When did I say players are under or overpaid? You made out if players didn’t het paid what other players do, then they would. You said it as though you knew its fact? You shouldn’t persume accuse players of doing something when you have no evidence of them doing so.
Playing for the shirt, not the manager
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The vast majority of these players were 'playing for the manager'. Meaning that they don't care who the manager is and simply get on with their job.
Our poor performances were down to player quality and manager tactics/selection. Our defensive midfielder was completely out of his depth and the managers tactics completely exposed him. Our yearly injury crisis in defence meant we had to play jokes like Jones and Rojo that made us even worse at the back.
This was a failed experiment by the manager. He tried to sacrifice the defence for the attack and we just ended up being shite in attack and defence. That is because the manager doesn't know how to coach positional play, he's not that type of manager. He coaches defence and counter attacking.
Its a massive exaggeration to say the players downed tools, we're in 6th place and roughly in the same spot as in 16/17. Not fighting relegation.
Our poor performances were down to player quality and manager tactics/selection. Our defensive midfielder was completely out of his depth and the managers tactics completely exposed him. Our yearly injury crisis in defence meant we had to play jokes like Jones and Rojo that made us even worse at the back.
This was a failed experiment by the manager. He tried to sacrifice the defence for the attack and we just ended up being shite in attack and defence. That is because the manager doesn't know how to coach positional play, he's not that type of manager. He coaches defence and counter attacking.
Its a massive exaggeration to say the players downed tools, we're in 6th place and roughly in the same spot as in 16/17. Not fighting relegation.
There are far too many cases of people on here equating their run of the mill day job to that of professional athletes. Understandable of course that some will perform better under one manager than another, but a lot of people’s problems are to do with just phoning it in when times are bad. There’s a basic standard to be met regardless of who the manager is.
Exactly. Players are not robots.
Imagine working for the company not the boss
When I said we would have more commitment from players from "these shores", I was referring to Manchester United and its history.
The Treble winning side was primarily made of 'local' players.
Compare to players like Pogba and Martial.
Ole said the important words.
"Its about the History of the club and the supporters"
btw Ole understood that playing for Fergie. He mentioned Sir Matt and his gaffer Fergie. This was absorbed by him from all around him. The only foreign player we have now who 'gets it' is Herrera.
It was clear in the last few months the players had 'downed tools' as correctly put by @Moriarty
Van Gaal and Mourinho looked at it as a job. I wont mention Moyes who was an idiot.
Whatever the tactics, you give your All for the Club and supporters, especially the travelling lads.
I'm very hopeful with Ole, the players will understand what he knows.
The Treble winning side was primarily made of 'local' players.
Compare to players like Pogba and Martial.
Ole said the important words.
"Its about the History of the club and the supporters"
btw Ole understood that playing for Fergie. He mentioned Sir Matt and his gaffer Fergie. This was absorbed by him from all around him. The only foreign player we have now who 'gets it' is Herrera.
It was clear in the last few months the players had 'downed tools' as correctly put by @Moriarty
Van Gaal and Mourinho looked at it as a job. I wont mention Moyes who was an idiot.
Whatever the tactics, you give your All for the Club and supporters, especially the travelling lads.
I'm very hopeful with Ole, the players will understand what he knows.
Ole said in his interview that everyone starts with a clean slate. This is my view of the players. What happened in the past, is in the past. Play for the rest of the season like I expect you to play, and I am happy, don't, and you can f**k off at the end of the season.
The manager all day as a player.. Just have be adaptable to every new managers demands.. The badge doesn't select players.
Im afraid these lads are not soldiers but footballers.
Im afraid these lads are not soldiers but footballers.
I don't get what it means either. Do they want to suggest that the players should not follow the instructions from the current manager and play their own way when the game starts? How are they supposed to do that? Have secret training sessions and team meetings where they decide on a style of play and practice on that?
"Play for the shirt", "have pride in the badge" , etc. - is all hackneyed nonsense that most of the time sounds good only in TV studios. It's not easy when a manager's instructions are not getting through. It's not easy to motivate yourself when the manager spends every talking minute criticizing you and telling the world that you are simply not good enough. It's a create a toxic work culture, and those of us who have experience of working in such environments know how tough it is to perform to your utmost under those conditions.
"Play for the shirt", "have pride in the badge" , etc. - is all hackneyed nonsense that most of the time sounds good only in TV studios. It's not easy when a manager's instructions are not getting through. It's not easy to motivate yourself when the manager spends every talking minute criticizing you and telling the world that you are simply not good enough. It's a create a toxic work culture, and those of us who have experience of working in such environments know how tough it is to perform to your utmost under those conditions.
Half of our players would not understand what SAF is talking about, his English is something else.
On a serious note, I doubt there are players in our club who do not give a feck about football, about doing their jobs well. These guys are breathing football from the age of 5-7, and made their carerrs all the way up to Man United and respective National teams. They hate losing. Manager and coaching team are key to players performances. Unfortunately, the toxic cnut Jose has drained most of the positivity and you can already feel that Ole is already restoring some of it. We will see a different United today, I am sure.
Football is a game as much as it is a job. You can't compare football players with other profession like doctor or police. I can understand why players don't like it when their manager is toxic. But when you go out there, it is a game of football. Nobody would like to lose in a game of football, losing isn't fun.
If some players decided They don't like the manager, it's fine. But if you keep losing the ball on purpose or put only 30% of what you're capable of just to make the team and the manager look bad, then it's a loser mentality and just as toxic as the manager. Ronaldo didn't like Jose either but that didn't make him to play like a loser on the field.
The point is, We should not expect players to play for the shirt as They aren't fans. We expect them to play football. Oh? your manager is a shit coat? well, it's still a game of football out there, Why don't you play?
If some players decided They don't like the manager, it's fine. But if you keep losing the ball on purpose or put only 30% of what you're capable of just to make the team and the manager look bad, then it's a loser mentality and just as toxic as the manager. Ronaldo didn't like Jose either but that didn't make him to play like a loser on the field.
The point is, We should not expect players to play for the shirt as They aren't fans. We expect them to play football. Oh? your manager is a shit coat? well, it's still a game of football out there, Why don't you play?
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true take Phelan as an example. His magic shorts brought so many honours to the club and yet you barely see him wearing them anymore.
I think 'playing for the shirt' meant giving full commitment and being totally professional giving it your all always, being discipline and try to always give best performances. Keyword is always try to do just that. Whether the player really love the club or not doesn't matter. There are players who doesn't have affection about the club and still give it their all. Obviously having affection to the club helps with the motivation.
It's not just footballers, we can see that kind of pattern at any kind of jobs -- there are those who are fully committed irrespective of the environment/boss (former), and those whose performances are highly depended on the environment and especially the boss/manager (latter). It's normal.
Manager is the biggest factor.
A good balance of respectfulness, responsibility, strictness and leniency is ideal for the whole team to perform, both but especially to the latter. Having that annoying boss or rubbish shitty irresponsible manager have huge impact though, the former will try but still have their performances dip, while the latter will either don't care or just taking it easy cutting corners et all. Getting these kind of boss is a dream, but realistically, no boss is perfect, they shall always have their bad days and make mistakes. Getting a decent one that is almost like this ideal good manager is good enough. Being positive at least is a good start.
Either a decent effective manager or a positive manager.
Come on, let's admit it, when your boss is shit or the working environment is depressing, you don't feel the motivation to perform your work well. It's just not comfortable, discomforting feeling. Depressing even. Difficult to perform nor keeping your professionalism/discipline with this one. We may even escape from work, working lazily, and to some of us, gets emotional breakdown/outbursts. It's like a test of patience.
Reason you stay is more to get the necessary financial rewards to continue living. Let's say you really love your work, it still feels hard to get up early in the morning going to work letting your boss do shitty things on you, or even cannot sleep well at night because the next day you'll be facing the endless cycle of annoying boss having a constant go at you. Often than not, you'll be blame actively, always, or even told to do this and that, even the ones not within your job description, like a servant/slave. It's better if this boss make an efficient working system, but in the case he/she is so clueless about it resulting in a shit system, yeap, the same case, you will be blamed, the boss won't take any responsibility, why because the boss thinks his/her system is perfect. In addition, when your boss is having a bad that, for sure you'll be on the receiving end.
It's like bullying, letting ourselves to become the victim of bully for money. That's the active bossy boss.
The more passive bossy boss, is the lazy type who will skip working hours while throwing the team he/she's supposed to be leading giving them all the works, while this shitty boss just chill around probably holidays somewhere or going to fancy places/restaurants on a date, while we're here working in this confusing system of working environment. Then, when something bad happened, we will always be the ones to be blamed. Like where were you damnit. More often that not, this boss make a shitty system of working environment, confusing as hell, which affects our performances even further.
Morale Damages.
At the end of the day, it's still to get money, life sustenance.
Why stay at a depressing job, or working for a shit boss. The only thing we can do is if my boss is having a go at us, we'll reply in kind with a shit performances of work. I'm not paid enough for this shit to be blame, abused, used as a slave tool or punching bag, etc. If my boss is not performing giving it his/her all, then why should we. If the boss is a clueless idiot, we're on a downward spiral, sinking ship. The nice ones among us, the types that always try to give it their all, will still have problems at work, and at times will always have emotional burst, or emotional breakdown anyway, while the other types will cut corners.
Doesn't matter if you love the company, if your boss is shit, your performances dip.
In football, doesn't matter if you love the club, if your manager/coach is shit, same thing, performances will dip.
Players are still human beings.
It's not just footballers, we can see that kind of pattern at any kind of jobs -- there are those who are fully committed irrespective of the environment/boss (former), and those whose performances are highly depended on the environment and especially the boss/manager (latter). It's normal.
Manager is the biggest factor.
A good balance of respectfulness, responsibility, strictness and leniency is ideal for the whole team to perform, both but especially to the latter. Having that annoying boss or rubbish shitty irresponsible manager have huge impact though, the former will try but still have their performances dip, while the latter will either don't care or just taking it easy cutting corners et all. Getting these kind of boss is a dream, but realistically, no boss is perfect, they shall always have their bad days and make mistakes. Getting a decent one that is almost like this ideal good manager is good enough. Being positive at least is a good start.
Either a decent effective manager or a positive manager.
Come on, let's admit it, when your boss is shit or the working environment is depressing, you don't feel the motivation to perform your work well. It's just not comfortable, discomforting feeling. Depressing even. Difficult to perform nor keeping your professionalism/discipline with this one. We may even escape from work, working lazily, and to some of us, gets emotional breakdown/outbursts. It's like a test of patience.Reason you stay is more to get the necessary financial rewards to continue living. Let's say you really love your work, it still feels hard to get up early in the morning going to work letting your boss do shitty things on you, or even cannot sleep well at night because the next day you'll be facing the endless cycle of annoying boss having a constant go at you. Often than not, you'll be blame actively, always, or even told to do this and that, even the ones not within your job description, like a servant/slave. It's better if this boss make an efficient working system, but in the case he/she is so clueless about it resulting in a shit system, yeap, the same case, you will be blamed, the boss won't take any responsibility, why because the boss thinks his/her system is perfect. In addition, when your boss is having a bad that, for sure you'll be on the receiving end.
It's like bullying, letting ourselves to become the victim of bully for money. That's the active bossy boss.
The more passive bossy boss, is the lazy type who will skip working hours while throwing the team he/she's supposed to be leading giving them all the works, while this shitty boss just chill around probably holidays somewhere or going to fancy places/restaurants on a date, while we're here working in this confusing system of working environment. Then, when something bad happened, we will always be the ones to be blamed. Like where were you damnit. More often that not, this boss make a shitty system of working environment, confusing as hell, which affects our performances even further.
Morale Damages.
At the end of the day, it's still to get money, life sustenance.
Why stay at a depressing job, or working for a shit boss. The only thing we can do is if my boss is having a go at us, we'll reply in kind with a shit performances of work. I'm not paid enough for this shit to be blame, abused, used as a slave tool or punching bag, etc. If my boss is not performing giving it his/her all, then why should we. If the boss is a clueless idiot, we're on a downward spiral, sinking ship. The nice ones among us, the types that always try to give it their all, will still have problems at work, and at times will always have emotional burst, or emotional breakdown anyway, while the other types will cut corners.
Doesn't matter if you love the company, if your boss is shit, your performances dip.
In football, doesn't matter if you love the club, if your manager/coach is shit, same thing, performances will dip.
Players are still human beings.
TLDR/
1. Manager is the biggest factor, thus 'playing for the manager'.
2. 'Playing for the shirt' = give full commitment. Genuinely loving the club helps, but if no love at club, there are players who still give full commitment.
3. Players either the types who always try to be fully committed giving their all, or the types that lets manager/environment affects their performance.
Either way,
4. a shit manager will affects both type of players, morale damaging -- expect players to have a huge drop level of performances.
5. a decent effective and/or positive manager helps boosts the morale of team by a huge lot, and thus at least good active attempts by team wanting to try to perform better and better.
At the end of day,
6. Players are still humans.
7. Essentially it's a work/job, Ideally it can be a career.
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You're unbelievably naive. I currently work under a toxic boss for one of the top hospitals in the country. Everyone is like zombies doing the minimum required for the patients and just getting paid. A lot of the guys are looking at exit strategy, some are toughing it out because the pay is good while some keep getting into the boss face and suspensions thrown back at them. Personally, I love my paycheck and am laying low hoping to outlast the boss. Sound familiar?
If only am from UK.
I get what you are saying and you are not wrong. The difference though is that they have a limited time as professional footballers. They have around 10 years to make an impact in their careers so why you would waste a year or two on downing tools is hard for me to understand.
This. My current boss reminds me a lot of Moyes. Hilariously unqualified for the job and doesn't have a particularly magnetic personality that's fun or interesting to be around. Just an all-round trainwreck, really. It's amazing how much bad leadership affects performance in a team environment. I've seen some of the most motivated people I've met, who were also tremendous at motivating others, just wither like dead flowers in his presence. They quickly realized they didn't even want to be in the same room as him and found new jobs within a few months. Most of my other co-workers are also actively looking for new jobs.
I can only imagine what it's like to have to be around a person as toxic as Mourinho on a day to day basis. It doesn't matter if you're a footballer earning millions. Those personalities can suck the life out of anyone. The fact that Mourinho has fallen out with every single club he's been with within three seasons speaks volumes about what kind of person he is. We were all ridiculing Chelsea's players for how mentally fragile they were when they downed tools in his last stint there, but they proved to everyone that they were a title-winning squad soon after and that they were just being held down by the sheer cnutishness of the guy.
Playing for the badge/club/fans etc etc is a massive footballing nonsense cliché.
I don't believe that any of the players simply were not trying, but history has shown us time and again how big a difference it makes when the manager and players are aligned together.
When you consider the difference between winning and losing in elite level sport is a small margin, that's where it becomes important that athletes are at the absolute top of their game, and it's the manager's job to make sure they're getting every last percent out of them. Something you're going to struggle to do if the relationship breaks down.
I don't believe that any of the players simply were not trying, but history has shown us time and again how big a difference it makes when the manager and players are aligned together.
When you consider the difference between winning and losing in elite level sport is a small margin, that's where it becomes important that athletes are at the absolute top of their game, and it's the manager's job to make sure they're getting every last percent out of them. Something you're going to struggle to do if the relationship breaks down.
And I really do not think lack of effort has been the problem this season. Heck there has been a few gritty wins and comeback this season. But, the biggest issues has been just a lack of structure and cohesion with the side which has to come back to whatever is going on on the training ground. And it that case it comes back to the manager.
Exactly.
As I have said many times it is about getting the right players with the right character.
Pride, passion and an unstoppable desire to continually improve and the will to win at all costs.
Both City and Liverpool have far more of these than we do.
And when you consider his last 3 clubs we are talking about maybe 50-60 players that were at some point fed up with the same man. These players come from different cultural background, had different education and different ages. It would be incredibly unfortunate if the common denominator wasn't the cause of the issue.
Today on "any excuse possible"
Maybe players should be paid on a performance basis. That might change a few attitudes among players and fans alike.
Maybe players should be paid on a performance basis. That might change a few attitudes among players and fans alike.
Eh, another one with some shite like "we would be the best if we play local lads". No we wouldn't. Every single big team in England is a perfect example, especially City and Liverpool. They have barely any English players. They play for money and the manager, not for the badge or history of the club.
Playing football is ultimately a job and no one performs to their best under a boss with poor/toxic man management skills.
Using players from the Fergie era as a stick to beat the current lot is misguided nostalgia. They were playing under one of the greatest sporting man managers of all time. A lot of them looked a lot less fired up when playing for dolts at international level like Schteeve.
Using players from the Fergie era as a stick to beat the current lot is misguided nostalgia. They were playing under one of the greatest sporting man managers of all time. A lot of them looked a lot less fired up when playing for dolts at international level like Schteeve.
I am more baffled by the fact that we as a team often covered much less ground than our opponent every match. I think the players look lazy or not giving their best just due to Mou's instruction. It is clear that he often wanted discipline when in defense instead of pressing.
You can see sometimes one of the front 3 pressing while the others just stay back. It is down to the incoherence of tactics. They are just not well coached and lack communication imo.
You can see sometimes one of the front 3 pressing while the others just stay back. It is down to the incoherence of tactics. They are just not well coached and lack communication imo.
My sense is that a lot of crap gets talked about players "downing tools", not playing for the manager etc. as if players are constantly scheming. I think people underestimate the psychological effect on players of being part of a failing side. They go on about whether players "look like they're playing for the shirt" but I can't think of too many examples of big sides where month after month the tactics are hopeless, the selections are all wrong, the style of play isn't coming together but the players still all look like they are 100% up for it. There comes a point when the manager's plan doesn't seem to be working out but you have to stick with your ineffective instructions when your belief dies a bit. Players just inevitably look flat when all reasons to have faith in the current system have evaporated and confidence is low,
Errrmmmm.... Nevile has talked about himself and the players he played with 'playing for the shirt'. I think you answered your own question.
Bullshit. If your manager, in an everyday job, treats you like garbage you complain, you take it to HR and deal with it appropriately. You do NOT down tools as the manager doesn't employ you, the company does.
I'm not saying our players did under perform on purpose but if they did, they should be ashamed of themselves. There are thousands upon thousands of supporters who pay good money to watch their team perform, entertain and give everything whenever they were that iconic red shirt. I don't go to OT but my Sky subscription, for example, is purely to watch United every time they are on - that shit costs like £700-£800 a year. To the average Joe like me, that amount of money actually means a lot - it may not mean anything to the likes of Pogba, Sanchez or whoever else.
My point is no player should ever down tools. The club employs them and pays their salary, not the manager.
Moreover, Mourinho also comes under this category. He also had the duty of setting this team up to do the above and he failed. By the end of his tenure, it looked as if he was purposely sabotaging the club and he was rightly sacked. Fortunately for our players (if true) they won't face that punishment yet (at least for some of them).
I'm amazed that George Best is still kept in such high regard!
I can't see no real evidence of "downing tools". I definitely saw low confidence and fear in the players. Fear to make a mistake. There were a few times, especially after the Newcastle game this year, if they wanted Jose gone, then they did not need to perform in that match. They followed it up with a decent performance against Chelsea and latter a never die attitude win against Juve.
The reality is, it just caught up on players. Players getting constant bashing for the manager will give you an attitude of, "anything I do is not good enough". These aren't the conditions for anyone to perform, especially top athlete's.
You’d only be amazed if you failed to acknowledge the difference between the sport now and 55 years ago. Or neglected that some people in all sports, for a variety of reasons, sustain a legendary status as flawed geniuses.
His only period of success as a player was under Sir Matt. Why couldn’t he be bothered for the other managers he had?
George best had massive problems, with alcohol, mentally, with fame. He was an incredibly flawed man playing in a different era entirely and as I said, there are some people whose legend is sustained because of their flaws as much as their talent, they usually have had a gravitas that intrigued the public.
What about Cantona? He only seemed to be managed well by two managers. Why not the rest? Would you say that had anything to with the way the managers treated him? Everyone knows Saf treated him differently to all the rest of the players. Why?
I’d say cantona Is also close to what I describe in terms of being a maverick, though in England I know Leeds did not want him to leave and Ferguson absolutely loved him. Did he call him the best pro he’s had? Or something close. Can’t say I know much about his relationship with managers in Ligue 1, just that his national team one was fractious.