Players/Managers being finished

Solius

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Was thinking yesterday, has there even been a case of a player or manager that looked like they were no longer up to standard and then actually turned it around?

I'm not talking about a dip in form, more like something that lasts for over a year or maybe two. People like Moyes, Alexis Sanchez, Gotze, even Mourinho to an extent.

When Moyes goes to a club almost everyone can see it's only going to go one way. Why he's even hired is another question but is there anyone who's actually looked dead and buried and managed to revive themselves?

Also what seems to cause this? How can someone like Moyes who had such a formidable Everton team for so many years look so pathetic now? Is it just the times moving on and him not being able to adapt? Mourinho probably had his job at Spurs saved by the pandemic as they were looking awful before it and we'd have surely beaten them on form back then.

The only one I can think of is maybe Hodgson who looked horrendous at Liverpool but has turned Palace into a really good side now and has a lot of respect back.
 

Fosu-Mens

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Was thinking yesterday, has there even been a case of a player or manager that looked like they were no longer up to standard and then actually turned it around?

I'm not talking about a dip in form, more like something that lasts for over a year or maybe two. People like Moyes, Alexis Sanchez, Gotze, even Mourinho to an extent.

When Moyes goes to a club almost everyone can see it's only going to go one way. Why he's even hired is another question but is there anyone who's actually looked dead and buried and managed to revive themselves?

Also what seems to cause this? How can someone like Moyes who had such a formidable Everton team for so many years look so pathetic now? Is it just the times moving on and him not being able to adapt? Mourinho probably had his job at Spurs saved by the pandemic as they were looking awful before it and we'd have surely beaten them on form back then.

The only one I can think of is maybe Hodgson who looked horrendous at Liverpool but has turned Palace into a really good side now and has a lot of respect back.
Their tactical preference compared to the stature of the club--> Park the bus managers at big clubs is not viable.
The three managers you mention are defensive-oriented managers that do not focus on the offensive game, at least when not in a counter phase. Playing against a low block and breaking it down is extremely difficult as a team when it is purely up to the team with little to no input from the manager. And over the last 7-8 years, playing against a low block has become more and more common for the big teams in the league...

The only way for these teams to become successful is to be efficient in attack while having an extremely solid defence. And conceding well below 1 goal per game on average is harder and harder each year... I.e. the attacking capability has on average developed more than the defensive capability of teams.
 

Pretzels81

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Players
Bojan K.
Fellaini
Gotze, yes
James Rodriguez
Bale post 2018?

Managers
Emery?
Moyes
Mourinho
And let's see what Guardiola does next after 2020...
 

Vidyoyo

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Interesting thread.

One cause I imagine is ego - thinking they've done everything and don't have anything to prove. I'd say we all find the same thing in daily life/work and it's easy to realise that once you're at that point, you're either the problem or quickly going to become one.

I imagine this is how successful managers fall into this trap. It's even easier to think how it might affect players who, for all the shit they get, really do need to stay motivated to perform at the top, top level (saying nothing of their other footballing abilities).

The opposite are the likes of Beckham, who despite not being at the apex of world soccerball, had the perfect mentality to lodge himself firmly within it.
 

poleglass red

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Gary McAllister went from a relegation threatened Coventry to Liverpool at 35 and had a surprisingly influential role for them esp in the cup winning team. Not that he was poor at Coventry but at his age it was just assumed he was done.
 

NinjaFletch

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Raul?

Broke Bayern's assist record this season and is one assist away from the overall Bundesliga record...
Right, and was dropped by Joachim Löw and benched by Kovac before a revival. I think it's a pretty good shout for this thread (although probably says more about Löw and Kovac then him).
 

Gio

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Also what seems to cause this? How can someone like Moyes who had such a formidable Everton team for so many years look so pathetic now? Is it just the times moving on and him not being able to adapt? Mourinho probably had his job at Spurs saved by the pandemic as they were looking awful before it and we'd have surely beaten them on form back then.

The only one I can think of is maybe Hodgson who looked horrendous at Liverpool but has turned Palace into a really good side now and has a lot of respect back.
The game changes, but the manager cannot adapt. Most successful managers are at the vanguard for a decade or so before fading away.

For someone like Moyes the game passes them by. He was in his element in the 2000s when his hard-working contain-and-counter 4-5-1 / 4-2-3-1 was how almost all the best teams operated. But as the game has changed he's looked like a man out of his time. Very few (Michels, Lobanovskiy, Ferguson come to mind) have the longevity to adapt over longer periods. Hodgson's under-rated but even he plays exactly the same way as he did in the 1990s and had the exact same approach when he went to Inter in 1995 as he did going to Liverpool in 2010 and then to England in 2012. He's just better suited to underdogs and ship-steadying rather than playing expansive football with a top side. And that method will always have value in football, particularly when you combine it with the discipline, enthusiasm and personable approach to still be managing into your 70s.

Sir Alex Ferguson (Season 88/89 -> 89/90) after finishing 2nd (87/88). Season 90/91 onwards are glorious history.

Does that count?
It's a decent shout. Read the comments on here around 2005-ish and a lot of people felt he was done.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Certainly wouldn't argue that he's world class or anything but Renato Sanches has had a really nice bounceback season after being written off for the previous 3.
 

Dancfc

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Was Moyes even that great in the first place? I think I read somewhere his average league finish for Everton was 7th and they were also 7th in spending table. Solid job but nowhere near the all singing all dancing achievement that was being made out (partly by the man himself) at the time. Allardyce/Bolton, Roy/Fulham and Wilder this season were much tougher achievements.
 

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Van Gaal? He was great at Ajax, but after that, he didn't do very well at Barcelona, the Dutch national team, and again Barcelona. He then became technical director at Ajax, which again ende in misery. That could've been a good moment to retire, but instead, he went on to win the Dutch title at AZ, did pretty well at Bayern, and far exceeded expectations with the Dutch national team. (No need to add what happened after that, I think...)
 

Web of Bissaka

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It's a decent shout. Read the comments on here around 2005-ish and a lot of people felt he was done.
True, there were those comments back then. It was a year after Becks left I remember so around 2004 until end of 2005. Many of his decision makings then were odd.

Latter half of 2005/06 though is SAF getting back to his best :devil: the football is bloody hell felt like "United's back!" the rest is history.

Basically SAF had two "he's finished/done" moments.
 

Revan

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Was Moyes even that great in the first place? I think I read somewhere his average league finish for Everton was 7th and they were also 7th in spending table. Solid job but nowhere near the all singing all dancing achievement that was being made out (partly by the man himself) at the time. Allardyce/Bolton, Roy/Fulham and Wilder this season were much tougher achievements.
Everton's wages aligned with their average position, but his spending (net transfer) was one of the lowest in the league, and closer to relegation teams.

He was a decent manager, but never a great one. If he was not Scottish and friend with Fergue, the idea that United would have even considered him would have been laughable. It was clear back then as it is now, that competing to qualify for Europa League is his ceiling.
 

Dancfc

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Everton's wages aligned with their average position, but his spending (net transfer) was one of the lowest in the league, and closer to relegation teams.

He was a decent manager, but never a great one. If he was not Scottish and friend with Fergue, the idea that United would have even considered him would have been laughable. It was clear back then as it is now, that competing to qualify for Europa League is his ceiling.
Ah that's fair enough.

For some reason he was rated quite highly back then, I had some big debates/arguments with fellow Chelsea fans who genuinely wanted us to give him a shot.
 

Bole Top

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he wasn't exactly finished, but after he failed at Madrid, PSG and Liverpool and later ended playing in Turkey, I never believed Anelka had it in him to become premier league top scorer at 30 and if I'm not mistaken, he was ranked first or second in the assists table as well. he often played as winger and in season after that was almost equally good.
 

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Falcao. Looked absolutely finished at United and Chelsea. But came back beautifully with Monaco, especially in the CL.

Giggs. Many United fans wanted him gone in his early 30s. Lots of injuries and looked a shadow of his past self. Took up Yoga, reinvented himself, and did another decade.
 

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Zlatan was written off after Barcelona and being okayish on a Milan side that was on its last legs. Then he goes to PSG and becomes dominant but then there’s still that “yeah it’s a farmers league” mentality. He comes here and shows his class in the almighty Premier League.

Higuain also had a Renaissance or sorts when he went to Napoli.

Then there’s Diego Forlan.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Falcao's probably the best recent shout.

Awful for us and Chelsea.

Was pretty good for Monaco during their Ligue 1 title campaign.
 

Morty_

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This might be bold, but...Ronaldo.
Aging/decline, in addition to playing in a conservative team.

We will not see anything big from him at the club level anymore.
 

mariachi-19

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True, there were those comments back then. It was a year after Becks left I remember so around 2004 until end of 2005. Many of his decision makings then were odd.

Latter half of 2005/06 though is SAF getting back to his best :devil: the football is bloody hell felt like "United's back!" the rest is history.

Basically SAF had two "he's finished/done" moments.
Pretty much the same as United this season
 

Sky1981

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This might be bold, but...Ronaldo.
Aging/decline, in addition to playing in a conservative team.

We will not see anything big from him at the club level anymore.
Ronaldo isnt wasnt finished. He alreadt surpassed everyone's expectations in folds.

He was dubbed finished beyond 30 but continue to proove everyone wrong past 30
 

RashyForPM

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When a player is truly finished, then he’s done unless he reinvents his game.

For example, Giggs was blatantly done as a winger, so he retrained as and became a world class midfielder and won the PFA award for 2008-09. Of course, if you don’t have the skill to reposition yourself and change your play style, then when you’re finished in that role, for example because you got old and lost that yard of pace, then there’s no recovering. To give another example, Mata clearly cannot play as an AM or winger anymore, but if he can retrain as a David Silva style CM then he’ll be in the PL for at least 4 more years.

However, for managers, I believe they are never finished until their physical condition deteriorates into their late 70s to 80s and they become increasingly fatigued from the challenges of being the main man of a professional team. For people like Mourinho, I truly believe his corrosive personality just got in the way, and his players and the press slowly got tired of him. For others like Moyes and Hodgson, they were just never managers up to the task of managing top teams. If Dyche, who has been brilliant for Burnley and has God-like status there, goes to Arsenal and fails, would he be seen as finished?

Take this as a managerial example, if Jupp Heynckes came back to manage Bayern, I am absolutely certain that he would still win the Bundesliga and go far in the Champions League as he is a good manager.
 
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Web of Bissaka

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Agree with Anelka and Giggs there.

Pretty much the same as United this season
Too early to say that for me. United's up and down consecutively is too short.

16/17 -- up
17/18 -- up and down
18/19 -- down, up and down (Ole the caretaker months in the middle, then poor finish later on once he's permanent)
19/20 -- down and up.. (so far..)
 

harms

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Van der Sar is probably as close as you can get. Outstanding young talent and a blueprint for modern kepeers is mid 90’s, when he had won CL among other things.

Then he had transferred to Juve, which was horrible mismatch. But usually you get a quick transfer to another top club in this case... van der Sar went to Fulham and spent another 4 seasons there!

And after that - United, universal recognition and tons of goalkeeping/defensive records, culminated with the Anelka save in 2008.
 

Xaviesta

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Van Gaal? He was great at Ajax, but after that, he didn't do very well at Barcelona, the Dutch national team, and again Barcelona. He then became technical director at Ajax, which again ende in misery. That could've been a good moment to retire, but instead, he went on to win the Dutch title at AZ, did pretty well at Bayern, and far exceeded expectations with the Dutch national team. (No need to add what happened after that, I think...)
He may not have been everybody's cup of tea but he did win 4 trophies in his three year spell including two league titles. HIs first stint at Barcelona wasn't bad. His 2nd stint was horrendous.
 

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He may not have been everybody's cup of tea but he did win 4 trophies in his three year spell including two league titles. HIs first stint at Barcelona wasn't bad. His 2nd stint was horrendous.
Yeah, true. I meant that his downside started there, as he did end up getting fired during his third season; but you're right that he didn't do poorly from the start.
 

Bole Top

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I remember Motta was always, and I mean always injured for Barca and later for Atletico, then he got released by them and had unsuccessful trials at Portsmouth and Newcastle after that. apparently only at Genoa they thought he was worth the risk and one year later he was winning everything with Inter. for some reason injuries weren't as frequent as before and it was almost like his career started at 27. also won about 20 trophies with PSG after he turned 30, but the point is that he was actually capable of staying fit and playing.