PL clubs furlough non-playing staff | Liverpool, Spurs & Bournemouth U-turns

africanspur

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Totally different businesses. PL clubs have a lot of revenue locked in ahead of time. Airlines especially have billions of dollars in outgoings they can't get out of (planes are expensive, fuel is bought in advance), they can't afford to pay staff too without revenue coming in. Fast fashion and other consumer businesses like that who operate on the basis of a high turnover of goods to sustain revenues are also far more at risk.

I would say there are a few on your list who won't see the other side of Covid-19 even with the furlough scheme.
They aren't totally different business at all. Football clubs have a very significant and clear outgoing that currently they are trying to negotiate down (almost every single club in the PL has a wage to turnover ratio of at least 50%, the ones in the championship seem to almost universally have wage to turnover ratios of over 100% for some reason). Their turnover is however, for all intents and purposes, £0 right now. They aren't making money from matchdays and don't know when the next time they can will be. They may have to give back some TV money. They are not going to be getting prize money if leagues aren't running and, for those clubs which factor in some kind of European competition, they don't know if there will be Europe this season or indeed next season.

I would imagine there are quite a few of these which won't see the other side of Covid and I reckon there's quite a few football clubs that won't either, if this goes on for more than a few weeks (which it almost certainly will).


I would also say in your example that the players are essentially the planes. Their multi million pound assets which are currently useless but which fundamentally are the most important aspect of the business. And which are currently their biggest outgoing.
 
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africanspur

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You're still missing the point. The majority of those companies have low paid staff which will be furloughed to 1) retain their job after the crisis 2) the companies are not generating any income as in most cases because they had to close down. The MAIN issue with Spurs is they are furloughing lower paid staff, which is using tax payers money to pay them. This whilst still paying their top earning football players thousands a week in FULL and they are not evening working or training. Why can't some people see this?

If those companies above are still paying the directors etc in full pay then feck them as well.
I'm not missing the point, just seeing nuance in the situation as opposed to immediately seeing it in black or white.

Football clubs are not currently making any money either, they also have mostly low paid staff in terms of numbers (though obviously not in terms of the total expenditure on wages) and almost every single company on that list turns over more than even Man Utd, the undisputed financial powerhouse of this league. I don't know if people have noticed but football and literally every single one of its revenue streams is also shut down for now (other than merchandise I guess and sponsorship money, which I assume will have already been paid for this season).

What I think some people still aren't seeing is that most football clubs are relative small fry in terms of world business turnover. They are not built to go long periods without income, which is exactly what they're at risk of right now. They are not built to undergo periods of uncertainty when it comes to knowing when their revenue streams will restart (which is exactly how it is now).

I'm pretty sure every single club in the league wants their players to take a pay cut (and I believe have actually suggested a 30% cut). The players are currently digging in and want a collective solution. That's why they are still getting paid in full, not anything to do with what the clubs want.

I would hope that the directors do not take a salary during this time (though in theory, they'll be the only people actually working overtime at the moment in the clubs) and that the players and clubs come to an agreement regarding pay cuts too.
 

Toblerone92

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He was asked one question specifically about footballer's salaries and gave an answer. Blame the media for the direction this has taken, not him. Also an MP's salary is around £80k a year which on average a Premier League footballer earns in a week. Their comparison in wealth is vastly different. Plus he is still working unlike footballers who are doing literally nothing at this time. But yes I'm sure this is a Tory vs Labour issue, deary me.

I'm not talking about Hancock's salary (although he earns nearly double that £80k) but the earnings of those who give so much to the Conservative party. And It's not a Tory vs Labour issue, but his position is typical of those in the Conservative party; no calls for bankers and billionaires to pay more, but insisting footballers take a wage cut. Why single them out?

Tax rates should be staggered up to 70-80% and beyond for those earning huge salaries, and if they were we wouldn't have this huge gulf in funding for essential services, but that's another conversation entirely and I've no doubt you'll disagree with me on that issue too.
 

Josep Dowling

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I'm not missing the point, just seeing nuance in the situation as opposed to immediately seeing it in black or white.

Football clubs are not currently making any money either, they also have mostly low paid staff in terms of numbers (though obviously not in terms of the total expenditure on wages) and almost every single company on that list turns over more than even Man Utd, the undisputed financial powerhouse of this league. I don't know if people have noticed but football and literally every single one of its revenue streams is also shut down for now (other than merchandise I guess and sponsorship money, which I assume will have already been paid for this season).

What I think some people still aren't seeing is that most football clubs are relative small fry in terms of world business turnover. They are not built to go long periods without income, which is exactly what they're at risk of right now. They are not built to undergo periods of uncertainty when it comes to knowing when their revenue streams will restart (which is exactly how it is now).

I'm pretty sure every single club in the league wants their players to take a pay cut (and I believe have actually suggested a 30% cut). The players are currently digging in and want a collective solution. That's why they are still getting paid in full, not anything to do with what the clubs want.

I would hope that the directors do not take a salary during this time (though in theory, they'll be the only people actually working overtime at the moment in the clubs) and that the players and clubs come to an agreement regarding pay cuts too.
And this why all footballers should be taking a pay cut regardless. The only argument most have about footballers not taking a pay cut is ‘this is only benefiting their billionaire owners’. Clearly it’s not if their companies are not generating any income.

Football is also a unique business where only a select few of the business make 1000x more than the lowest paid staff. They can afford to take pay cuts if other staff are being put on furlough. At the end of it all I don’t think it’s right a business is using the furlough scheme if some staff are still being paid in full at the top end of the salary scale. That’s goes for football clubs and other businesses.
 

11101

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They aren't totally different business at all. Football clubs have a very significant and clear outgoing that currently they are trying to negotiate down (almost every single club in the PL has a wage to turnover ratio of at least 50%, the ones in the championship seem to almost universally have wage to turnover ratios of over 100% for some reason). Their turnover is however, for all intents and purposes, £0 right now. They aren't making money from matchdays and don't know when the next time they can will be. They may have to give back some TV money. They are not going to be getting prize money if leagues aren't running and, for those clubs which factor in some kind of European competition, they don't know if there will be Europe this season or indeed next season.

I would imagine there are quite a few of these which won't see the other side of Covid and I reckon there's quite a few football clubs that won't either, if this goes on for more than a few weeks (which it almost certainly will).


I would also say in your example that the players are essentially the planes. Their multi million pound assets which are currently useless but which fundamentally are the most important aspect of the business. And which are currently their biggest outgoing.
Simply put the revenue impact on football clubs is not going to be as big as it is for many companies, and they have much lower fixed costs.

Using our club as an example, only 18% of the revenue comes from matchdays. 44% is commercial which will be largely unaffected and 38% is from broadcasting, only some of which will be reduced. We make 627m in revenue, and most of it will still come through the door. We spent 178m on player purchases last year of which 133m was on new players, that is money that wont be spent this summer. It won't be easy for anybody but PL clubs have far more capacity to absorb a few months of reduced revenue than most.

Compare that to IAG (British Airways) - they have 3b worth of fuel costs they forward contract each year. Aircraft cost them 2b whether they fly or not. The majority of their costs are fixed and cannot be reduced or deferred. Employees cost them 2.5b. They have total costs of 11b on revenues of 13b, and IATA expect airline revenues to halve across Europe in 2020 (importantly this impact will almost all come from a 3 month period). If that comes to fruition IAG will be 5 billion Euros short. That is why they are putting every employee they can on furlough.

By the way, IAG are arguably the best positioned airline on the planet to survive this. Airlines like Norwegian stand no chance.
 

alexthelion

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I'm not talking about Hancock's salary (although he earns nearly double that £80k) but the earnings of those who give so much to the Conservative party. And It's not a Tory vs Labour issue, but his position is typical of those in the Conservative party; no calls for bankers and billionaires to pay more, but insisting footballers take a wage cut. Why single them out?

Tax rates should be staggered up to 70-80% and beyond for those earning huge salaries, and if they were we wouldn't have this huge gulf in funding for essential services, but that's another conversation entirely and I've no doubt you'll disagree with me on that issue too.
Those horrible Tories you seem to hate so much have forced the banks/financial institutions not to pay any bonuses.

Footballers were 'singled out' as you put it because a journalist specifically asked him a question about them.

Wind your neck in, you're wrong.
 

AlwaysRed66

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I'm not talking about Hancock's salary (although he earns nearly double that £80k) but the earnings of those who give so much to the Conservative party. And It's not a Tory vs Labour issue, but his position is typical of those in the Conservative party; no calls for bankers and billionaires to pay more, but insisting footballers take a wage cut. Why single them out?

Tax rates should be staggered up to 70-80% and beyond for those earning huge salaries, and if they were we wouldn't have this huge gulf in funding for essential services, but that's another conversation entirely and I've no doubt you'll disagree with me on that issue too.
I am sure all those noble footballlers will be happy paying 70-80% tax on their hugh salaries, & would rather give their money into essential services, then pay minimal taxes abroad. Wish you luck with that, & don't moan when all the top players leave the country to work abroad. A little communist in the making. Whether it is ethical or not, it has been proven if you put up taxes to massive levels people will either avoid them or go elsewhere.
 

dumbo

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Tory cnut Hancock was specifically asked about Richard Branson in relation to covid finance, refused to comment. The Tory cnut.
 

FlawlessThaw

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It’s an unpopular opinion but the PFA are right.

Joe Lewis is the reason that Spurs have actively sought to release their non-playing staff. Likewise, Mike Ashley at Newcastle.
I know Levy gets a lot of flack and he deserves it but Spurs' biggest shareholder is a tax exile in Joe Lewis. On the flip side they are fully prepared to take advantage of the Government in the time of crisis.
 

Toblerone92

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I am sure all those noble footballlers will be happy paying 70-80% tax on their hugh salaries, & would rather give their money into essential services, then pay minimal taxes abroad. Wish you luck with that, & don't moan when all the top players leave the country to work abroad. A little communist in the making. Whether it is ethical or not, it has been proven if you put up taxes to massive levels people will either avoid them or go elsewhere.
Wish me luck with what exactly? Having an opinion on the tax system and how grossly unfair it is? This applies to every high earner, not just footballers.

These kind of policies obviously require unilateral tax reform across Europe, and as we already have some of the lowest rates of income tax in this country as it is, ‘going elsewhere’ wouldn’t be an option. You only have to look to Scandinavia to see higher tax brackets being a success, with a much higher bracket for top earners and a much lower for those at the bottom. It’s about improving the distribution of wealth, but that makes me a little communist does it? Grow up.

You go on advocating for lower taxes and defending those that earn absolute fortunes, baulking at the idea of making them pay their fair share out of fear they may leave the country. Pathetic.
 

Toblerone92

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Those horrible Tories you seem to hate so much have forced the banks/financial institutions not to pay any bonuses.

Footballers were 'singled out' as you put it because a journalist specifically asked him a question about them.

Wind your neck in, you're wrong.


It was the Bank of England‘a Prudential Regulation Authoritystepped in to stop bonus payments, and did so after the majority of these bonuses had already been paid out. Add to this the fact that a large proportion of bonuses are paid in shares and therefore unaffected by these measures, and you have a pretty useless intervention.

Instead of telling me to wind my neck in, how about you remove your head from the Conservative arse it’s currently stuck in and understand what you’re talking about.
 

africanspur

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Simply put the revenue impact on football clubs is not going to be as big as it is for many companies, and they have much lower fixed costs.

Using our club as an example, only 18% of the revenue comes from matchdays. 44% is commercial which will be largely unaffected and 38% is from broadcasting, only some of which will be reduced. We make 627m in revenue, and most of it will still come through the door. We spent 178m on player purchases last year of which 133m was on new players, that is money that wont be spent this summer. It won't be easy for anybody but PL clubs have far more capacity to absorb a few months of reduced revenue than most.

Compare that to IAG (British Airways) - they have 3b worth of fuel costs they forward contract each year. Aircraft cost them 2b whether they fly or not. The majority of their costs are fixed and cannot be reduced or deferred. Employees cost them 2.5b. They have total costs of 11b on revenues of 13b, and IATA expect airline revenues to halve across Europe in 2020 (importantly this impact will almost all come from a 3 month period). If that comes to fruition IAG will be 5 billion Euros short. That is why they are putting every employee they can on furlough.

By the way, IAG are arguably the best positioned airline on the planet to survive this. Airlines like Norwegian stand no chance.
I really don't think this is true to be honest. I honestly feel some people still believe that things will basically go back to normal soon, which I don' think it will.

I'm not sure about the promoted clubs for this season but almost every single club in the league has a wage to turnover ratio of at least 50%. 7 are at least 70%. Those are not low fixed costs.

In the championship, 14 clubs had a wage to turnover ratio of >100%. Another 5 had 70% of more.

Even Man Utd, a commercial machine then, still makes less than 50% of its money from commercial income. As I keep on saying, we have no idea when football will restart and, if it does, in what guise. Are our clubs' sponsors going to be happy paying up if matches are played beyind closed doors? If the matches are cancelled completely?

I'm coming at this from a perspective of clubs that, in the grand scheme of things, are small fry, who do not know how and when their main sources of income will manifest themselves. All while their costs are currently often at least 70% of turnover and without a specific plan to reduce it.
 

africanspur

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And this why all footballers should be taking a pay cut regardless. The only argument most have about footballers not taking a pay cut is ‘this is only benefiting their billionaire owners’. Clearly it’s not if their companies are not generating any income.

Football is also a unique business where only a select few of the business make 1000x more than the lowest paid staff. They can afford to take pay cuts if other staff are being put on furlough. At the end of it all I don’t think it’s right a business is using the furlough scheme if some staff are still being paid in full at the top end of the salary scale. That’s goes for football clubs and other businesses.
I agree, they clearly should but it is currently not the fault of the clubs that they have not. They are taking a collective stance at the moment.

Also, is that really that unique in larger businesses?

As I said, if clubs had the choice to reduce their players' wages, they would 100% take it. It is currently not an option though, in the English top flight anyway.
 

11101

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I really don't think this is true to be honest. I honestly feel some people still believe that things will basically go back to normal soon, which I don' think it will.

I'm not sure about the promoted clubs for this season but almost every single club in the league has a wage to turnover ratio of at least 50%. 7 are at least 70%. Those are not low fixed costs.

In the championship, 14 clubs had a wage to turnover ratio of >100%. Another 5 had 70% of more.

Even Man Utd, a commercial machine then, still makes less than 50% of its money from commercial income. As I keep on saying, we have no idea when football will restart and, if it does, in what guise. Are our clubs' sponsors going to be happy paying up if matches are played beyind closed doors? If the matches are cancelled completely?

I'm coming at this from a perspective of clubs that, in the grand scheme of things, are small fry, who do not know how and when their main sources of income will manifest themselves. All while their costs are currently often at least 70% of turnover and without a specific plan to reduce it.
I'm not talking about Championship clubs and below because they will have a much harder time of this. I'm talking about the likes of Liverpool, Spurs and us (as our figures are public), and trying to explain why they really shouldn't be furloughing non playing staff.

Compare us to Easyjet, a middle of the road (financially speaking) airline:

Revenue (millions) / Cost:
MU - 627 / 602
Easyjet - 6387 / 6036

We spent 178 on player acquisitions last year. Our salary expenditure is 332, of which media estimates half is spent on players (we don't publish a breakdown). Our player expenditure last year more than covers an entire years salary for our backroom staff. We have a huge amount of costs that we don't need to spend and could be sacrificed for a year to keep our staff. In our case that's likely exactly what we are doing.

For Easyjet, the owning and operation of the aircraft alone costs 4100, whether they fly or not doesn't make much difference. If airline revenues drop by half this year (to 3100) Easyjet will be left 1000 short even if they shut the entire business down and parked all the aircraft. Crew costs are the next biggest single item at 859. There is ~1000 remaining that is a mixture of fixed and variable, but even if they reduce that by 50% they are still 500 short. They have no choice but to furlough crew.

Easyjet like IAG are a solid business. On the list you wrote above there are a lot that couldn't turn a profit even before this.
 

Black.Ghost

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Those horrible Tories you seem to hate so much have forced the banks/financial institutions not to pay any bonuses.

Footballers were 'singled out' as you put it because a journalist specifically asked him a question about them.

Wind your neck in, you're wrong.
Weren’t some bonuses already paid before they were told not to? The banks also had to be told not to pay the dividends to owners as well. Otherwise they absolutely were going to be putting millions back into the already rich investors.
Ministers are paid around 140k a year with the PM earning approx 10k more, which is nothing compared to footballers. However, a lot of them have other income sources as well.
it shouldn’t be on anyone except the state to fund the NHS. Not footballers, not the wealthy, none of them. That being said, I think the wealthy now more than ever need to consider ways they can help. Most of them only get rich off the backs of the poor anyway.

Richard Branson has told / asked his staff to take 8 weeks unpaid leave. His personal fortune is £4bn and some. He could pay his staff for months out of his own pocket and it wouldn’t even dent his own personal wealth.
Mike Ashley tried to stay open before ridicule, now furloughed non-playing staff at Newcastle. Not sure of his personal fortune, but could keep them going as well.
Jeff Bezos, worth over a trillion, has asked his Amazon staff to donate to help those taking time off because they are sick.
Sam Smith, the spoilt little brat, having melt downs in his £12million London apartment. There are many others.
Don’t feel too much sympathy for the rich. They won’t feel shit for you. As always, it’s the poorest and hardest working that will shoulder this.
I hope this causes a real shake up in a lot of industries, especially football. Don’t be fooled it’s only a job. It’s a bloody dream and the players know it. A lot of them would be doing little better than the rest of us, and in some cases worse or Christ knows what, if they weren’t good at kicking a ball.
 
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Antisocial

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Spurs following the heroic actions of Liverpool’s owners - inspirational at this difficult time.

But as said above, the end result is right.
 
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Really poor decision. Laughable that Levy was banging on about being the 8th biggest club in the world, and at the same time going cap in hand to the government to pay 80% of wages and forcing a 20% pay cut on non playing staff.

the damage has been done, and god knows how it’s taken 2 weeks to make this decision.

fair play to the spurs supporters who lobbied for the change. It shows that in these instances football does not come first. Would have loved to have seen @GlastonSpur and his reaction to it, no doubt he would be flip flopping all over the place and advocating Levy’s decisions no matter what the consequences.

really doesn’t paint Levy in any sort of good light within the game. It’s been very obvious that he’s all about money, and that’s his sole motivation. People will remember this.

Then you also have the likes of Tesco, who are taking advantage of business rate relief to the time of £700m, and this was a business that made £1.8bn profit last year and are one of the businesses who are not being negatively affected.

far too many businesses and individuals taking advantage of the situation to the detriment of those who actually need the help and support.
 

duffer

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Chelsea seem to be generally doing the sort of thing I would hope a Premier League side does...


The initiative is aimed at helping NHS staff who are working long shifts and therefore may find it difficult to obtain good-quality food on a regular basis, and also forms part of our continued effort to support the most vulnerable in our community during the global coronavirus pandemic.

The meals will be provided to Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust across their five local hospitals, including St Mary’s Hospital in Paddington, Charing Cross Hospital in Fulham and Hammersmith Hospital.


Beyond absurd that a football club needs to be doing this though.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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Beyond absurd that a football club needs to be doing this though.
Its not. This is how society should be designed to operate. If you can help, you do.

I’m fortunate to be at a company that’s going to go largely untouched by this. But they’re a great company. They’re not crowing about it. They’ve kicked off some pretty big initiatives to help people, and business that need it. They are choosing to make less, and give up money, to help.

Their attitude made me wake up a little bit.

We have a cleaner at home, obviously she can’t come anymore and we can do it ourselves. We’re still paying her every week.

My girlfriend has a hairdresser that comes every few weeks. She’s paid her upfront for the next couple of cuts. How they work the backend I don’t know but it’s all good.

If all businesses that are on a firm footing, helped just a little bit, the world would be a better place. People do pay it forward. It’s infectious.

I think that good news stories should penetrate into the media. Thousands of people will be doing far more than me.

Really impressed with Chelsea. I hope more outrageously positive stories start to come out of football. I’d love to hear that Scott McTominay phoned the club and decided to gift a years salary to three people in the canteen. No salary sacrifice. No percentage shit. Just “I have lots, you have little, let me remove all worries from your immediate future, right now”. (That suggestion doesn’t function as a criticism that it’s not happening already)
 

Pexbo

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Fair fecks to Morgan. Glad to see this cock get asked the difficult questions for a change.
 

duffer

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Its not. This is how society should be designed to operate. If you can help, you do.
Society should not be designed so that the needy rely on the good graces of a billionaire to eat a healthy meal, in my humble opinion.

It's nice that Roman has done it but it's a disgrace that it needed to be done.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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Society should not be designed so that the needy rely on the good graces of a billionaire to eat a healthy meal, in my humble opinion.

It's nice that Roman has done it but it's a disgrace that it needed to be done.
Not the angle I was taking with that mate.

Maybe “designed” should have been left out. I just mean that society should help itself.
 

Lee565

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It's funny how perception of levy has seen a real 180 turn around amongst most football fans and pundits over the past year, he has gone from not being able to do a thing wrong to now seen being as a villain in what is happening to spurs on and off the pitch.
 

decorativeed

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Its not. This is how society should be designed to operate. If you can help, you do.

I’m fortunate to be at a company that’s going to go largely untouched by this. But they’re a great company. They’re not crowing about it. They’ve kicked off some pretty big initiatives to help people, and business that need it. They are choosing to make less, and give up money, to help.

Their attitude made me wake up a little bit.

We have a cleaner at home, obviously she can’t come anymore and we can do it ourselves. We’re still paying her every week.

My girlfriend has a hairdresser that comes every few weeks. She’s paid her upfront for the next couple of cuts. How they work the backend I don’t know but it’s all good.

If all businesses that are on a firm footing, helped just a little bit, the world would be a better place. People do pay it forward. It’s infectious.

I think that good news stories should penetrate into the media. Thousands of people will be doing far more than me.

Really impressed with Chelsea. I hope more outrageously positive stories start to come out of football. I’d love to hear that Scott McTominay phoned the club and decided to gift a years salary to three people in the canteen. No salary sacrifice. No percentage shit. Just “I have lots, you have little, let me remove all worries from your immediate future, right now”. (That suggestion doesn’t function as a criticism that it’s not happening already)
You'd change your tune if you'd ever eaten in that canteen, mate. Those people deserve nothing.
 

dwd

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It's funny how perception of levy has seen a real 180 turn around amongst most football fans and pundits over the past year, he has gone from not being able to do a thing wrong to now seen being as a villain in what is happening to spurs on and off the pitch.
I don’t think anyone had that opinion did they? He’s always been viewed as tight.
 

Lee565

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I don’t think anyone had that opinion did they? He’s always been viewed as tight.
I dont know I think he was labelled as being more shrewd than tight, the amount of times people use to post on this message board about wishing United had levy in charge of running the club and pundits praising how well he had been running spurs but now all the positive opinions about him have become negative ones.
 
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I dont know I think he was labelled as being more shrewd than tight, the amount of times people use to post on this message board about wishing United had levy in charge of running the club and pundits praising how well he had been running spurs but now all the positive opinions about him have become negative ones.
Levy has never been shrewd, he’s always been about the money and being able to extract decent transfer fees - although he’s done very poorly with the likes of Toby, Eriksen and Rose recently.

the perfect example of how Levy concentrates purely on cash was the transfer of Berbatov - no doubt he got more money with his tactics but screwed over the team as he took it to the last moment.
 

Acole9

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All three clubs should be relegated for doing this in first place.
 

Fitchett

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Levy has never been shrewd, he’s always been about the money and being able to extract decent transfer fees - although he’s done very poorly with the likes of Toby, Eriksen and Rose recently.

the perfect example of how Levy concentrates purely on cash was the transfer of Berbatov - no doubt he got more money with his tactics but screwed over the team as he took it to the last moment.
Exactly! There was no time to buy a replacement for Berbatov, so inevitably Spurs struggled that season. The fault was purely down to Levy's financial greed, but he pinned the blame on his manager, Martin Jol, and sacked him quite early on in the season.