Isn't that what we are doing by debating the issue? The fact we cannot understand his justification for picking nearly 40 yr old players and playing them in a system which regularly exposes their lack of mobility is surely why the issue is so hotly debated.
Picking stupid teams
- Thread starter marjen
- Start date
Youve gotta love that CAF Logic, Rooney is out of form so lets drop Hernandez?
Now we have Kagawa if Rooney is out of form we drop Rooney, Hernandez had been our most consistent perfromer this season, dropping him to keep a poor Rooney in the side makes no sense.
Rafael*
Fair comment.....Little rafa has been excellent too
Completely agree.
I'm not buying these 'Fergie is rotating to manage fitness' arguments. It would make sense if Anderson was actually getting games in the league now and again, but he hasn't been so far. I'm trying to imagine how the discussion would go:
SAF: "I've noticed we're struggling in midfield this season, and Scholes can't run. but because I wanted to keep everyone fit, I'll play him in every league game instead of younger players even though he's in woeful form and we keep conceding goals and losing games because of his inability to move."
Come on, give the man more credit than that. Maybe he wasn't certain what he would get from Anderson and Cleverly and he went for Scholes because he, quite legitimately, expected his performances to improve; but that excuse up there is fecking stupid. Seasons may not be won in November, but they can definitely be lost. SAF isn't crazy enough to think we can risk losing games now in order to play our best players in the run-in because that, again, would be pretty fecking stupid.
SAF: "I've noticed we're struggling in midfield this season, and Scholes can't run. but because I wanted to keep everyone fit, I'll play him in every league game instead of younger players even though he's in woeful form and we keep conceding goals and losing games because of his inability to move."
Come on, give the man more credit than that. Maybe he wasn't certain what he would get from Anderson and Cleverly and he went for Scholes because he, quite legitimately, expected his performances to improve; but that excuse up there is fecking stupid. Seasons may not be won in November, but they can definitely be lost. SAF isn't crazy enough to think we can risk losing games now in order to play our best players in the run-in because that, again, would be pretty fecking stupid.
We need to be subjective though. This season we have our second highest points total after 14 games since the PL began (might be 3rd highest - I can't recall). Even so, when we take into account that we've played some tricky away matches that we usually struggle in already in those 14 games, we are not doing too bad at all.
The biggest tests this season are still to come, and we will find out a lot about this squad in those games, starting with City next weekend. Don't be too surprised if Scholes starts that match either.
Its pretty harsh to blame Scholes for all of our woes, isn't it? We do also have defenders in our team, and a goalkeeper, and we have won 11 of our 14 games so far.
Its getting more and more difficult to be objective with Scholes. I watched the QPR game last week and though Scholes was probably our best player in the first half, though admittedly I was drunk. Then I saw the reports and he was getting 5's & 6's mostly.
I think I'm now in the camp that believes he should mostly be used as a sub to steady things when needed, but I don't agree that we would have 14 wins if Scholes and Giggs had retired in the summer.
Of course, but then be objective at the same time. The bottom line is however well we have done so far, we should have done better. A better midfield selection away at Norwich, and at home to Spurs would have probably not seen us lose those games in the manner we did.
I would excuse the Everton loss due to injuries, but still Scholes and Clevs was still not a wise or a suitable midfield combo for such a difficult away game. In my view every time we play a 2 man midfield and 2 wingers we look like conceding almost every time we lose the ball. The clean sheets and comfortable victories we have enjoyed, have come when we have moved away from that approach.
For me it's noit being excessively critical to question why we then change back to a 4-4-2 that makes us vulnerable, rather than sticking with an alternate system that have given us far more control and ultimately better performances, as well as the 3 points.
Right there with you mate. We share similar views. I think some in here aren't comfortable talking tactics or don't see poor tactics as the reason for these poor results. A large part is how you view the game.
Some of my mates take it from "this is how United are under Fergie" approach. They'll mention my griping is pointless as Fergie has put out strange selections before only to settle on a team in the second half of the season where United really come to the fore and that he usually gets it right in the end. We've had a poster on here already dispel this myth about a major improvement in performances in the second half of our seasons recently. It used to be the case mind. They're right though, Fergie more often than not does get it right in the end.
However, they're not really comfortable talking tactics and whenever we play poorly, it's because we were either too slow to make a change, "bad day at the office", "one of those days", "team was good enough to win", "Fergie knows what he's doing", "opponents being game raisers" with that last quote being the most infuriating. Spurs didn't really raise their game against us, they simply exploited our lackadaisical play and the gaps we left exposed in the middle but I digress.
Main point is people see what they want to see and if their opinions are that strong, it's very unlikely they will agree or acknowledge your point, no matter how correct it is.
So what is the point of what you have posted? Where do you stand on this?
Is Ferguson no longer good enough to manage this club? Is he now a tactical dinosaur? Or is it simply that he makes mistakes just like every other manager?
Ferguson has never been considered an overly tactical manager. His strengths lie in other areas, and he clearly has a method that is successful more often than not. I think you may be mistaking people that refrain from talking about tactics with long-time supporters that realise that he doesn't necessarily operate in that way.
Look at the recent discussion by him about the diamond formation. He spoke as though the thought of moving away from his usual strategy had never ever really occured to him before. It was actually quite endearing.
I think we need to be careful with our expectations. He is too old to change his style, and who could reasonably argue that he needs to?
Yes. I have figured it out.
Fergie loves going with the tried and tested Scholes, Giggs and Carrick because he doesn't trust the backline without Vidic!
I feel that Fergie thinks that playing the young and energetic midfielders will create more openings for our young and injury plagued backline.
Since VDS and Vidic haven't been around it has just been Rio back there with a 20 year old keeper.
Now that defenders are getting fit Fergie seems to heading in the 'play the young midfielders' mind frame.
Now, playing the older and experienced midfield DID create chances for the other teams due to lack of mobility, however, we were able to keep possession of the ball pretty well and I think that Fergie thought this would be enough to keep things stable.
I think Fergie did get this wrong but we are top of the league so Fergie knows a thing or two more than us.
Fergie loves going with the tried and tested Scholes, Giggs and Carrick because he doesn't trust the backline without Vidic!
I feel that Fergie thinks that playing the young and energetic midfielders will create more openings for our young and injury plagued backline.
Since VDS and Vidic haven't been around it has just been Rio back there with a 20 year old keeper.
Now that defenders are getting fit Fergie seems to heading in the 'play the young midfielders' mind frame.
Now, playing the older and experienced midfield DID create chances for the other teams due to lack of mobility, however, we were able to keep possession of the ball pretty well and I think that Fergie thought this would be enough to keep things stable.
I think Fergie did get this wrong but we are top of the league so Fergie knows a thing or two more than us.
It could well be that he does actually see the Anderson/Cleverley/Carrick trio (or any variation within) as our best midfield, and he is trying to keep them fresh for the important part of the season.
I thought that, but then he decided to drop Ando and Cleverley against Norwich and then to play them away at Galatasaray which killed that theory for me. I think that he still doesn't trust enough them, as much as he trust Giggs/Scholes.
I think injuries are the main reason we have seen weird teams selected over the last year or so.
VDS retirement, Vidic long term injury, Rio back problems, Fabio always hurt, Jones and Smalling injuries this season, Fletcher's illness, Hargreaves, Anderson over the years, Cleverley last season.
feck me that has the alter Fergie's team selection. It is not as easy as 'play the young players' or 'this is where squad players get their chance'.
It changes everything.
It looks like we are finally looking at some overall health of the entire squad (except Nani dammit!). Lets see how xmas and the new years fixtures shape up. THEN we will see what this team is made of.
Top of the league while injury plagued and playing like shit mostly!
VDS retirement, Vidic long term injury, Rio back problems, Fabio always hurt, Jones and Smalling injuries this season, Fletcher's illness, Hargreaves, Anderson over the years, Cleverley last season.
feck me that has the alter Fergie's team selection. It is not as easy as 'play the young players' or 'this is where squad players get their chance'.
It changes everything.
It looks like we are finally looking at some overall health of the entire squad (except Nani dammit!). Lets see how xmas and the new years fixtures shape up. THEN we will see what this team is made of.
Top of the league while injury plagued and playing like shit mostly!
The Norwich game was a head scratcher indeed.
The answer to your questions lies within this thread.
That's the thing about SAF. He's always entertained new ideas. The question is now, will he do so in his old age? Unless we are more tactically balanced with his current style (4-4-2 expansive) we might want to consider changing tact. At least have an alternative option which seems to be the case now with the diamond.
We are either too narrow (like against WHU) or far too open with aged players in central positions. If we could avoid the following I think we'd see a lot less headaches:
- Dont' pick Rooney, RVP and Hernandez in the same side. Too narrow.
- Stop playing Rooney in midfield
- Cut out this wingless diamond nonsense.
- No more Scholes or Giggs in CM, except as late substitutes.
- If Young is crap (he is), Valencia out of form (he is) and Nani injured (he is). Use Welbeck and Rooney as inside forwards in a 4-3-3. We don't ever need 3 CF's.
- Dont' pick Rooney, RVP and Hernandez in the same side. Too narrow.
- Stop playing Rooney in midfield
- Cut out this wingless diamond nonsense.
- No more Scholes or Giggs in CM, except as late substitutes.
- If Young is crap (he is), Valencia out of form (he is) and Nani injured (he is). Use Welbeck and Rooney as inside forwards in a 4-3-3. We don't ever need 3 CF's.
With our wingers in such shite form/injured and Welbeck being largely wasted out left, i think the formation and the players chosen were good for the game. We could have scored a lot more. Width can come from the full backs.
Agreed. He was playing even further behind than Cleverley most game. Pointless stuff. Giving him freedom is one thing but it shouldnt come at the expense of marginalizing his qualities. Rooney should be played much further ahead.
Again, the diamond isnt a problem. We've looked toothless with wingers who cant beat a man to save their lives.
Agreed.
Rooney can play there, not welbeck though. Doesnt look comfortable on the left. And we werent playing 3 CFs, just 2. Rooney on the teamsheet doesnt equate to another striker, as you rightly said, he was in midfield.