Was RVN world class in 02-03?
Players considered World Class who you don't think are World Class
- Thread starter LawCharltonBest
- Start date
No way.
The one sure fire world class player in that 99 team was Keane. You can make a case for Schmeichel & Stam ( maybe) but no one else.All very good players mind.
This. And "the conversation" usually gets settled by making a well functioning XI as opposed to the usual mess a tournament XI is.
E.g. is Giggs world class at the same time as Rivaldo in late 90s? Surely gets settled by the team needing a winger or an inside left and not either being better/more top than the other.
Vidic was better from 08/09 onwards. Rio was better before that, but his back injury dropped him down a level or two and Vida took over as the superior defender.
Shocking
Beckham was definitely world class from 99-01. For those three seasons he was one of the best players in the world. Before that and after that not so much, but his three year peak was incredible.
Schmeichel was definitely world class for most of his time here, but 99 was the start of his decline and he wasn't anymore at that point.
Giggs is a difficult one to judge. He was around so long and was always one of the best in his position, but I'm not sure if there was any 1-3 season period where he was truly pushing to be 'the' best.
Yorke had a world class season in 99, but it was a one off so wouldn't say he actually was world class.
The whole midfield was world class along with stam and schmeichs.
You're not gonna find many here agreeing with you on Beckham and Giggs
James Rodriguez. Never ever world class but was considered world class for a while because of the world cup performance. Flopped at Real Madrid, Bayern, Everton. No surprises there.
Sorry but
The real question is what do you consider world class? There is no strict definition and for someone it could be top 3 player in their position, for someone else top 5 and someone else top 10.
You could then argue which players fit into these buckets.
You could then argue which players fit into these buckets.
Most of his England goals were against dross in qualifiers to be fair. I don't think his England career helps in his case for being world class bar euro 2004
Think Rooney had seasons where he was absolutely world class (2007, 2010, 2012, second half of 2011) and other seasons where he wasn't. It wasn't a consistent level of being world class. And the peaks and troughs was mainly due to him sacrificing to make other players in the team better. When he led the line for Manchester United, he was a monster.
It is world class material, and I said it was a world class career. I don't think he would have been top scorer without Sir Alex. In any case, he is not England top scorer anymore, and will surely fall down the list more. As for United, for a club of our size I actually think that number is not a very high one. If you imagine Ronaldo stayed for another 5 years, Ruud too, Rooney would not have the record.
It is hypothetical of course, but if it's the case that Rooney drops down the list of scorers, does that change your opinion? He was a great player, but I can not claim he is objectively World Class. Subjectively though, as in the stats you provided, I completely see how many will view him as world class.
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Oh don't worry, as I said in my later post, I think we all have a player we rate less than everyone else does. For me it's Hazard. Think he was a top top player but the consistency and other facets of his game will always have him just the level below world class for me.Sorry but
Yes mate I was 15 years old when Rooney joined and became a supporter after 99 (immediately of course!)
I was not just referring to lifestyle. For what its worth, I believe his lifestyle would have caught up to him earlier, and significantly earlier, if this is when it managed to happen even under Fergie. I don't think I understand what you mean with the Moyes point, but Fergie was definitely correct in planning to get rid. The great man would not have publicised that in his last home match, with no personal benefit at all to him, if he didn't think it was 100% necessary and important for the clubs sakes.
As we then saw though, with genius Ed at the helm, that was probably the start of players hanging the club over a barrel and the no good culture. Deserved for ignoring Sir Alex or thinking they knew better than him.
In any case, I know many view him as world class. He is not objectively world class though, that's for sure. I tend to withhold the world class tag for objectively, undeniably, world class players. R9, Cristiano, Messi, Zidane, Scholes, etc.
For me world class means they'd make a world 25 squad. For that reason United currently have 0 world class players.
Who is generally considered world class who I don't think should be? Don't know. But some people throw the word around too loosely which undervalues it
Who is generally considered world class who I don't think should be? Don't know. But some people throw the word around too loosely which undervalues it
John Terry. Massively overrated player, beyond me why so many thought he was the best defender around for so many years. Made to look better than he was by Gallas, Carvalho and Rio for England. Plus having Makalele sitting in front of him. Big lump.
Sergio Ramos. I'd say he was great but not world class. Too many red cards, would sell himself too cheaply trying to nick the ball and had an error in him.
Obviously his trophy haul would argue otherwise but there's many other defenders I'd take over him
Obviously his trophy haul would argue otherwise but there's many other defenders I'd take over him
Nah its fair enough silent it's all a game of opinions and of course people rate players in different ways and what's world class to some is not to others just on the hazard point though there was a period where he was easily one of the best players/forwards in the world and almost unplayable at times it may not have been for an extended time though I agree.
I do agree that Terry's top level is a bit overrated, but you seem to be underrating him a lot.
IMO he never reached the same level as the likes of Rio, Vidic, VVD, Stam, Campbell and a couple of others did at their peaks, but he was still very good. What Terry did have over anybody else that I can think of (other than maybe Tony Adams) is longevity. He had at least a full decade of being one of the best in the league, whereas all the others I named were really only there for 3-6 years before falling away.
I think he’s definitely always had the raw footballing talent to be truly world class, it’s just that he’s lacked the drive that all the true greats have and has been badly hampered by injury. Talent alone is never enough.
I know this is going to be controversial, but was Cantona world class? He's obviously revered not only at United but also in England for making us into a the dominant team, which coincided with the exponential growth in popularity of the league.
The reality though is that the EPL was the fourth best league in the world at that time, their the level was not as high as the other European leagues, and United were also not very competitive in European competition. Don't remember him having an impact in international competition as well, though he was being suspended by every other manager as well. In the grand scheme of world football at that time, can he be considered world class?
I only saw his last season at United so can't say to have watched his peak.
The reality though is that the EPL was the fourth best league in the world at that time, their the level was not as high as the other European leagues, and United were also not very competitive in European competition. Don't remember him having an impact in international competition as well, though he was being suspended by every other manager as well. In the grand scheme of world football at that time, can he be considered world class?
I only saw his last season at United so can't say to have watched his peak.
Beckham was the best player in the world in 1999. Yes I said it. Came second in the balon dor that year only to rivaldo, and should have won it.
played 55 games that season, assisting 20 goals and scoring 9. He played 10 games in the champions league that year and assisted goals in 8 of them. He didn’t even play in the bronby game where we scored 6 goals. He was key in many pivotal moments that season, the assists were like works of art. Just a thing of beauty. My fave being the Keane bullet header assist against juventus.
he also was pivotal in both champions league final goals. Without him, we didn’t score either of them!
but it wasn’t just the goals and assists (stats) his engine that season was unbelievable, I believe he played more games than anyone that year? I could be wrong
All in all, Just a magical player with a wand of a right foot. Certainly world class in his peak.
Commentators and the press always over rate those playing for a London club.
Alisson
Ain't read the thread. Are there lots of people quibbling over, trying to define and failing to agree on what world class means?
Business as usual then for a "world class" discussion. Many things have changed over the last 22 years but not that.
Business as usual then for a "world class" discussion. Many things have changed over the last 22 years but not that.
I agree that he was. It is strange to observe his reputation gradually declining over time in collective memory, while Scholes seems to improve every year that passes. I'm also glad to see people acknowledge that he was a hard-working player with a great engine in his prime, not just a winger who could hit crosses. In my eyes, more deserving of the Ballon d'Or (and the high praise that goes with it) than another right-winger who won it around that time, and whose biggest achievement the year he was awarded the prize was getting a transfer. Anyway, since the definition of world-class isn't written in stone (opinions vary), perhaps it would be more interesting to see which players among those who have been labelled world-class seem to be a tad overrated and which among those who didn't quite manage to achieve that status seem to be a bit underrated.
I mean he won the league after Gallas Makelele and Carvalho were long gone (and while Rio was stinking the place out at QPR)
No ever said Cantona was world class.
Well this is the whole ridiculousness of the debate because nobody can ever agree on the definition of World Class and your definition seems to be narrower than most.
The initial point you made was that it was all down to Fergie. Those were his peak years as a footballer and there's absolutely no evidence to base that on so it made no sense to me at all. Scholes only did it under Fergie too so how does that differ? Rooney was an absolute force of nature when he came into the PL at the age of 17 and would have been successful anywhere.
There is a debate whether Rooney did enough with his talent to be deemed WC. However, there's also an argument to be had whether he could have been better in a different environment, one where he wasn't shunted around different positions or where the manager didn't turn a blind eye to his drinking.
Think you mean tendency?
Hazard was consistent
Steve Guppy.
TAA
Irwin was clearly a world class fullback, but maybe not in 99. He was getting a bit old at that time, but earlier on, he was. There wasnt many better fullbacks out there
RVP, great striker but never world class.
At his peak, probably the best striker in the world.
Cantona was top 3 in the Ballon d’Or in 1993 which people forget. Football was less about who did well in the CL as the only factor in non WC years. I’d say he was considered world class.
I don’t think he was obviously better than Villa, Aguero, Falcao or Ibrahimovic at those few years of his peak and then his peak didn’t last very long.
Lukaku has never been world class. What on earth are you mates on about