Possession

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

The point is that every manager since LVG has bought close to an entire new team of players.
So bit bizarre to blame it on the players, as if it is them, it’s about 30 players in that case.

So surely it’s either the coaching, else the recruitment?

Then we simply did not understand each other:

It is not bizarre to point out one manager in 8 years out of 6 has managed to consistently produce consistent possession football out of our players. It's our reality.

It's not bizzare to point out that careless loss of possession has been a hall mark of the United side under 5 of the 6 managers. Especiailly under the recent 4! Who have incidentally shared a good number of these same players during each of those reigns.

Furthermore pointing out it's a player personnel issue does not neccesitate that I'm blaming the players alone.

To argue that blatantly ignores the 3 footballing changes of direction in that period, the refusal for the board to fully commit to ANY of those footballing changes, then the resultant half measure recruitment ensuring a squad full of groups of players suited to dimetrically opposing styles of play make up the squads.

Rather pointing out ' it's a player issue not a coaching one" is simply sumarrising the 3 issues above. Till recruitment is structured competently and given one footballing direction, under a given manage, with all replacements if/ he fails wedded to that singular direction. The current collection of players can NEVER achieve the consistency in possesion that many crave. Even at their best they will be erratic on the ball.

It's time as fans to accept we need a genuine over haul of the players making our playing squad. If we want to see sustained success under any manager going forward. This one included.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Then we simply did not understand each other:

It is not bizarre to point out one manager in 8 years out of 6 has managed to consistentlymaking uponsistent possession football out of our players. Its our reality.

It's not bizzare to point out that careless loss of possession has been a hall mark of the United side under 5 of the 6 managers. Especiailly under the recent 4! Who have incidentally shared a good number of these same players during each of those reigns.

Furthermore pointing out it's a player personnel issue does not neccesitate that I'm blaming the players alone.

To argue that blatantly ignores the 3 footballing changes of direction in that period, the refusal for the board to fully commit to ANY of those footballing changes, then the resultant half measure recruitment ensuring a squad full of groups of players suited to dimetrically opposing styles of play make up the squads.

Rather pointing out ' it's a player issue not a coaching one" is simply sumarrising the 3 issues above. Till recruitment is structured competently and given one footballing direction, under a given manage, with all replacements if/ he fails wedded to that singular direction. The current collection of players can NEVER achieve the consistency in possesion that many crave. Even at their best they will be erratic on the ball.

It's time as fans to accept we need a genuine over haul of the players making our playing squad. If we want to see sustained success under any manager going forward. This one included.

I mean, that’s a fevking long winded way of agreeing that it’s a recruitment issue rather than a player issue.

We’ve signed somewhere between 25-35 first team players since LVG, and let a similar amount go. No manager, certainly not fecking Mourinho nor Ole was ever qualified or has ever been inclined to coach possession football.
So there’s an argument for sure that ETH is failing at it because he’s still left having to play some of Ole’s squad, but he’s bought 7 of his own players in an attempt to accomplish this and even when they’ve featured, we’ve been going backwards in that sense for over a year now.

So yeah, absolutely there’s some cross over issues still from Ole to ETH with some personnel but I can absolutely understand why some simply can’t see it changing, not least when the managers tactics seem absolute nuts for anyone concerned about possession football.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Why do you have to go from one extreme to the other? Can the answer not lie somewhere in the middle?

don’t think it’s too much to ask of a Man Utd team to merely resemble a premier league outfit with the ball at feet.

It's not too much of an ask. The problem is our fans openly pretend to desire TRUE "possesion football". When what they truly desire is prime Dortmund Klopp's gegen pressing heavy metal style. From managers who will NEVER play that way coaching a group players who can't execute it neither.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I mean, that’s a fevking long winded way of agreeing that it’s a recruitment issue rather than a player issue.

heh

 

[Dannn411]

Why can't we keep the ball?

1. The formation and the style we play. Basically Zero positional discipline with everyone pushed up into the opposition half all the time whenever we have the ball will never result in us controlling games. Possession is about positional discipline as much as anything and we do not have one single iota of it in this team. Even as bad as the team is now, it can still be structured to keep the ball better but that is down to having a manager who recognises the importance of having the ball most of the time.

2. The players. To play possession-based football you ultimately need a squad of players who are comfortable and assured on the ball. We have at most two players in a squad of 20-25 who are truly assured on the ball and one is an 18-yr old. As with you, I think midfield is front and centre as the primary issue which is why I believe that we need to sell every midfielder bar Mainoo this summer and just start all over again in that area of the team. Literally only Mainoo is assured on the ball in midfield. That is a disgrace considering how much money has been blown on that department of the team and it will require a total demolition and reconstruction job to get us back to respectability again. I think once the midfield is sorted, you will see a dramatic and instant improvement in ball retention and tempo control all over the pitch.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I think part of our cultures problem is understanding the importance of those passes. I remember the more recent Italy Vs England final, and they were doing exactly that, and we couldn't deal with it. Granted their attacking players were shockingly bad, but their general possession game was so far ahead of ours.

Excellent point. Many of our fans at United too mostly do not like nor umderstand the subtlety of recycling possession even "seemingly pointlessly" as their side works out a course of attack or shift in game strategy.

 

[redshaw]

Worth a try, just ordered a ouija board and will hand it in at Carrington.

 

[NoPace]

Probably not, because he could just give it straight to Kroos/Modric to do something.

I don't know if the numbers back this up but it also felt like they gave him the ball way less. He was mostly standing next to an opposing player (sometimes even the other team's DM if he was the best passer) rather than open to receive a pass when it was turned over, and the other 7 outfield players were looking first to play a ball to Kroos or Modric even if they were only half open since Kroos can one touch pass under pressure (with either foot) and Modric can do it with his right (and like a lefty with the inside of his boot) or dribble out of half-pressure.

 

[JeffFromHK]

The fans have been a problem - some posters here even deny that we have a possession problem and think it is fine or think it will be fixed with Shaw/Martinez/Hojlund back

 

[Sky1981]

It's the culture, smaller teams changes tactics with new manager. Ours is rotten culturally the whole group seems to resist playing a certain style

 

[Bondi77]

With Bruno, Casemiro and Varane as main players in our starting team we are anti-possession.

 

[Teja]

because we are set up to play high and fast transition football

This.

I wonder what the thinking is though - is it because we can't actually keep the ball if we slow it down? Or because we can't break down defences?

 

[Baneofthegame]

It’s the easy passes that infuriate me the most, we can’t even make simple passes around to one another, so many yesterday that just consistently either went out of play or were just poor passes in general that were difficult to receive.

 

[VP89]

Park your robotics at the door please.

We were awful at home against a shit side. 50/50 possession and they looked more dangerous from open play.

You said we can't string two passes together. So you agree you're taking bollocks there? Just to be clarify, becuase you can't put together more passes than the opposition and not string more than 2 passes together yourself.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

It’s the easy passes that infuriate me the most, we can’t even make simple passes around to one another, so many yesterday that just consistently either went out of play or were just poor passes in general that were difficult to receive.

The McTominay one to put Rashford through in the second half yesterday had me raging.

 

[Lee565]

Lvg had us playing possession football with smalling, valencia, young, fellaini, de gea and rashford in the same side, but Ten hag can't do the same with varane and casimero (two players that played in the best madrid side and both first team players for France and brazil), plus dalot, onana, shaw, Antony (his must buy) and rashford...

I don't buy either that bruno is a poor passing, he is one of our best passers but it's his tendency for the Hollywood pass and forcing thing quickly that let's him down but believe he is instructed to do so by both ole and ten hag who want to play quick transition football and because of their poor coaching have to rely on individual moments

 

[Hammondo]

Lvg had us playing possession football with smalling, valencia, young, fellaini, de gea and rashford in the same side, but Ten hag can't do the same with varane and casimero (two players that played in the best madrid side and both first team players for France and brazil), plus dalot, onana, shaw, Antony (his must buy) and rashford...

I don't buy either that bruno is a poor passing, he is one of our best passers but it's his tendency for the Hollywood pass and forcing thing quickly that let's him down but believe he is instructed to do so by both ole and ten hag who want to play quick transition football and because of their poor coaching have to rely on individual moments

We had Carrick though.

 

[90 + 5min]

The fans won't accept possession football. String more than 4 passes* together and all you hear is them crying "attack attack attack".

* Granted, we've not managed to do that in a while so it may no longer be true.

Fans are never accepting anything. Just constant dislike whatever our managers do. We had a great possession manager in VanGaal but people got bored. Our fans want to play with 10 attackers, holding ball for 80 minutes and winning 7-0. Every game.

 

[Scandi Red]

You said we can't string two passes together.

It's a common expression/figure of speech used to describe teams that are poor at passing the ball around.

 

[Green55]

The McTominay one to put Rashford through in the second half yesterday had me raging.

I couldn't believe that too - such an easy pass to make

 

[Laurencio]

Did Casemiro give the ball away as much when he was at Real?

He was never asked to make these kind of passes. He's quite good when he gets to pass it short all the time.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

There were moments of good passing play yesterday but also alot of poor individual moments. Mainly from Casemiro and McTominay. I missed the first half an hour but checked the score about 17 mins in or so. By that point we had 70% possession. It’s not unthinkable to see us purposely sot back and hit Everton, who are kow forced forward, on the counter where we’re still at our most dangerous. Should have paid off more than it did too.

 

[Ish]

The point is that every manager since LVG has bought close to an entire new team of players.
So bit bizarre to blame it on the players, as if it is them, it’s about 30 players in that case.

So surely it’s either the coaching, else the recruitment?

Yeah I’d say recruitment - lack of vision & strategy right at the top being the main issue. It doesn’t necessarily absolve coaching either but I’d say targeting someone like FdJ and ending up with a player like Casemiro just about sums it all up.

 

[Ish]

He was never asked to make these kind of passes. He's quite good when he gets to pass it short all the time.

Yeah, any DM surrounded by Modric and Kroos wouldn’t really need to do anything other than a 5 yard pass.

 

[VP89]

It's a common expression/figure of speech used to describe teams that are poor at passing the ball around.

No, it's bullshit hyperbole.

 

[Laurencio]

Yeah, any DM surrounded by Modric and Kroos wouldn’t really need to do anything other than a 5 yard pass.

Not only that, he's very good at one-twos. Short passes suits his style and passing ability the best, and would be fine in a posession system too really. No idea why we have him try "playmaker passes" all the time.

 

[Oranges038]

You can dominate possession without being boring.

Utd just have too many technically limited and low IQ footballers to be able to achieve anything resembling a possession based a approach to the game.

 

[Scandi Red]

No, it's bullshit hyperbole.

Hyperbole/figure of speech/whatever: no one means it literally.

 

[Grande]

The biggest mistake ETH made was abandoning his principles to suit a group of underperforming players instead of making the wholesale changes that were required in order to make us a competent team in possession.


When your main players in the team are guys that need space to be effective and don't respect keeping hold of the ball like Bruno and Rashford, you can't control games. Signings like Casemiro don't help either.

If you look at how the public and media react to 8w 1d 2l since new year, and the butchering of even changes made (Antony, Mount, Casemiro etc etc), how do you think the reactions would be if we instead of buying ten players for 300m spread the same summover twenty players, and having more mediocre players trying to implement a new style under this barrahe of changes? We would possibly be fighting relegation now, with a bit more pointless possession and getting slaughtered 5-0 every otjer month. Ten Hag would have been out the door long ago.

Solskjær and Rangnick both tried to implement more proactive pressing and more proactive possession and failed due to having the wrong profile and quality of players. Ten Hag tried last year and did well. This year, it would make little sense.

A uear of chopping and changing makes all the routines and relations go out the window. It’s impossible to throw in a bunch of newcomers and play possesion football in that scenario. Liverpool players have been playing Kloppball for years, so they canplay the same football with a lot of reserves on the pitch. in 2017, they couldn’t. It takes a lot of time to build a squad that can dominate games and win in a period of injuries, for anyone. People discussing playing style when we have won 8 in 11 and still has almost a team in the stands and lack players that are as central for our game as Van Dijk is for Kloppball, they are wasting their time.

 

[House Mkhitaryan]

It's positioning and tactics. When you watch other sides, whether top of the table or fighting relegation, it looks so much easier for them to work the ball out from defense and keep possession.

United always seem to be at a disadvantage, outnumbered and forced to make an extraordinary pass or bit of skill to work the ball free. That's how our tactics are setting these players up for failure. A well coached side puts the players in the best position to succeed, but we are seeing the exact opposite of that happening now.

 

[Reiver]

I don't know if we've ever been a possession based team apart from when LvG was manager

 

[Remember the geese]

I don't know if we've ever been a possession based team apart from when LvG was manager

Better hurry up and be one. The best teams are the ones who dominate possession.

 

[bondsname]

Great point, i wish someone would say this to goldbridge. Everything now is on the players and the manager is absolved of any blame according to him. Luton and burnley both dominated possession against us and have worse players

Ten Hag can’t do anything about Casemiro giving the ball away 5 times a game and Rashford running with the ball out of play or having terrible decision making. Or the fact he inherited the most injury prone squad ever. He can’t do anything about Maguire’s brainfarts either.

 

[Remember the geese]

Ten Hag can’t do anything about Casemiro giving the ball away 5 times a game and Rashford running with the ball out of play or having terrible decision making. Or the fact he inherited the most injury prone squad ever. He can’t do anything about Maguire’s brainfarts either.

Ah that's ok then.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It's the culture, smaller teams changes tactics with new manager. Ours is rotten culturally the whole group seems to resist playing a certain style

This is what I think. LVG put an imprint on the team but he is a force of nature by himself and also he had a number of the ex successful United players like old Rooney who would have kept the dressing room in check.

Mou had control when Zlatan was fit and Rooney was still around although he was solidly a sub by then but as soon as they both left in 17/18 we descended into an absolute state looking back.

Small teams change styles quickly because their players have no safety net, they aren’t already on £100k a week or more and don’t think they’ve made it. The challenge of the big managers is to get the big names working off the ball, balancing the egos and shipping out those who weaken their grip on the team. United have only just restarted doing this and the resistance form certain players is palpable even from the stands when you watch us.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Hyperbole/figure of speech/whatever: no one means it literally.

You are wasting your time. The other person would rather argue about your sentence that counter any real point you made.

“We are shit at passing”
“Yeah but for 5 minutes at the Etihad we passed it around so we are clearly not mate!! You are talking shite”

 

[Rista]

Fans are never accepting anything. Just constant dislike whatever our managers do. We had a great possession manager in VanGaal but people got bored. Our fans want to play with 10 attackers, holding ball for 80 minutes and winning 7-0. Every game.

Almost as if what you do with possession matters as well. Didn't create much and scored very little: "these fans are never happy".

 

[Santoryo]

You are wasting your time. The other person would rather argue about your sentence that counter any real point you made.

“We are shit at passing”
“Yeah but for 5 minutes at the Etihad we passed it around so we are clearly not mate!! You are talking shite”

Ten Hag probably winked at him once, so he decided to dedicate his entire time on the Caf defending him and pretending he hasn't underperformed both stylistically and result wise.

 

[Maticmaker]

Active possession requires players to be able to receive the ball and to distribute it effectively, to do this most players have to be prepared to look for and to move into space (e.g. Scholsey past master), as well as being able to control/play the ball competently with either foot, it does not mean only wanting to receive the ball to feet!

If you watch teams who have good possession stats, at any given time/instance in the game at least 7/8 of the outfield players (with some teams its 9/10 outfield players) are actually on the move at the same time, looking for space, moving to adjust to patterns of play etc. This does not happen with our current team, for a number of our players it is only when they perceive the ball might be coming their way do most players start to move, or adjust their positions.

There is a lack of pass-an-move in our main play, it only ever seems to have some success out wide, with fullbacks overlapping, etc. it's virtually absent down the middle since Mata left. Bruno does try to activate some pass and move actions, but he has to be here, there and everywhere to try to stimulate a reaction from his colleagues, in different areas this need for his constant movement disrupts any attempt at fixed patterns of play forming, also Bruno's own distribution can be wayward at times, which visibly reduces confidence of his team mates.
It was assumed (by me at least) that players like Donny, Sancho and now Mount had been brought in to supplement Bruno and to develop effective patterns of pass an move, but if so it never got off the ground and we slid back to former actions that makes us a counter act side at best.

Lots to be done yet!

 

[ROFLUTION]

You need a wide squad with quality competition and similar players for each position to play possession based and for that to be an overall strategy week in and week out.

Our squad is all over the place and to replace one cog, it’s currently like replacing a square with a triangle. (See: Casemiro with McTominay) No wonder EtH is pragmatical. He has to if he wants to save his own ass.

I’d say a clear and patient 5 year strategy is probably the only solution. It takes a long time, because we’re all over the place with player types.