Players that overstays living off their reputation

[Sky1981]

Carrick
United fans (or probably just me) can't seems to move on from the past, and see that Carrick is not the Carrick of the past. From what I read, people still think he's better than Gerrard, top midfielder in the EPL, while in truth, he probably lost his leg and will not be able to hold our midfield against younger and more energetic player. His passing needs a Scholes type of player and suits possession based team more than the swashbuckling quick play of Manchester United.

Nani
When was the last time he ever perform well for a longer period? We always thinks that he's all that, while he could have probably lost all that.

Cassilas
Well... probably still a very good keeper, but currently he's playing based on his past deeds

Moyes
I'd say he's one of the longest overstayer, taking Everton from 17th to midtable have earned him 10+ years of people thinking he's a miracle worker.

Baressi
Was a Milan legend, but IMO he stepped down a year or two too late, and the last memory I have on him is him being humiliated by Juve in a match they won 6-1 (CMIIW)

Torres
He's a joke, I can't believe how he maintain to be Chelsea main striker and Spain's striker with his awful form.

 

[Globule]

Carrick probably had his best season for us two years ago. Are you really prepared to write him off after last season, when so many of our squad were rubbish?
It's not that people think he's the best midfielder in the world, just that, until we sign more players, he's still one of our best midfielders.
He hasn't overstayed his welcome, because he's welcome until we have better options.

 

[okLaptop1]

Park was pretty rubbish for us in his entire last season, his days of turning up for the big games were behind him and yet he still started all the big fixtures based on past deeds. And he still scored against Arsenal that season

Cassilas
Well... probably still a very good keeper, but currently he's playing based on his past deeds

Debatable.

 

[Lawman]

Park was pretty rubbish for us in his entire last season, his days of turning up for the big games were behind him and yet he still started all the big fixtures based on past deeds. And he still scored against Arsenal that season



Debatable.

He's had a season where he's not first choice. His confidence is low and he has had a dip in form and a poor World Cup. But the man is still a fantastic goal keeper and that shouldn't be up for debate.

 

[okLaptop1]

He's had a season where he's not first choice. His confidence is low and he has had a dip in form and a poor World Cup. But the man is still a fantastic goal keeper and that shouldn't be up for debate.

I guess 12 months of poor form is just poor form and not loss of talent, but if he doesn't rebound soon, then it wouldn't be illogical or unfair to say that he just isn't a great keeper anymore.

 

[Sky1981]

Carrick probably had his best season for us two years ago. Are you really prepared to write him off after last season, when so many of our squad were rubbish?
It's not that people think he's the best midfielder in the world, just that, until we sign more players, he's still one of our best midfielders.
He hasn't overstayed his welcome, because he's welcome until we have better options.

That's why I say he overstays, his age is catching up. If he's in his late 20s we can say it's a dip in form, but at his age, I fear it's more than just form.

We have no better options partly is due to people think he can still does the job.

Off course the player I mentioned didn't just become a grandpa in a year, but they are not the player we thought they are.

 

[Sky1981]

I guess 12 months of poor form is just poor form and not loss of talent, but if he doesn't rebound soon, then it wouldn't be illogical or unfair to say that he just isn't a great keeper anymore.

He's declining, that's for sure, and still he is still a great keeper, but he's just simply not the indisputably best in Spain or Madrid like he was a few years ago

 

[Tarrou]

I still think Carrick can be useful if used correctly. There are most definitely others I'd ship out before him.

 

[devilish]

United players

Nani
Ando
Fletcher
Young

 

[Kazi]

Can't believe Valencia hasn't been mentioned yet. He's finished. Even the Ecuador coach publicly criticised him.

 

[LoiusVanGaal]

Carrick
United fans (or probably just me) can't seems to move on from the past, and see that Carrick is not the Carrick of the past. From what I read, people still think he's better than Gerrard, top midfielder in the EPL, while in truth, he probably lost his leg and will not be able to hold our midfield against younger and more energetic player. His passing needs a Scholes type of player and suits possession based team more than the swashbuckling quick play of Manchester United.

Nani
When was the last time he ever perform well for a longer period? We always thinks that he's all that, while he could have probably lost all that.

Cassilas
Well... probably still a very good keeper, but currently he's playing based on his past deeds

Moyes
I'd say he's one of the longest overstayer, taking Everton from 17th to midtable have earned him 10+ years of people thinking he's a miracle worker.

Baressi
Was a Milan legend, but IMO he stepped down a year or two too late, and the last memory I have on him is him being humiliated by Juve in a match they won 6-1 (CMIIW)

Torres
He's a joke, I can't believe how he maintain to be Chelsea main striker and Spain's striker with his awful form.

Carrick had a bad season but that's possibly because he was asked to play a very negative game because of Moyes? I still think he can offer us something myself.

Nani was injured a lot but he definitely didn't perform when he was fit this is true, always liked him but I would understand if we sold him.

Casillas definitely should move on from Madrid, his Spain form definitely suffered from lack of first team football last season.

Moyes did great with Everton to make them a consistent top 8 side when they don't have the resources of most teams in that position, but he clearly wasn't the right manager for United, we need a manager who can handle the pressure and its clear from last season that Moyes just doesn't do so.

don't know enough to comment tbh.

Torres...just LOL, what more needs be said about him?

 

[ottosec]

Valencia - he's shit for 2 years and he basically plays every game.

 

[R.N7]

Ah, so we didn't actually sign Fellaini, it was just Moyes with a wig on. It all makes so much sense now.

 

[Kaiketsu_Zorro]

This will not be a popular opinion, but for me, Giggs kept on playing too long. Two or three good matches in a season do not justify remaining in the squad. I had a feeling he kept on going only in order to beat the records. Should have retired a few years earlier.

 

[B20]

Casillas has been poor for a few seasons before he was dropped as well.

Excellent example of someone living off reputation.

 

[Sky1981]

Casillas has been poor for a few seasons before he was dropped as well.

Excellent example of someone living off reputation.

That's the mfing word i'm looking for. thank you b20

 

[Sky1981]

This will not be a popular opinion, but for me, Giggs kept on playing too long. Two or three good matches in a season do not justify remaining in the squad. I had a feeling he kept on going only in order to beat the records. Should have retired a few years earlier.

It wasn't that unpopular, although it's kinda sensitive with him being a legend and all that.

 

[Kaiketsu_Zorro]

Yeah, sensitive is probably a much better word to describe this. Anyway, now that Giggs has retired, I'm really looking forward to him working as the assistant coach.

 

[Stack]

What about Carrick is declining?. Its really easy to just say "He is declining" but what exactly is on the decline?. Is his passing worse?, is his first touch getting worse?, is his positional sense getting worse?

 

[ZDwyr]

Surely Johnson for Liverpool has stayed longer than he should. Always seemed to be a liability for them last season. As for United there are a few obvious ones. Ando, Valencia, and Young all certainly have.

 

[louvega]

Big part of the spanish national team.

 

[Ferguson]

Torres stays on because his wages are too high to get rid of him.

 

[Sky1981]

What about Carrick is declining?. Its really easy to just say "He is declining" but what exactly is on the decline?. Is his passing worse?, is his first touch getting worse?, is his positional sense getting worse?

His pace, his passing, and he's just not the same player he used to be.

it could have been many factors to be fair to him, but I think with age catching up, he'll never be the shadow of the player he was a few years ago. Thing is with age catching up, the difference is gradual and slow, he didn't become a zombie overnight, but his overal contribution would have been smaller due to that extra edges he lost along with his age.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

Torres, Rooney, Johnson, Wilshere all good shouts.

 

[Speak]

Torres, Rooney, Johnson, Wilshere all good shouts.

Kind of disagree with everyone of these, except maybe Torres:
I assume you mean for England for the two in bold (Wilshere's an odd choice though, considering the thread is about 'overstaying'.)

Torres is on mega wages, hasn't a great reputation for a while, and for a few years Chelsea seemed to not have a clue which strikers were coming or going. I wouldn't say it was exactly his reputation that kept him around. But the glimmer of hope that he was still a really good player. it's not quite the same as someone like Casillas, who is very much living off his reputation. Some refuse to even admit that he's not all that any more.

For Glen Johnson, it seems more a case of Liverpool settling for him as a relatively experienced England international, until someone better becomes available to them.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

Kind of disagree with everyone of these, except maybe Torres:

I assume you mean for England for the two in bold (Wilshere's an odd choice though, considering the thread is about 'overstaying'.)

Torres is on mega wages, hasn't a great reputation any more, and for a few years Chelsea seemed to not have a clue which strikers were coming or going. I wouldn't say it was exactly his reputation that kept him around. But the glimmer of hope that he was still a really good player.
For Glen Johnson, it seems more a case of Liverpool settling for him as a relatively experienced England international, until someone better becomes available to them.

England mostly, but Rooney was picked for reputation rather than form a lot in the last few seasons, same with Wilshere who I dont see as anything more than a decent player with a habit of being a card magnet.

 

[Stack]

His pace, his passing, and he's just not the same player he used to be.

it could have been many factors to be fair to him, but I think with age catching up, he'll never be the shadow of the player he was a few years ago. Thing is with age catching up, the difference is gradual and slow, he didn't become a zombie overnight, but his overal contribution would have been smaller due to that extra edges he lost along with his age.

This is a nothing answer, it says nothing. You are dreaming shit up again.

 

[Sky1981]

This is a nothing answer, it says nothing. You are dreaming shit up again.

Are you saying that the notion of "human being ageing" is a dreamt up shit?

 

[Plugsy]

England mostly, but Rooney was picked for reputation rather than form a lot in the last few seasons, same with Wilshere who I dont see as anything more than a decent player with a habit of being a card magnet.

A player whose goal scoring record for the past 3 years for club and country has been better than a goal every other game has been picked on reputation? Reputation for scoring a lot perhaps?

 

[Eriksen]

Are you saying that the notion of "human being ageing" is a dreamt up shit?

He's saying that you can't even give real reasons for why you think Carrick has declined, only vague statements that don't actually have any meaning whatsoever. You can't pinpoint aspects of his game that have actually got worse or actually justify why you think this.

 

[Glanville95]

Rooney is a prime example of someone whom his reputation proceeds his ability.

When regarded on here it's either one extreme or the other. Some rate him as a world-class player and top tier striker, while others regard him as little more than average and someone the club would be better off selling. The truth is, both assertions are wide of the mark.

He's quite well rounded and productive in numerous positions, but in all he falls short of the top bracket. He has has had world class seasons when deployed as a #9, but he hasn't played the role regularly for years, so it's doubtful he could familiarise himself in the role and return to the top bracket if he started there and as he's regressed, he doesn't meet the same bracket as Suarez, Ibrahimovic, van Persie, etc.

As a number ten, he consistently has productive numbers that equal many of the most highly regarded attacking midfielders whether it's in terms of goals and/or assists, but he lacks the fundamental attributes in his game to make a more profound contribution to the team and create and dictate like most of the best in that position do. A good player in the role and not poor like some people suggest, but his numbers tally is still impressive.

He's still a very good player and one of the most important players in the team. It would be suicide to sell him when we don't know how van Persie's fitness will hold up next season, Welbeck isn't productive enough to rely on in RVP's absence and Hernandez's future seemingly lies elsewhere. It's difficult to accommodate all three of van Persie, Rooney and Mata without the side being incredibly imbalanced, but he's one of our top five players and with the amount of dross blighting the squad we can't be too picky, particularly when it comes to very good players.

In regards to his status. Pre-RVP, he was the talismanic player in the team and was performing at a very high level, due his longevity and reputation he's cultivated since an early age, his reputation certainly proceeds him. Take into consideration he is also a commercial behemoth of a player and that is definitely the case. I remember when we played Brazil in a friendly and one player said Rooney is the only player who would start for them and dismissed the notion of anyone else - probably on good grounds - but it summed up his reputation universally for those who have only seen snippets or from an early age and don't watch him consistently.

 

[B20]

He's saying that you can't even give real reasons for why you think Carrick has declined, only vague statements that don't actually have any meaning whatsoever. You can't pinpoint aspects of his game that have actually got worse or actually justify why you think this.

He's been shit though. And he's 32.

 

[Eriksen]

He's been shit though. And he's 32.

32 isn't old for a CM who has never relied on pace and the entire United team were crap last year. Put some runners next to him and you could get at least another good season out of him I reckon.

 

[bishblaize]

Carrick

Yeah, stopped reading at this point. Had his best ever season in 12-13 and after one average season when he was expected to play 4-4-2 with Cleverley or Giggs, he's living off his reputation?

Deary me.

 

[Mad Winger]

Carrick

 

[mic.m]

Gary Neville - He was never the same after those injuries in 2007 and 2008. If he hadn't retired Fergie would have continued picking him
Scholes - should have stayed retired. I'll get slagged for it but I'm sticking to my guns.
Giggs - overstayed by 2 seasons. A couple of great CL games in each of those seasons shouldn't fool people
Nani - lack of consistency hampered his time here.
Anderson - stealing a living. His fans used to say he is young. Then they realised he was in his mid 20's and blamed injuries. Then when that was disproved they said he is a fun character to have around the club. Then they realised mascots don't earn 80 stacks a week.
Young - never a United player. Fergie must have had too muh wine.
Moyes- Club let him overstay by 6 months just to prove a point and to not embarass Fergie and Bobby Charlton

 

[B20]

32 isn't old for a CM who has never relied on pace and the entire United team were crap last year. Put some runners next to him and you could get at least another good season out of him I reckon.

It's old if your level drops dramatically. I think people are getting hoodwinked by the likes of Scholes and Pirlo (or even gerrard, who needs the runners next to him to do a good job) doing the business at their age. 32 is the age where you can expect the level of top players to drop and be phased out.

Look at how quickly Xavi has gone.

 

[Kag]

This will not be a popular opinion, but for me, Giggs kept on playing too long. Two or three good matches in a season do not justify remaining in the squad. I had a feeling he kept on going only in order to beat the records. Should have retired a few years earlier.

Don't worry, you're right. Some of Giggs' performances in a two man midfield were downright abominable. We went through a stage of losing almost every match he started. He overstayed his welcome, whether he or Ferguson is to 'blame' for that is the larger issue. I would err to the latter. Neville had to take himself out of the game before Sir Alex did, for example. Usually, he'd be well ahead of the curve.

 

[Zoo]

It's too early to conclude that Carrick has declined. He's a notoriously slow starter and last season was also injured early on. After Christmas the season became a washout for everyone, as the Moyes effect truly kicked in.

 

[Eriksen]

It's old if your level drops dramatically. I think people are getting hoodwinked by the likes of Scholes and Pirlo (or even gerrard, who needs the runners next to him to do a good job) doing the business at their age. 32 is the age where you can expect the level of top players to drop and be phased out.

Look at how quickly Xavi has gone.

Xavi is two years older. At Carrick's age he was still the best central midfielder in the world. Obviously he's infinitely more talented but still.


He is getting on and is probably declining - but already "living off reputation"? Incredibly harsh, he's had one poor season when the rest of his team were also extremely bad. Season before that he was the best midfielder in the league that season.

Gerrard has shown that if you have runners doing most of the work you can still do a job. That's with him always relying more on physical attributes than Carrick who has always been a pace dictator rather than the more all action midfielder that Gerrard used to be. 32 is getting on a bit but as a CM with the energy of Herrera (and maybe Vidal?) in a midfield 3 he could still do very well I reckon. Those two would do all the running. Even without Vidal and with a cheaper option it'd work fine.

I don't think he's done yet. I don't think its fair to base United players off last season and last season only. It was a year in which everyone under performed under a donkey of a manager, bar a couple of players.

Carrick is still one of the very rare English midfielders that can keep possession.