Picking stupid teams

[marjen]

When are we gonna stop picking blatantly stupid and unsuited teams for a huge percentage of our matches? Today I knew the instant I saw the line-up what kind of match we were in for.

Scholes and/or Giggs can't play in a two-man midfield anymore.

Playing midfielders as defenders aren't a good idea.

Playing strikers as wingers when we've got fit actual wingers aren't a good idea.

Playing strikers as midfielders instead of just using the two mobile midfielders we actually have isn't a good idea.

And lastly, if you've been playing horrendously, why not reward the ones who actually show some desire with a chance?

 

[ArmchairCritic]

You sound more like noodlehair with every passing day.

 

[Varun]

All this has been discussed in other threads tbf. It is needless but SAF still does it. Lets hope it happens as less as possible.

 

[marjen]

You sound more like noodlehair with every passing day.

Ignoring that and looking at the actual subject of this thread; don't you agree that picking Scholes/Carrick as a midfield duo against a team desperate for three points in an away match is blatantly stupid?

 

[Utd heap]

I'm going to stick with wanting Ferguson as the manager as opposed to Marjen off the internet.

 

[marjen]

I'm going to stick with wanting Ferguson as the manager as opposed to Marjen off the internet.

Me too. But that's not changing the fact that picking unnecesarry stupid teams might be one surefire way of not winning football matches.

Luckily we've been bailed out by the sheer brilliance of our forwards so far, but it's not going to last. We need to put out coherent teams that stand a decent chance of doing the job they're asked to do.

I'm aware there will be rotation and at times Fergie will prioritize to rest players in some matches he thinks we can get away with it, but there's a balance that needs to be struck in terms of lining up a functional team on the day.

 

[Ash_G]

If the wingers are on their game we would likely have buried the match in the first half, we got back in the game with Scholes and Carrick playing. If definitely has it's flaws but today the problem was the front four doing virtually nothing until Hernandez came on, this in term gave Villa confidence and our lack of penetration pushed us up the pitch, leaving space to exploit.

 

[Scrumpet]

...for CL group games?

 

[marjen]

If the wingers are on their game we would likely have buried the match in the first half, we got back in the game with Scholes and Carrick playing. If definitely has it's flaws but today the problem was the front four doing virtually nothing until Hernandez came on, this in term gave Villa confidence and our lack of penetration pushed us up the pitch, leaving space to exploit.

The problem today was our patented No Midfield Approach starring Michael Carrick and Paul Scholes, and little less.

If we had at least an ounce of tempo and urgency in our play, we would've destroyed Villa. Instead we relied on Valencia dribbling two players and setting up goals for our strikers. Unfortunately, he had a bit of an off-day. But that doesn't excuse asking Scholes and Carrick to do a job they're blatantly unable to do.

 

[marjen]

...for CL group games?

We've actually picked decent teams for the CL this season, and would you believe it, we're through as group winners.

 

[Ludens the Red]

When are we gonna stop picking blatantly stupid and unsuited teams for a huge percentage of our matches? Today I knew the instant I saw the line-up what kind of match we were in for.

Scholes and/or Giggs can't play in a two-man midfield anymore.

Playing midfielders as defenders aren't a good idea.

Playing strikers as wingers when we've got fit actual wingers aren't a good idea.

Playing strikers as midfielders instead of just using the two mobile midfielders we actually have isn't a good idea.

And lastly, if you've been playing horrendously, why not reward the ones who actually show some desire with a chance?

None of those things happened today. And I'm sure noodlehair has a thread on here with the exact same "Picking stupid teams" title and the exact same criticism of playing players not in their position.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Ignoring that and looking at the actual subject of this thread; don't you agree that picking Scholes/Carrick as a midfield duo against a team desperate for three points in an away match is blatantly stupid?

Not if Scholes and Valencia played at their best no.

 

[Hal9000]

The issue i have is that some of our midfielders don't have the work ethic when defending. Look at Villa, 30% possession at one point, yet there midfielders were working hard enough to defend and still manage to get forward to cause us trouble up top.

 

[marjen]

None of those things happened today. And I'm sure noodlehair has a thread on here with the exact same "Picking stupid teams" title and the exact same criticism of playing players not in their position.

None of those happened today, but they have happened earlier in the season.

It's just baffling. We've got a big squad, big enough not to be fecking about needlessly weakening our chances of winning any particular match. I mean fair enough if we have an off day, but not when part of the reason we're having it is us picking stupid teams for a certain match.

 

[marjen]

Not if Scholes and Valencia played at their best no.

But we can't bank on every one of our players being fantastic on any given day. We need to play a team that is best suited to the situation, and a team that can carry one or two poor performances due to it being balanced and coherent.

Scholes in a midfield two away from home is a disaster waiting to happen these days. Today, he didn't even try, which admittedly didn' help things.

 

[stubie]

Injuries happen and squad rotation is needed from time to time

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Well Scholes had 3 weeks off and we're playing Villa. I expected Scholes to slot in and dictate the game and for arguably the first time since January he didn't, he's human and he had a bad game. I'd discuss this more in depth if it hadn't already been done to death:

https://www.redcafe.net/f6/fergies-obsession-picking-old-players-midfield-359506/

 

[Brophs]

Today, he didn't even try

Do you actually believe that, or are you just exaggerating to make your point?

 

[Scrumpet]

I reckon Scholes can still be effective in a 2 man midfield, or whatever you want to call what we played today. The problem was that firstly, he himself had a bit of an off night passing wise, and secondly our wingers were shite warmed up for most of the match. It is a weakness of Carrick-Scholes that their passing styles means we become even more reliant on our wingers, but that is no big deal normally if at least one of our wide men turn up. I think it's a pairing that can get the job done for us in a lot of matches.

The alternative pairings are Carrick-Cleverley which has played a role in some awful performances this season, and a pairing involving Anderson, which will only really become a viable option when he can get his fitness sorted, which will hopefully be sooner rather than later.

 

[Rowem]

Playing midfielders as defenders aren't a good idea.

When has this happened this season other than when we had 4 CBs injured and Carrick HAD to play at CB?

Talk about padding out your argument with things that sound good but are actually completely irrelevant.

Some of your other points are also explainable but what's the point debating with someone who is so dead set that they will twist and ignore facts so that it suits them?

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

If the wingers are on their game we would likely have buried the match in the first half, we got back in the game with Scholes and Carrick playing. If definitely has it's flaws but today the problem was the front four doing virtually nothing until Hernandez came on, this in term gave Villa confidence and our lack of penetration pushed us up the pitch, leaving space to exploit.

Bingo.
If Young and Valencia were actually clinical today, it wouldn't be so bad. Our midfield works best when our wingers are on form because all they need to do is just ping the passes wide and let them do their magic.

When Valencia and Young aren't having the best of days, it makes the whole midfield look bad since there's an option less for the midfield to actually comfortably pass to.

Of course Carrick and Scholes aren't the most mobile of midfielders - but they do the job. We weren't really over-run at all today, maybe on a couple of occassions I guess - but let's not forget that Scholes pulled out a great pass to Hernandez to get that first goal.

I doubt Fergie would start the two together against City.

 

[KingEric7]

Ferguson is definitely not without his flaws at the moment, it must be said. To repeatedly set us up in order that we are so heavily reliant on wingers is baffling, especially when those wingers are on off form Valencia and Young. It has never made more sense to play 3 in midfield than it has now, but even if not that a midfield with a little bit of bite to it.

There are still things that are not quite right irrespective of the formation though, in my opinion. Even when we have the ball in advanced positions (that is, when the midfield has done it's job), our attackers can be quite often too static and unwilling to move for the ball. That applies to Rooney and Van Persie also. There is rightly a lot of praise for the performance of the two, but there is still work to be done there.

 

[marjen]

Do you actually believe that, or are you just exaggerating to make your point?

I honestly wondered at one point. When I see him strolling back after losing the ball, letting three players run off him without even sprinting back, exposing our defence, I have to wonder why. It wasn't even played more than about 20 minutes, so he couldn't have been tired.

 

[Ludens the Red]

None of those happened today, but they have happened earlier in the season.

It's just baffling. We've got a big squad, big enough not to be fecking about needlessly weakening our chances of winning any particular match. I mean fair enough if we have an off day, but not when part of the reason we're having it is us picking stupid teams for a certain match.

I'm not disagreeing but its odd timing.
Especially as today we didn't really pick a stupid team.
It was a very poor villa team, I didnt see our team and think bad choice fergi.
I'm just pleased he changed it quickly. Cos in the past hes sometimes waited too long.

But you are sounding like noodlehair... Like almost word for word.

 

[Ash_G]

The problem today was our patented No Midfield Approach starring Michael Carrick and Paul Scholes, and little less.

If we had at least an ounce of tempo and urgency in our play, we would've destroyed Villa. Instead we relied on Valencia dribbling two players and setting up goals for our strikers. Unfortunately, he had a bit of an off-day. But that doesn't excuse asking Scholes and Carrick to do a job they're blatantly unable to do.

What you mean the midfield that dominated the ball, got it to all the attacking players in exactly the places they would want it? Carrick and /scholes weren't just passing it amongst themselves and the defenders, every chance they got the spread it so Valencia and Young were one on one with their full back. They gave Rooney the ball plenty of times around the edge of the box. They can't control what they do on the ball. Blaming the wrong people, if we couldn't get on the ball or get it anywhere then blame the midfield but if we dominate the ball and actually get it to the forward players then they've done their bit.

Bingo.
If Young and Valencia were actually clinical today, it wouldn't be so bad. Our midfield works best when our wingers are on form because all they need to do is just ping the passes wide and let them do their magic.

When Valencia and Young aren't having the best of days, it makes the whole midfield look bad since there's an option less for the midfield to actually comfortably pass to.

Of course Carrick and Scholes aren't the most mobile of midfielders - but they do the job. We weren't really over-run at all today, maybe on a couple of occassions I guess - but let's not forget that Scholes pulled out a great pass to Hernandez to get that first goal.

I doubt Fergie would start the two together against City.

Yeah, like I said it's not a perfect combo and some games it's not suited to but for me this wasn't one of those which is evident by how much of the ball we had. They can't control what the others do. what's Rooney doing? His role is to be the slightly deeper player who can make stuff happen and with the wingers is the main man creatively, that's where the problem was.

I think part of the issue is people always seem to compare our midfielders against what the likes of Silva, Mata etc do which is wrong, our players fufill similar roles to the likes of Mikel, Barry, Ramires, Garcia, Arteta etc, they're not there to be the chief creators, they're there to make sure we have the ball and to get it to the attacking players in the places they'd want it, and they did that.

I think part of our problem is that without a Nani type player we don't really have someone capable of beating players or coming inside with the ball consistently. Valencia sticks to his wing and if he can't find the space to power past people he has to bide his time and recyle the ball. Young simply can't do it on a regular basis. That's not to say Nani should play ahead of them, just that, that sort of player is something we can lack and it limits our attacking options.

 

[JustAFan]

Ignoring that and looking at the actual subject of this thread; don't you agree that picking Scholes/Carrick as a midfield duo against a team desperate for three points in an away match is blatantly stupid?

Aren't all teams desperate for 3 points every week?

 

[Maplered]

We won, we are top of our Champions League GRoup .................muppets

 

[Brophs]

I honestly wondered at one point. When I see him strolling back after losing the ball, letting three players run off him without even sprinting back, exposing our defence, I have to wonder why. It wasn't even played more than about 20 minutes, so he couldn't have been tired.

I couldn't disagree more, basically.

A 'bad' performance doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't trying. The worrying issue, IMO, is that he's really struggling physically. More than ever on the basis of the last half dozen games he's played.

 

[7dan]

I'm going to stick with wanting Ferguson as the manager as opposed to Marjen off the internet.

I was in two minds but im gona agree with you,

 

[Platato]

I reckon Scholes can still be effective in a 2 man midfield, or whatever you want to call what we played today. The problem was that firstly, he himself had a bit of an off night passing wise, and secondly our wingers were shite warmed up for most of the match. It is a weakness of Carrick-Scholes that their passing styles means we become even more reliant on our wingers, but that is no big deal normally if at least one of our wide men turn up. I think it's a pairing that can get the job done for us in a lot of matches.

The alternative pairings are Carrick-Cleverley which has played a role in some awful performances this season, and a pairing involving Anderson, which will only really become a viable option when he can get his fitness sorted, which will hopefully be sooner rather than later.

Your point exactly? Carrick and Scholes have played in arguably worse games and if anything Carrick and Cleverley are actually showing some promise. You're just trying to balance things out here. Basically cancelling your point out by trying to cancel out someone else's.

 

[SER19]

I'm going to stick with wanting Ferguson as the manager as opposed to Marjen off the internet.

agreed.

13/15 wins this season.....feck OFF COMPLAINING!!!!

 

[marjen]

Another horrific example today. We've got one midfielder that's been at least doing his job in every match he's played stuck on the bench, plus the one midfielder who has reached the highest performance levels in individual matches alongside him on the bench.

At the same time, we're giving Fletcher a nice easy re-introduction into PL football by placing him alongside 38 year-old Paul Scholes, who's possibly the one midfielder who's looked more off the pace than Fletcher himself.

Also, we're playing Ashley Young, who's been horrific this season, and Danny Welbeck, the striker, on the wings. We're also benching Smalling and Jones due to them doing some actual defending, while playing Evans straight back from injury.

And to top it off we've gone with Anders Lindegaard who's not looked assured at all in place of David De Gea because of a tooth.

(Yes, I'm excaggerating, but come on, the Fletch/Scholes thing is a recipe for disaster and you know it)

 

[Cina]

I don't think this is nearly as bad looking a line up as the Norwich game, so I'm personally going to hold off, cause I think it'll do the job and win rather comfortably.

Or fail miserably, feck knows with us anymore.

 

[marjen]

I don't think this is nearly as bad looking a line up as the Norwich game, so I'm personally going to hold off, cause I think it'll do the job and win rather comfortably.

Or fail miserably, feck knows with us anymore.

In 6 or 7 out of 10 matches, we'll win this comfortably with today's lineup(due to the sheer class of RVP, Rooney etc).

The point of this thread though is that we should win home matches vs QPR comfortably 9 out of 10, or perhaps 95 out of 100, but we're deliberately weakening our team to lower the odds of us winning. For no reason.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

The team we've put out should still trounce QPR 5-0. If we lose, it's not due to selections - it's due to having another shitty day, or QPR playing a game of their lives.

 

[Fergus' son]

Lindergaard was great in the last game so deserves some time, but I agree that it's not ideal 'dropping' DDG.

Best game for Fletcher to come back is this one, god knows he needs to get back to pace.

We don't just give up on players out of of form, especially when returning from injury, that's why Young has got another chance?

We may as well not count Nani as Utd player anymore, clearly going to leave.

 

[Freak]

I just shudder when I see Scholes and Giggs start in midfield these days ahead of players who have been much better than them this season.

 

[Fergus' son]

The usual suspects were moaning that Giggs and Carrick as a midfield two makes us more likely to lose or draw than win, however when I offered to bet on that they went all quiet.

I don't mind betting again, that despite our old and slow midfield, we still win.

 

[JayWalker]

It's a fine XI for QPR at home. No problems for me. Except Young, maybe but hell, might as well give him games like these to play himself back into form.

 

[Orton]

This is why I don't think we have a chance in europe. There is absolute no consistency in our line up, our midfield is literally different every single game. Look at the other top sides and they rarely if ever change it. Maybe it is because Fergie doesn't know what the best options are, but if we want to compete this season and win trophies it will need to be sorted soon.