manager is shit"?

I think that one of the manager's most important part of the job is to ensure that the players will give their best. For whatever reasons they are not doing it, be it they don't have faith on him, because he is overtraining him or because they are not suited to hoof the ball tactics. Again, he is at fault here.

 

[Alock1]

Both of them are doing well enough and are in competition for the first place. Add to that, Chelsea have a worse squad than us.

To be fair, if one of the top managers would have been here instead of Moyes, the expectations would be higher but also people would have thought that they'll turn out to be good, because they have proven it on the past. Moyes doesn't have that, and to make things even worse he has done everything that was expected from his doubters. Sign Fellaini, try to sing Baines, makes us even more reliant on wings, hoof the ball more than ever, play defensive players in attacking position, make priority not to lose instead of trying to win. Pretty much everything he did at Everton.

I think that the normal rules should apply to us. Just that we had Sir Alex as manager doesn't makes us a divine club. Neither it will transform an average manager to an excellent one.

Did they expect him to go for Fabregas too? To blood Januzaj into the team?

The same applies both ways though.. just because we had Sir Alex as manager who turned our squad into title winners, that doesn't mean that another (even an excellent one) could do it.

A lot of people believe Chelsea have a better team/squad to us by the way, especially non-United fans - very subjective indeed.

 

[Tomalonge]

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. You're essentially saying you care more about getting "one over" the plastics than the health and success of the club.

Idiocy.

If that's what I meant I wouldn't have said that we'll be back challenging soon enough. feck off with your agenda. I've been a United fan all my life and of course I want the team to do well, it'd be nice though to get a bit of peace and quiet from the gimps who aren't in the slightest bit realistic with their expectations.

We've overachieved for years with Sir Alex, and I've loved every minute of it. Of course I'd prefer us to keep that going, every single time. But seeing as we're not right now people are going to have to lower their expectations for a while. Tough shit folks, it's a transition and Moyes is going to be here for at least a couple of seasons. A change of management will 80% of the time mean we have to get worse to get better, but following Fergie I'd change that percentage to 100%. Did anyone honestly expect it to be business as usual? Would Mourinho have us battering the league right now? No. Klopp wouldn't either. Ancelotti would do alright I think but we didn't appoint him.

And I'd welcome the loss of the glory-hunters, not the actual losing. Rub those brain cells together, it might help you understand shit.

 

[Revan]

Did they expect him to go for Fabregas too? To blood Januzaj into the team?

The same applies both ways though.. just because we had Sir Alex as manager who turned our squad into title winners, that doesn't mean that another (even an excellent one) could do it.

A lot of people believe Chelsea have a better team/squad to us by the way, especially non-United fans - very subjective indeed.

Go look at any thread before we hired MOyes and you'll see what people thought there. Now it's only excuses to make him look better, saying that we are shit. To be faired, I am a bit disappointed on 'top reds', they should take the position that we are excellent on everything. Throwing players under the bus in order to argue that the manager is not at fault makes them less 'red'.

Spot on about Januzaj. Have mentioned it several times that (together with the Rooney situation which at the time I wanted him gone) are his only right decisions so far. The Fabregas saga was a farce from day 1.

 

[togg]

well...if you were in the stands last night, paying good money to watch what has become a team that is so disjointed, bereft of ideas with a midfield that doesn't really exist...there is no way you would wake up optimistic this morning. When you are l lamenting the loss of what is bascially a makeshift midfield in Jones, then you really do start to realise what situation we are in!!

....and listening and chatting to all those around me...the feeling was mutual...

 

[Tomalonge]

I can't speak for the times when I was too young to watch us regularly. It is definitely the worst in the last 12 years though

Fair enough, and you can't really help not seeing before it, but it probably would help any argument you have if you have a bit more knowledge, it's not a slight on you but I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from.

Did I said that Moyes should win the title every season? Did I said that we should never drop points?

No you didn't say that directly, but you're throwing your toys out of the pram when the season's not even half done. Anything could happen, we could hit form next game and go on a winning streak. The only thing predictable about football is that football is unpredictable.

Forget the title, it will be a miracle if we get the fourth spot this season (which in itself is an under-achievement). From the majority of people here, Moyes is getting judged (in their heads) compared to the minimum expectations they had (4th spot), and Moyes is short even there. We all laughed at Raphael Honingstein for saying that we won't finish in top 4, calling him a retard. Let's not act now that if we won't finish on top 4 it's still ok. It isn't. It is even worse if we'll go out of the fight for the fourth spot before the New Year.

As long as we challenge in Europe and at least look like the team's heading in any direction by the end of the season I'd grudgingly expect anything better than 6th. It was never going to be an instant process and he's only laying the foundation to build on this season.

I think that one of the manager's most important part of the job is to ensure that the players will give their best. For whatever reasons they are not doing it, be it they don't have faith on him, because he is overtraining him or because they are not suited to hoof the ball tactics. Again, he is at fault here.

He's made mistakes, everyone does. If we're going to sack every manager for making a mistake then we might as well give Abramovich a call to bankroll us. We've played both well and shit under Moyes though. We've yet to hit our stride but just as you've not seen anything encouraging, I've not seen anything to say that we're doomed to mediocrity under Moyes. Not yet anyway, the jury's still out on how he'll do for us, but anyone concluding his career with us already needs to stop playing so much Football Manager. The lifespan of a manager in the premier league is already a joke as it is, we used to laugh at teams for this exact type of reaction, now some of our fans seem to want to contribute to the farce.

 

[Alock1]

The Fabregas saga was a farce, but I feel that is how it was dealt with by Woodward rather than Moyes.

Teams enquire about players who are seemingly to us incredibly unlikely buys all the time - the difference is most don't pursue them, especially so publicly. I have no problem with Moyes identifying him as his first choice though, I'd have picked the same man.

So you believe Rooney and Januzaj have been handled well by Moyes - I agree. Don't you think that those 2 decisions could be far, far more important long term than all the supposedly wrong decisions, bad results etc. that we've seen him make?

I'm not saying Moyes is blameless or has got everything right. But I didn't expect him too either; in management you're learning all the time and constantly making decisions - the learning curve has never been so steep as it is here. The players definitely need to take some responsibility though, as does Woodward, as does Moyes - all of them.

A new manager won't affect Chelsea or City as much as us, even if our squad was considered better than them. A lot of our players have only played under 1 manager or have done for most of their career. I've said in a number of threads, I don't believe our line-ups or tactics have been much different under Moyes than they would have been under Ferguson - I think the players don't have full confidence in him and themselves, and I think the opposition are coming to what is essentially their cup final and playing with a belief that they can beat us right now.

I don't think that's Moyes fault though - that came with the territory of hiring an unproven manager at this level. Mourinho would have commanded respect, authority and installed some confidence without a word said simply because of his history. We accepted (or should have) this when we decided to go for a manager who will be around long term, building for the future.

 

[jem]

Didn't we lose at home to Everton last year too?

I don't get the panic, we're about to hit the second part of the season and we're due a good run. If we're still shit in February then I'll listen. But not to the Moyes out brigade, it's not even his team yet ffs.

I for one welcome a season of mediocrity if it means getting rid of a few plastics. We'll be challenging next year if not this one still.

Thanks for destroying any last shred of optimism I had. Thanks a lot.

 

[Revan]

No you didn't say that directly, but you're throwing your toys out of the pram when the season's not even half done. Anything could happen, we could hit form next game and go on a winning streak. The only thing predictable about football is that football is unpredictable.

Do you really believe that this might be possible. I admire your optimism if you really think this. What is the record of a winning streak of him at Eveton? At United is 2 games in the league.

He's made mistakes, everyone does. If we're going to sack every manager for making a mistake then we might as well give Abramovich a call to bankroll us. We've played both well and shit under Moyes though. We've yet to hit our stride but just as you've not seen anything encouraging, I've not seen anything to say that we're doomed to mediocrity under Moyes. Not yet anyway, the jury's still out on how he'll do for us, but anyone concluding his career with us already needs to stop playing so much Football Manager. The lifespan of a manager in the premier league is already a joke as it is, we used to laugh at teams for this exact type of reaction, now some of our fans seem to want to contribute to the farce.

If only it was a mistake, nobody would have been moaning. He has made a lot more than one though.

 

[Tomalonge]

Do you really believe that this might be possible. I admire your optimism if you really think this. What is the record of a winning streak of him at Eveton? At United is 2 games in the league.

Yes, it's just as possible as going on a run of defeats is, and just as possible as going on a run of draws. I have no idea how many wins he got in a row at Everton but they consistently overperformed. He took them over as relegation fodder when Smith got booted out and kept them in the top half of the table, so he's definitely not shit.

If only it was a mistake, nobody would have been moaning. He has made a lot more than one though.

Yup, so did Fergie.

 

[Alock1]

Do you really believe that this might be possible. I admire your optimism if you really think this. What is the record of a winning streak of him at Eveton? At United is 2 games in the league.

On a more humorous side, every fixture we have this happens with me and numerous people over the course of the week.

'So you reckon you'll beat [insert team name here]?'
'Yeah'
'But, [Fulham Away, Stoke, Spurs, Arsenal, Cardiff Away, Everton, City, Chelsea, Liverpool, (every team we've played)...] is a tough game'
'Yeah but, we're due a win. We're bound to win this one, we can't possibly drop points again'

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I must admit, I find these threads that pop up telling people to calm down, head high, chip up etc.etc. as annoying and pointless as the threads that say we are doomed and fighting for 8th place.

Yes - to an extent I agree. It's inevitable, though. The Caf is a house divided at the moment.

 

[Alock1]

Yes - to an extent I agree. It's inevitable, though. The Caf is a house divided at the moment.

Yeah I guess.

Just accept it - we're in transition. We're definitely not doomed for the long term, there's absolutely nothing to suggest we are based on half a season. 'Yeah but, Liverpool..' means nothing as football was a different sport back then. You could easily argue that United have been the most consistent top club in the world for the last 20 years - Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Juventus, Milan, Inter etc.etc. - they've all had bad seasons/spells.

 

[Revan]

Yes, it's just as possible as going on a run of defeats is, and just as possible as going on a run of draws. I have no idea how many wins he got in a row at Everton but they consistently overperformed. He took them over as relegation fodder when Smith got booted out and kept them in the top half of the table, so he's definitely not shit.

He isn't shit of course not. He is somewhere on the level of Redknapp and Hodgson though.

Yup, so did Fergie.

And a lot of right things.

 

[Revan]

Yeah I guess.

Just accept it - we're in transition. We're definitely not doomed for the long term, there's absolutely nothing to suggest we are based on half a season. 'Yeah but, Liverpool..' means nothing as football was a different sport back then. You could easily argue that United have been the most consistent top club in the world for the last 20 years - Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Juventus, Milan, Inter etc.etc. - they've all had bad seasons/spells.

To be fair, the league was less competitive then so theoritically it would have been more difficult to transform from 'great' to 'shit' back then. We have two teams that have superior finances compared to us, and Liverpool and Spurs many times overspend us. Arsenal has Wenger factor.

I think that now is much more easy to slip then back then and more difficult to turn back in top.

We have definitely been the most consistent team for the last decades or so but that means feck all considering that the most important person of that stability has leave while the other one very important (David Gill) has left us too. The players who were also part of the stability (for the last few years or in Giggs case for the last few decades) are now during the end of their careers. Neither Moyes not Woodward weren't important in our stability. Nor Fellaini.

 

[Tomalonge]

Just accept it - we're in transition. We're definitely not doomed for the long term, there's absolutely nothing to suggest we are based on half a season. 'Yeah but, Liverpool..' means nothing as football was a different sport back then. You could easily argue that United have been the most consistent top club in the world for the last 20 years - Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Juventus, Milan, Inter etc.etc. - they've all had bad seasons/spells.

Very good post.

 

[Siorac]

If that's what I meant I wouldn't have said that we'll be back challenging soon enough. feck off with your agenda. I've been a United fan all my life and of course I want the team to do well, it'd be nice though to get a bit of peace and quiet from the gimps who aren't in the slightest bit realistic with their expectations.

We've overachieved for years with Sir Alex, and I've loved every minute of it. Of course I'd prefer us to keep that going, every single time. But seeing as we're not right now people are going to have to lower their expectations for a while. Tough shit folks, it's a transition and Moyes is going to be here for at least a couple of seasons. A change of management will 80% of the time mean we have to get worse to get better, but following Fergie I'd change that percentage to 100%. Did anyone honestly expect it to be business as usual? Would Mourinho have us battering the league right now? No. Klopp wouldn't either. Ancelotti would do alright I think but we didn't appoint him.

And I'd welcome the loss of the glory-hunters, not the actual losing. Rub those brain cells together, it might help you understand shit.

Expecting to United to finish in the top four isn't unrealistic at all. It can't be stressed enough that we're talking about a squad that got 89 points last season. After 14 games it's on course for 60 points this season.

Manchester United are the biggest club in England. You make it seem like Ferguson turned some plucky little club into serial title winners. No: his big strength was maintaining very high standards over a long period of time and managing several transitions extremely well, rebuilding the team over and over again. It does not mean the club punched above its weight. In recent years he did paper over the cracks and got us trophies despite clear deficiencies in the squad but that wasn't the highlight of his reign: as I said, his most important quality was his ability to maintain high standards over an extended period of time.

Moyes has the same task ahead of him and while it's unreasonable to expect him to start winning trophies straightaway with the current squad, with all its flaws, not finishing in the top four would be absolutely unacceptable. Nobody with any sense would expect us to "batter the league" but there would be no excuse for finishing behind Tottenham or Liverpool - and that's something that looks like it might just happen. Moyes must improve because the current form can't be explained away by "transition", it's simply not good enough for a club of United's stature, considering the quality that we still have.

 

[VP]

"Losing the plastics" hasn't really happened with Liverpool has it? In fact they've retained their plastics and molded them into paranoid, bitter and deluded maniacs.

I think lot of us are in danger of losing perspective the other way with unwavering support of Moyes. This is a hugely important period for the club - rot can set in very quickly. We should be careful that we don't give Moyes too much time just because he was Sir Alex's choice. If at the end of the season we're out of Europe, shown no sign of developing into a world class football team then Moyes has to go surely.

 

[Siorac]

To be fair, the league was less competitive then so theoritically it would have been more difficult to transform from 'great' to 'shit' back then. We have two teams that have superior finances compared to us, and Liverpool and Spurs many times overspend us. Arsenal has Wenger factor.

I think that now is much more easy to slip then back then and more difficult to turn back in top.

We have definitely been the most consistent team for the last decades or so but that means feck all considering that the most important person of that stability has leave while the other one very important (David Gill) has left us too. The players who were also part of the stability (for the last few years or in Giggs case for the last few decades) are now during the end of their careers. Neither Moyes not Woodward weren't important in our stability. Nor Fellaini.

But back then the financial difference between the top clubs and the rest was nowhere near this massive. United's revenue dwarfs every other team's. There are all kinds of "failsafes" in place for the elite clubs.

 

[Tomalonge]

not finishing in the top four would be absolutely unacceptable.

But we haven't finished outside the top four yet.

And for the record, I don't think we will. I think we'll be comfortably in the top four come May, maybe even challenging already.

 

[Alock1]

But back then the financial difference between the top clubs and the rest was nowhere near this massive. United's revenue dwarfs every other team's. There are all kinds of "failsafes" in place for the elite clubs.

Yep, this is my point. Due to the nature of football now in terms of finances, teams can survive bad periods and somehow often seem to come out stronger for it.

For United to not be in the Champions League next season is only unthinkable and devastating for us because of our consistency over the last 20 years. Other teams (Bayern and Juventus most recently) have missed out on it, look where they are today.

I'm not saying it'd be good, it'd of course be very disappointing. But I'd be confident that the season after we'd be back in it again.

 

[Siorac]

But we haven't finished outside the top four yet.

And for the record, I don't think we will. I think we'll be comfortably in the top four come May, maybe even challenging already.

If so, I'll be happy to see Moyes continue.

Right now it looks very, very bleak though and I think it's natural for fans to be concerned. I guess we can cling to the fact that Moyes' Everton sides were usually better in the second half of the season.

 

[Mainoldo]

If that's what I meant I wouldn't have said that we'll be back challenging soon enough. feck off with your agenda. I've been a United fan all my life and of course I want the team to do well, it'd be nice though to get a bit of peace and quiet from the gimps who aren't in the slightest bit realistic with their expectations.

We've overachieved for years with Sir Alex, and I've loved every minute of it. Of course I'd prefer us to keep that going, every single time. But seeing as we're not right now people are going to have to lower their expectations for a while. Tough shit folks, it's a transition and Moyes is going to be here for at least a couple of seasons. A change of management will 80% of the time mean we have to get worse to get better, but following Fergie I'd change that percentage to 100%. Did anyone honestly expect it to be business as usual? Would Mourinho have us battering the league right now? No. Klopp wouldn't either. Ancelotti would do alright I think but we didn't appoint him.

And I'd welcome the loss of the glory-hunters, not the actual losing. Rub those brain cells together, it might help you understand shit.

We didnt overachieve mate. We have been rightfully where we should have been. SAF would have told you so himself. I still don't understand how we can all of a sudden enter a decline, not a transition after being champions the previous season.

Your last sentence is just one of idiocy. I tell what do us a favour and go support west ham their fans have the same expectations as yourself. I don't get why anyone who shows concern is considered a glory hunter.

 

[Tomalonge]

If so, I'll be happy to see Moyes continue.

Right now it looks very, very bleak though and I think it's natural for fans to be concerned. I guess we can cling to the fact that Moyes' Everton sides were usually better in the second half of the season.

Concern is absolutely fine! Understandable at the moment too, I respect that.

It's the people who are so sure we're doomed to fail if we don't feck Moyes off now that are getting on my wick.

 

[Tomalonge]

We didnt overachieve mate. We have been rightfully where we should have been. SAF would have told you so himself. I still don't understand how we can all of a sudden enter a decline, not a transition after being champions the previous season.

Your last sentence is just one of idiocy. I tell what do us a favour and go support west ham their fans have the same expectations as yourself. I don't get why anyone who shows concern is considered a glory hunter.

Go support West Ham?

feck off, I live in Manchester and have been a United fan all my life. You can jog on now.

 

[nimic]

And I'd welcome the loss of the glory-hunters, not the actual losing. Rub those brain cells together, it might help you understand shit.

Perhaps you ought to write down a summary of what you write somewhere so you don't contradict yourself half an hour later.

You wouldn't welcome "the actual losing"? You just said you would welcome a season of mediocrity. What do you imagine mediocrity entails? You also talk about "being realistic", but then you imagine some wet dream where we're mediocre for a season, which somehow gets rid of all the "plastics", before we magically become good again. Oh, and all of that without the "plastics" coming back. Any good team will have plastics, but maybe you should be more focused on the club than how inferior some fans are.

 

[Revan]

But we haven't finished outside the top four yet.

And for the record, I don't think we will. I think we'll be comfortably in the top four come May, maybe even challenging already.

Are you religious Tomalonge? Cause this is completely blind faith. We are 5 points behind the fourth (and fifth) team in the league and have played worse than either of those teams, have a much worse goal-difference then them and both of them have defeated us.

 

[Comsmit]

If that's what I meant I wouldn't have said that we'll be back challenging soon enough. feck off with your agenda. I've been a United fan all my life and of course I want the team to do well, it'd be nice though to get a bit of peace and quiet from the gimps who aren't in the slightest bit realistic with their expectations.

We've overachieved for years with Sir Alex, and I've loved every minute of it. Of course I'd prefer us to keep that going, every single time. But seeing as we're not right now people are going to have to lower their expectations for a while. Tough shit folks, it's a transition and Moyes is going to be here for at least a couple of seasons. A change of management will 80% of the time mean we have to get worse to get better, but following Fergie I'd change that percentage to 100%. Did anyone honestly expect it to be business as usual? Would Mourinho have us battering the league right now? No. Klopp wouldn't either. Ancelotti would do alright I think but we didn't appoint him.

And I'd welcome the loss of the glory-hunters, not the actual losing. Rub those brain cells together, it might help you understand shit.

Get off your high horse. Lowering expectations means lowering of standards and that isn't acceptable in the ultra-competitive world of English/European football. You go down that road and you invite decline.

As for the bit about a change of management, where do you get 80% from??? Everton have improved within a few months and Moyes managed them for 11 years, Southampton improved straight away under Pochettino. In Europe Guardiola is improving Bayern and they won the treble last season. What people expected was standards to be maintained at least. Everyone can peddle the Ferguson factor and say "this was always going to happen" but I don't buy that for a second it is an excuse based on conjecture. You have no idea how Klopp or Mourinho would be doing, they could be top of the league for all you know. Then you say Ancelotti would do alright?? Bizarre.

 

[Tomalonge]

Perhaps you ought to write down a summary of what you write somewhere so you don't contradict yourself half an hour later.

You wouldn't welcome "the actual losing"? You just said you would welcome a season of mediocrity. What do you imagine mediocrity entails? You also talk about "being realistic", but then you imagine some wet dream where we're mediocre for a season, which somehow gets rid of all the "plastics", before we magically become good again. Oh, and all of that without the "plastics" coming back. Any good team will have plastics, but maybe you should be more focused on the club than how inferior some fans are.

Shut the feck up.

My stipulation was that I'd accept a couple of bad years ONLY if that meant getting rid of the twats. You're picturing me with glee when we lose and that's not the case, very far from it infact. I'd be very disappointed, but I could see some silver lining if we lost a few thousand gimps.

 

[Tomalonge]

Are you religious Tomalonge? Cause this is completely blind faith. We are 5 points behind the fourth (and fifth) team in the league and have played worse than either of those teams, have a much worse goal-difference then them and both of them have defeated us.

I'm atheist, I wish I had a faith though, not sure how this is relevant?

 

[Tomalonge]

Get off your high horse. Lowering expectations means lowering of standards and that isn't acceptable in the ultra-competitive world of English/European football. You go down that road and you invite decline.

As for the bit about a change of management, where do you get 80% from??? Everton have improved within a few months and Moyes managed them for 11 years, Southampton improved straight away under Pochettino. In Europe Guardiola is improving Bayern and they won the treble last season. What people expected was standards to be maintained at least. Everyone can peddle the Ferguson factor and say "this was always going to happen" but I don't buy that for a second it is an excuse based on conjecture. You have no idea how Klopp or Mourinho would be doing, they could be top of the league for all you know. Then you say Ancelotti would do alright?? Bizarre.

I added an opinion of mine. Mourinho's short-term, Klopp's not a proven winner yet. Ancelotti won the double when Fergie was in charge.

I wasn't preaching it as gospel. That's why I said "I think"

And the 80%, believe it or not, isn't or wasn't sold as a fact. The point I was trying to highlight is that most managers struggle when they're moving into a new job. For one to jump in and hit the ground running is very rare. For someone to follow SAF and keep his standards up instantly is impossible.