"Philosophy"

[ManUArfa]

I like "Philosophy".

LVG runs this team like a business/organisation. In business, without a mission statement or plan, nobody knows what each other is doing and chaos ensues. That's what we had last season- we were reactive rather than proactive/confident and nobody knew what the hell they were doing. There were clear examples of this in certain games under David Moyes.

To build a team that wins in a business marketplace everybody in that team has to know what they're buying in to and what they're doing. LVG's philosophy is undoubtedly based around a way of playing and everything that is needed to support that, such as player adaptability, player attitude, player intelligence etc. This should not be confused with formations. These are designed to get the best out of the players at your disposal at any given time and/or to counter the threat of/take advantage of a weakness of the opposition.

We've had to change formations quite a bit this season because of injuries and an imbalanced squad that was full of number 9s and 10s, out-of-form wingers and ageing/retiring midfielders and defenders. Part of this problem has been solved by the new signings but mostly by playing players where they are most effective- even if that means a position they hadn't really played in before. To achieve this LVG's philosophy ensured that we kept the types of player who could adapt to what he wanted and who bought in to his system. It's no surprise that LVG has already rejuvenated the seasons of many players who had a flop last year- Young, Fellaini, Valencia to name but a few.

Edit: What I also like about LVG's philosophy is that of self-critical analysis. If something that he instigated is not working he's not afraid to lose face by changing it. He will make whatever change is needed e.g. lack of balance of physicality in the team- play Fellaini, McNair losing confidence- bring him off. LVG continually learns from his mistakes.

 

[Nights]

Well no one's calling 'kick it long son' a philosophy

I'm sure our previous manager did.

 

[peterstorey]

I like "Philosophy".

LVG runs this team like a business/organisation. In business, without a mission statement or plan, nobody knows what each other is doing and chaos ensues. That's what we had last season- we were reactive rather than proactive/confident and nobody knew what the hell they were doing. There were clear examples of this in certain games under David Moyes.

To build a team that wins in a business marketplace everybody in that team has to know what they're buying in to and what they're doing. LVG's philosophy is undoubtedly based around a way of playing and everything that is needed to support that, such as player adaptability, player attitude, player intelligence etc. This should not be confused with formations. These are designed to get the best out of the players at your disposal at any given time and/or to counter the threat of/take advantage of a weakness of the opposition.

fantastic parody.

 

[Rood]

I want this word banned from all football related speak forever.

What does this actually mean in football management terms?

I know in the eyes of the internet football artistry experts and various stuck up managers, it's all about a manager's prefered style of play, beliefs, ambitions, tactical nouse, etc...whatever. If you're not being a pretentious gimp though this could just be covered by the term "tactics" or even "management", couldn't it?

It just seems to me to be a word Van Gaal and others (but especially Van Gaal) use as a kind of excuse word. So they can be stubborn idiots about things and it somehow not be their fault when it repeatedly doesn't work.

For example, Van Gaal picks 3-5-2...a formation that doesn't suit his team or allow them to play well, but because the philosophy and the philosophy can't be wrong, it somehow becomes the players fault for not adapting to the formation like a bunch of supermen, rather than the manager's fault for picking a formation he already KNOWS wont work.

It's not Wenger's fault that his philosophy negates the need for any midfield or defensive discipline, it's the players' fault.

It's a load of shite is what it is. Stupid people playing at being clever, or clever people playing at trying to treat everyone else like they're stupid.

A few years ago you'd never hear anyone say it, then Pep popped up at Barca and now everyone has a philosophy, and everyone's philosophy is the right philosophy, which means everyone must by definition have the same philosophy...which they don't. It's completely ridiculous.

I'm sick of it.

I dont think Pep invented football philosophy - in fact he most likely learnt it from LvG in the first place!

I dont really know why LvG stays with the 3-5-2 for us as the players never look comfortable playing it, as far as I can tell it has never been part of his 'philosophy' until very recently but then he has also said that his 'philosophy' is not about any specific formation anyway - we were undoubtedly shite today but then again we have just won 2 big away games playing it so most likely we will see it again.

 

[Jaytay]

Everyone knows Guardiola's philosophy it's quick tempo possession based attacking and high pressing. So when Guardiola says philosophy we have a clear image of what he means. With LVG am not quite sure what he means or how the team is supposed to play.

 

[Rossa]

I want this word banned from all football related speak forever.

What does this actually mean in football management terms?

I know in the eyes of the internet football artistry experts and various stuck up managers, it's all about a manager's prefered style of play, beliefs, ambitions, tactical nouse, etc...whatever. If you're not being a pretentious gimp though this could just be covered by the term "tactics" or even "management", couldn't it?

It just seems to me to be a word Van Gaal and others (but especially Van Gaal) use as a kind of excuse word. So they can be stubborn idiots about things and it somehow not be their fault when it repeatedly doesn't work.

For example, Van Gaal picks 3-5-2...a formation that doesn't suit his team or allow them to play well, but because the philosophy and the philosophy can't be wrong, it somehow becomes the players fault for not adapting to the formation like a bunch of supermen, rather than the manager's fault for picking a formation he already KNOWS wont work.

It's not Wenger's fault that his philosophy negates the need for any midfield or defensive discipline, it's the players' fault.

It's a load of shite is what it is. Stupid people playing at being clever, or clever people playing at trying to treat everyone else like they're stupid.

A few years ago you'd never hear anyone say it, then Pep popped up at Barca and now everyone has a philosophy, and everyone's philosophy is the right philosophy, which means everyone must by definition have the same philosophy...which they don't. It's completely ridiculous.

I'm sick of it.

I made a similar thread some while back, and I agree 100% with you. Football style or tactics is more than good enough to describe how a manager wants his team to play.

Basically, it's pretentiousness, no two ways about it. When you can't explain things in simple terms, you are not in full control, imo. Talking about philosophy and not explaining it is just a way of trying to dodge the questions.

 

[Insanity]

It is a big steaming pile o'shit, that's what it is.

It is more annoying as there is hardly any evidence of it on the pitch. Yesterday, we went back to looking like a team of strangers asked to kick it around. Van Gaal has made no attempt to explain the word, but I guess the assumption is that if he uses it often people will get it. No, we don't.

The injury argument would work if we changed the formation and the so called "philosophy" because of an injury. We didn't pick up an injury between Stoke and the start of the game last night, so what was this dire need to play 352? It seems like he is more interested in proving a point, whatever that is.

Our fans have started to sound more and more like Arsenal fans used to until a couple of years. Laping up the manager's bullshit, ignoring the reality and claiming the moral high ground. They all thought they were some fancy Frenchmen, some in India even started speaking Hindi with a french accent when talking Arsenal. Since Van Gaal's arrival ours have become Dutch football philosophers.

Still 3rd after 15 games. YAY!!!!!!!!

 

[Suedesi]

I want this word banned from all football related speak forever.

What does this actually mean in football management terms?

I know in the eyes of the internet football artistry experts and various stuck up managers, it's all about a manager's prefered style of play, beliefs, ambitions, tactical nouse, etc...whatever. If you're not being a pretentious gimp though this could just be covered by the term "tactics" or even "management", couldn't it?

It just seems to me to be a word Van Gaal and others (but especially Van Gaal) use as a kind of excuse word. So they can be stubborn idiots about things and it somehow not be their fault when it repeatedly doesn't work.

For example, Van Gaal picks 3-5-2...a formation that doesn't suit his team or allow them to play well, but because the philosophy and the philosophy can't be wrong, it somehow becomes the players fault for not adapting to the formation like a bunch of supermen, rather than the manager's fault for picking a formation he already KNOWS wont work.

It's not Wenger's fault that his philosophy negates the need for any midfield or defensive discipline, it's the players' fault.

It's a load of shite is what it is. Stupid people playing at being clever, or clever people playing at trying to treat everyone else like they're stupid.

A few years ago you'd never hear anyone say it, then Pep popped up at Barca and now everyone has a philosophy, and everyone's philosophy is the right philosophy, which means everyone must by definition have the same philosophy...which they don't. It's completely ridiculous.

I'm sick of it.

This slideshow from LvG's time at Barcelona should help

http://www.slideshare.net/coachingtech/barcelonaphilosophy1

 

[Balu]

Everyone knows Guardiola's philosophy it's quick tempo possession based attacking and high pressing. So when Guardiola says philosophy we have a clear image of what he means. With LVG am not quite sure what he means or how the team is supposed to play.

Does Guardiola really use the word himself? I don't think I've often heard it from him, it's more the media that use it all the time to describe his idea of football. Most of the time his words are a lot more pragmatic, he talks about his ideas and how the players haven't fully understood them yet, which is perfectly normal in my opinion.

I dont think Pep invented football philosophy - in fact he most likely learnt it from LvG in the first place!

Yeah, let's skip Cruyff, who obviously was the most important manager in Guardiola's career while we give all the credit to van Gaal, who drove Guardiola out of the club.

 

[JPRouve]

Football style or tactics is more than good enough to describe how a manager wants his team to play.

The problem is that when Van Gaal talks about philosophy, he is not talking about that, but how he trains the players, how he tries to develop them individually in order to see them fit in a collective set up.

Van Gaal isn't special tactically or stylistically, Van Gaal makes a difference on the training ground by helping players achieve their potentials.

After that the tactic, depends on the player he has at his disposal, Van Gaal is flexible and pragmatic.

 

[The Red Thinker]

I was hoping to see some transformation in the way we play football, not necessarily results. I don't see that yet.

That will happen with time. Remember Chelsea were not playing slam bam football last year. He was instilling his methodology and Chelsea were quite bad at times under Mourinho and quite dour to watch. One year late, whooosh! transformed into an all-star attacking unit. Patience my friend.

 

[The Red Thinker]

I applaud caf's ability to find something negative out of nothing in anything.

 

[Bilbo]

Its a way of confusing people into believing that any lack of progress is down to the players rather than the manager - "its not my fault, they don't yet understand the philosophy".

As has been said already in this thread, there appears to be no pattern to our strategy.

 

[SirAF]

I was hoping to see some transformation in the way we play football, not necessarily results. I don't see that yet.

The signs are there, and the season is barely 4 months old.

 

[Kaos]

The weird thing is that normally LVG uses the same 14 players and the same formation but stopped doing that with us.

That's a bit difficult to do when your players are constantly getting injured.

I'm sure that if he had a full, healthy team to choose from you'll probably see the same formation/players week in and week out.

 

[moses]

I see 5 wins on the spin has limited what noodle can be politely irate about.

 

[Bilbo]

The signs are there, and the season is barely 4 months old.

We've played some matches well. We've been poor in others. I have to bring this name into any debate these days, but in the interest of fairness if Moyes was still in charge the fans would be looking at the bad performances as a yardstick, with Van Gaal fans are looking at the good ones.

Last night was I think about as bad as I've ever seen us play. However, we are third in the table and on a winning streak. I think Van Gaal is a good coach and will improve us in time, but if I'm honest I think the 'signs' that people are referring to so far are exaggerated.

 

[Alock1]

Swear we've had this thread about 7 times over now.

It fits the dictionary definition. Simple as that.

 

[Sammyjunn]

It's just an excuse, and he hasnt really handled according to his philosophy on occasions..

 

[Alock1]

It's just an excuse, and he hasnt really handled according to his philosophy on occasions..

Was it an excuse for all those trophies he won aswel?

 

[Hectic]

I see 5 wins on the spin has limited what noodle can be politely irate about.

Pretty much, it must be very frustrating.

 

[KM]

With all the injuries and lack of the settled team, has he even got a chance to instil his philosophy in the first team?
The moaning about our standard of player is absolutely ridiculous IMO. Take out 5 or 6 first choice players and the team performance is going to struggle.

 

[strongwalker]

"Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.[1][2] Philosophy is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its and its reliance on rational argument.[3] In more casual speech, by extension, "philosophy" can refer to "the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group""

As football coaches, and sometimes clubs, *do* have different concepts, beliefs and attitudes, and football is undoubtedly fundamental and connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language, and i like to discuss such matters with a critical, generally systematic approach, "philosophy" is as good a name for it as any other

 

[Raoul]

I see 5 wins on the spin has limited what noodle can be politely irate about.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Was it an excuse for all those trophies he won aswel?

Who says it's because of the philosophy he won them? What's up with his philosophy when he was kicked out at Bayern, Barcelona, AZ when it wasnt working at all?

 

[JPRouve]

Who says it's because of the philosophy he won them? What's up with his philosophy when he was kicked out at Bayern, Barcelona, AZ when it wasnt working at all?

He hasn't been kicked out of AZ, did he ?

And for the rest the clubs had different philosophies.

 

[Cassidy]

Who says it's because of the philosophy he won them? What's up with his philosophy when he was kicked out at Bayern, Barcelona, AZ when it wasnt working at all?

The funny thing is Bayern even now still state and maintain their success is build on LVGs philosophy so I wouldn't mention Bayern if I was you.

 

[JPRouve]

The funny thing is Bayern even now still state and maintain their success is build on LVGs philosophy so I wouldn't mention Bayern if I was you.

And when Barcelona fielded eleven "la masia"'s players they thanked Van gaal for his work and his legacy.

 

[Sammyjunn]

The funny thing is Bayern even now still state and maintain their success is build on LVGs philosophy so I wouldn't mention Bayern if I was you.

I'm not saying he doesnt do good work for a club, but it's that because of his philosophy? He leaves a great academy, a great system, great players, and the new coach build on that. He's a great manager, really is but if you always talk about philosophy, and when it gets hard change it (352 isnt according to LVG's 'philosophy' one bit, a player like Fellaini isnt too), it's not your philosophy to bring a injured player back straight away, he needs to play in u21, but he does this with player A and doesnt do it with player B, the whole philosophy talk seems unreliable to me.

 

[JPRouve]

I'm not saying he doesnt do good work for a club, but it's that because of his philosophy? He leaves a great academy, a great system, great players, and the new coach build on that. He's a great manager, really is but if you always talk about philosophy, and when it gets hard change it (352 isnt according to LVG's 'philosophy' one bit, a player like Fellaini isnt too), it's not your philosophy to bring a injured player back straight away, he needs to play in u21, but he does this with player A and doesnt do it with player B, the whole philosophy talk seems unreliable to me.

His philosophy has nothing to do with the systems he uses, it's about how he wants his players to react or anticipate in specific situations and it's about developing his players technicality and tactical awareness.
He can change the system but keep his philosophy, that's why he leaves a great academy and great players.

 

[Sammyjunn]

His philosophy has nothing to do with the systems he uses, it's about how he wants his players to react or anticipate in specific situations and it's about developing his players technicality and tactical awareness.
He can change the system but keep his philosophy, that's why he leaves a great academy and great players.

I dont think that's what his philosophy defines, it's much more to it. It would be highly unlikely if you think that's his philosophy and that makes that he builds excellent foundations at clubs. It would be weird if another coach has the same idea of how he wants player to react/anticipate or the tactical awareness of players. The tactical approach between LVG and Heynckes for example is very different, but yet the foundation LVG built was excellent. I think there's much more to it, and it's not that I dont agree with his philosophy, it's just that he shuffles a lot unter that and makes things unquestionable by that. If you're team plays shit, dont say it's because of the philosophy, or they just don't understand it yet, or having a crappy start is what corroborates with my philosophy and stuff like that. Saying that attacking football is you're philosophy and then playing 5 defenders and counter all match.

 

[Redguern]

I'm more stoic about it personally.

I lol'd

 

[bigredmachine]

'philosophy' is the new 'project'.

 

[JPRouve]

I dont think that's what his philosophy defines, it's much more to it. It would be highly unlikely if you think that's his philosophy and that makes that he builds excellent foundations at clubs. It would be weird if another coach has the same idea of how he wants player to react/anticipate or the tactical awareness of players. The tactical approach between LVG and Heynckes for example is very different, but yet the foundation LVG built was excellent. I think there's much more to it, and it's not that I dont agree with his philosophy, it's just that he shuffles a lot unter that and makes things unquestionable by that. If you're team plays shit, dont say it's because of the philosophy, or they just don't understand it yet, or having a crappy start is what corroborates with my philosophy and stuff like that. Saying that attacking football is you're philosophy and then playing 5 defenders and counter all match.

His philosophy(methodology) is supposed to help doing that, but the formation is negligible:

He would use ideally a 4-3-3 with an holding midfielder, the offensive players press briefly to allow their defensive teammates to sit back in their ideal positions.

The play his supposed to begin from the back and develop in one smooth, sharp, rapid movement toward the opposing box, and the action has to end by a shot on target.
If the team fails to do that in one smooth movement, little matter where they are on the field, they have to reset the movement and restart from the back.

That's what i understood when watching his teams play, but do that he try to develop his players individually and thinks that his methodology is different from his colleagues'.

 

[zing]

fantastic parody.

 

[fishfingers15]

I see 5 wins on the spin has limited what noodle can be politely irate about.

Boom

 

[Cheesy]

And of course Jamie Redknapp has just used the word on the pre-match punditry for the Arsenal game.

 

[Sally Cinnamon]

cringe at this thread. Fergie used to always use the word philosophy in the context of him managing United long before Guardiola was even a manager.

 

[JPRouve]

cringe at this thread. Fergie used to always use the word philosophy in the context of him managing United long before Guardiola was even a manager.

The infamous "United Way".

 

[Ish]

Not sure what that's supposed to imply. We're in 3rd despite being in a major injury crisis where each of the players we bought during the summer have intermittently not been available. That's actually quite an accomplishment when you consider the lack of starting XI options he's had.

Yeah it is. If you look at our defence lineup this season, it's almost laughable, due to our injury crisis. I'd take what we have for now.