[Hackman2210]

Interestingly - Man Utd starting 11 - £310m / Man City - £580m. After everything we've spent - we've got 2 free transfers, 1 loan, 2 academy products and some assorted big buys. What a mess.

 

[Oranges038]

Interestingly - Man Utd starting 11 - £310m / Man City - £580m. After everything we've spent - we've got 2 free transfers, 1 loan, 2 academy products and some assorted big buys. What a mess.

Was talking to someone about the team this morning. Without looking at players names.

Gk - new signing - cannot play to his strengths because the players in front can't do it.

CB - Leicester pairing from 3/4/5 years ago. One was removed as captain and was to be sold, the other is 35 and was supposed to be an emergency backup option.

LB - right footed CB should be gone long ago. The other option is a loanee Spurs reject.

RB - should have been binned ages ago, somehow gets a new 4+1 deal. No other option available.

MF - loaner from mid table serie A - taken off at HT. Nobody knows why

MF - legless 31 year old, left abandoned in midfield on his own 2nd half.

MF - 5 Years of shite, should have been sold but scores 2 and is back in the starting xi every week.

RW - Captain chaos, whinges and loses the plot, runs around like a border collie.

LW - offers nothing, is lazy and disinterested but plays 90 mins every week.

CF - New guy, young and raw, but he gets no service.

Subs

FW - perennially injured, hasn't broken a sweat in about 3 years

RW - angry man, underperforming 80m signing, comes on and kicks someone. That's it.

LB - Said Spurs loaner reject.

MF - midfielder signed for 50m, can't get a look in, doesn't seem to know what he's supposed to be doing.

LW - young player, raw but has potential, probably needs more game time to develop.

 

[justsomebloke]

Had a look at the Fbref match report. One thing that really stands out in an awful way is the cumulative Post-shot xG from the three shots on goal we managed, which was 0.17! That is by far the worst PSxG of the season (second worst is the 0-1 defeat to Palace, where it was 0.32). City's PSxG by the way was almost the same as their xG (3.94). Another confirmation that Onana had a strong game, but also of City's ability to translate their opportunities into quality finishes.

 

[justsomebloke]

Here's a fun thing: Following the next round, we could be anywhere from 6th to 13th on the table.

If we beat Fulham, Newcastle lose at home to Arsenal and Brighton lose away to Everton, we're 6th.

To end up 13th, the following has to happen:

- We lose to Fulham
- Brentford and West Ham do not draw
- Palace beats Burnley away
- Wolves beat Sheffield United away
- Chelsea beat Spurs away

Either extreme is not terribly likely of course, still, it can't be that often this far into the season that you have a possible table position span that big, for a single round.

 

[Maticmaker]

As Tommy Doc once famously remarked, "we were lucky to get nil".

Not exactly a high scoring 'thrashing' (could easily have been), but a 'thrashing' none the less. True in the first half in particular we had a few of the those famous 'moments' of play when we might have scored, but they were few and far between and most were afforded by the odd missteps by City players that gave us a chance.
By the end it was like a 'cat playing with a mouse' as City, strolled, rolled and general waltzed around us at will, or at least men against boys. Actually, when I first saw the team ETH was putting out (assuming he had some choice) I thought he would be hoping for a 0-0 or at least settle for a minor defeat.
The substitutions were also a puzzle, true Lindelof had struggled all the match as a full back, (which he 'is definitely not) always chasing Foden and perhaps in the end City were getting too much space down our left side, but taking off Hojlund was a complete mystery, unless he had some injury we didn't know about. Perhaps it was a punishment for Garnacho , (for the Gorilla thing), to put a young lad on at that stage in a match so one sided, the lad could have done nothing about the result, only share in the misery... perhaps that was what was intended.

We are indeed in a poor state just now and despite ETH's best intentions, he does not seem to be exercising any control, certainly not over his captain, who once again proved that despite being a half decent player, he is not a captain.

 

[noodlehair]

ETH is mess. He has no plan B. The Ajax tactics did not work out here and he is clueless now. He was backed so no excuses here. I was his fan but his tactics does not work with these players.

I don't think there are a set of players his tactics this season would work with, which is making our games extremely frustrating for me.

The season Ajax got to the CL semi, De Jong and Schone played over 50 times each. That's two sitting midfielders playing alongside each other. Similar to Casemiro and Eriksen last season, except without the part where Eriksen gets tired after an hour and the midfield disappears.

He seems to have, from somewhere, got into this idea he needs 2 no10s, which is crazy in itself, but where it hasn't worked with Mount, he's now using people who aren't even a no10 there, like McTominay.

He's trying to force a system onto the players that makes it impossible for them to establish any control over a game, because every team in the league and the CL will have the ability to play their way through a one man midfield.

 

[Gator Nate]

Onana is the only reason that game had a respectable scoreline. That was a hard watch. Our off-ball movement would be called terrible, if we really had any. We had few 1-2 passes - it seems that, generally speaking, the recipient of any pass is woefully unaware of anyone else's position or movement and they are not prepared to move the ball forward. That was so bad.

I still have one question - how did so many of our players get injured at the same time?

While I'm not Ten Hag out, if changes don't come to the makeup of the squad and if we don't start moving the ball forward faster, I will get there.

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

Did anyone watch the highlights on MOTD? Guy Mowbray's commentary for Haaland's penalty referred to "in the ground where his father suffered a career ending leg break" or words pretty much to that effect.

Ok, the Keane tackle was horrific but firstly, Alf Inge Haaland did not break his leg (if I'm not mistaken he may have played on in the game for a bit after it?). And secondly, it did not end his career, he played on for a couple of seasons afterwards before retiring due to injury on his other leg!

How are commentators allowed get away with such bullshit?!

 

[Oranges038]

Did anyone watch the highlights on MOTD? Guy Mowbray's commentary for Haaland's penalty referred to "in the ground where his father suffered a career ending leg break" or words pretty much to that effect.

Ok, the Keane tackle was horrific but firstly, Alf Inge Haaland did not break his leg (if I'm not mistaken he may have played on in the game for a bit after it?). And secondly, it did not end his career, he played on for a couple of seasons afterwards before retiring due to injury on his other leg!

How are commentators allowed get away with such bullshit?!

Haha..never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

His left knee that was causing him trouble, even before that incident and Roy caught him across his leg. He even admitted this later. He also played the following week, then carried on playing for a couple more years, not much because he did have an operation on his left knee. Not to mention he returned to play in 2010/2011 in the Norwegian 2nd/3rd tier for a few games.

 

[Winrar]

As Tommy Doc once famously remarked, "we were lucky to get nil".

Not exactly a high scoring 'thrashing' (could easily have been), but a 'thrashing' none the less. True in the first half in particular we had a few of the those famous 'moments' of play when we might have scored, but they were few and far between and most were afforded by the odd missteps by City players that gave us a chance.
By the end it was like a 'cat playing with a mouse' as City, strolled, rolled and general waltzed around us at will, or at least men against boys. Actually, when I first saw the team ETH was putting out (assuming he had some choice) I thought he would be hoping for a 0-0 or at least settle for a minor defeat.
The substitutions were also a puzzle, true Lindelof had struggled all the match as a full back, (which he 'is definitely not) always chasing Foden and perhaps in the end City were getting too much space down our left side, but taking off Hojlund was a complete mystery, unless he had some injury we didn't know about. Perhaps it was a punishment for Garnacho , (for the Gorilla thing), to put a young lad on at that stage in a match so one sided, the lad could have done nothing about the result, only share in the misery... perhaps that was what was intended.

We are indeed in a poor state just now and despite ETH's best intentions, he does not seem to be exercising any control, certainly not over his captain, who once again proved that despite being a half decent player, he is not a captain.

This felt pretty similar to the 0-2 home defeat couple years ago that got Ole sacked.

 

[RuudTom83]

How are commentators allowed get away with such bullshit?!

Yeah, no one ever cares for the facts...it would make great telly if the producers called it out. They have huge screens in every studio. Just google it Joe Rogan style and call out the bs.

But hey, that will never happen, so let's just go with whatever narrative is most click-worthy.

 

[crossy1686]

Delete the club.
Copy and past Real Madrid’s team and we will still struggle. We are cursed. The club needs an intervention.

It just needs a good manager who knows tactics, can manage players and understands how a transfer budget works.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

United is the only super club in the world with the issues that we repeatedly have. City don’t win just because of Pep. Mancini and pelligrini were successful and did just aswell as Pep in the CL in 3/4 years in charge.

I can’t understand how people think “Well look at that club they’re doing well, why can’t we be like that?” (insert spurs , the flavour of the moment with the manager of the moment).

It’s the right question “why can’t uniyed do better” with the wrong presumption “ that manager at that club proves that with a different (always presumed better) manager, they’d do better with this squad”.

Then we get into the “so we can’t question the manager” stuff that doesn’t tell us anything. Which manager is going to beat city with and entire defence missing and their best(on paper) central midfielder missing?

United’s persistent mistakes in transfers are a failure of our transfer policy. Nothing to do with our managers, I’d always wonder how often United get the managers targets. Casemeiro was instead of de Jong, Hoijland instead of Kane, I mean how many more signed players are simply “well you can have nobody or this signing?”.

I don’t trust the people running the club. We literally have nothing positive to highlight about them, whatever they are or are not doing, it’s an unmitigated failure. A manager has to come out saying he endorses all signings whether he wanted them or they were a preference or he agrees that the club should pay over the odds for them.

A manager doesn’t sell our players and quite often they Are told contract extensions woll
Be given to players like gifts at Oprah Winfrey shows.

We are setup to fail because we don’t have successful structures in place. Spending money doesn’t mean success, I’m not sure how much longer the glazers can waste our resources before It’s universally unquestionable.

Fair play to those who think a new manager will fix this mess. I wish I had that kind of delusional confidence. It’s born out of fantasy. You can’t compare United to other clubs that do well by changing managers and then refuse to see that every manager we sign ends up losing the edict same way. You have to delude yourself that it’s all on manager appointments when ok managers at city; Chelsea and even Barca can wi n major trophies once the right conditions are in place.

We are different from other clubs becagee we seem to do absolutely everything wrong. Every manager and player who joins fails. There is no other club in the world where that happens. It really is a case of the problem is not every manager/player the club signs, the problem is the club. It’s fundamentally broken and some fans just can’t accept it.

 

[Maticmaker]

While I'm not Ten Hag out, if changes don't come to the makeup of the squad and if we don't start moving the ball forward faster, I will get there.

Yes, 'the rope' is running out for ETH, with the team he picked to start yesterday and the strange substitutions, I almost felt if he is perhaps already looking for a way out himself.

Every Utd fan was half expecting another 6-3 result, but at least in that game we eventually did put up a show and score three that day. Our defence is all over the place at the moment with injuries, so 'go on the front foot', because there was no way we were preventing City for scoring, but if we could get one or two... anyway, yesterday the manner of the defeat was in my opinion so much more of a humiliation than last year, worse than the thrashing at the Etihad, because we hardly got a kick!

To be frank I don't blame him, I think ETH has found himself out of his depth in a number of areas and with the whole club seemingly in turmoil from ownership down to a captain who behaves at times like a spoiled child on the pitch, it would not be a surprise if he decided to 'work his ticket'. Managing a massive club like ours is great when things are stable, the pressure is there still but bearable, when the whole club is in turmoil and the squad is perhaps the worse since SAF left, then its a whole different ball game.

Perhaps Sir Jim has a rescue plan in mind and if rumours are true ETH may be the first casualty. I quite like Erik but the pressure is becoming unbearable, very few people can be at their best under such conditions.

 

[gerdm07]

What is mason mount - I’m feckin clueless and so is he apparently.
Antony’s one trick has been found out.
Erikson - hasn’t got a full game in him sadly.
Evans - too old.
Onana - made as many mistakes as saves.
Hojlund - needs crosses our wingers don’t cross.
Rashford - we might as well have signed Usain Bolt.
Amrabat - finding it much harder in the big boy league.
Garnacho - another sprinter.
Fernandez - as captain you can’t be crying all the time. Pathetic.

ETH - time defo running out.

This sums up my thinking well. I would only add

Antony - our most skillful player but rarely creates opportunities
Midfield - lots of money and our midfield is still way below average. Really poor buying by the club and ETH and this will likely cost him his job in the spring or summer.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

We lost this game, we knew we were going to lose, and many thought it was going to be a soul-crushing shellacking - but we escaped with a tepid 0-3 defeat.

I wouldn't read too much into this. It was nearly a foregone conclusion.

 

[Gator Nate]

We lost this game, we knew we were going to lose, and many thought it was going to be a soul-crushing shellacking - but we escaped with a tepid 0-3 defeat.

I wouldn't read too much into this. It was nearly a foregone conclusion.

This is the other side of things for me regarding ETH. My hope is that he played that squad knowing a defeat was coming, in order to prepare for Newcastle in the Moose Cup. We'll know soon enough.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

To be frank I don't blame him, I think ETH has found himself out of his depth in a number of areas and with the whole club seemingly in turmoil from ownership down to a captain who behaves at times like a spoiled child on the pitch, it would not be surprise if he decided to 'work his ticket'. Managing a massive club like ours is great when things are stable, the pressure is there still but bearable, when the whole club is in turmoil and the squad is perhaps the worse since SAF left, then its a whole different ball game.

Perhaps Sir Jim has a rescue plan in mind and if rumours are true ETH may be the first casualty. I quite like Erik but the pressure is becoming unbearable, very few people can be at their best under such conditions.

Was the club also in turmoil when Moyes took over 1 year after SAF won the league easily? What about LVG or Mou? Was the turmoil present then?
Managing a club like Utd is difficult regardless of the situation, if Sir Jim or Qatar or the Aliens own us it would still be difficult and that's the way it should be.
ETH has received the funds to succeed, the players the salaries and so on. Remember what happened to Allegri at Milan when the club sold Ibra and Thiago Silva and couldn't afford any reinforcements? That's turmoil not ETH's situation.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Great tactics...

I think one of the main issues hampering our team having any fluidity, is that Onana was brought in to play sweeper-keeper, to start attacks by playing outside of his box. But we are not using him that way, most of his passes were short, and the few long range passes he tried had about 50% accuracy (i.e., not good enough).

When Onana gets the ball, our back 4 are supposed to push way up. Instead, they've been sitting 5 yards from him. I think this is due to the lack of pace (serious lack of pace) in that back 4 that started on Sunday. They don't have the speed to recover if an Onana pass goes astray, so they can't push up. So Onana's entire raison d'être is neutered. If the back 4 can't push up, the fullbacks can't overlap and create overloads, so the entire system grinds to a halt.

This was not stressed at all in Jonathan Wilson's wank-fest over City "review" in the Guardian. The fact is, we had 0 of our first choice defenders available and had to field a 35 year old who is on an emergency 1 year contract. That these players are not haring up and down the wings should not be a surprise to anyone (except Jonathan Wilson). So Ten Hag is stuck between trying to keep his system together, while knowing he has square wheels at the back, or reverting to a static 4321 that hasn't worked yet.

Ten Hag has been between a rock and a hard place.

All that does not excuse whatever happened in the 2nd half, with Mount coming on and interchanging positions but no one ever looking to feed him a pass, playing McTominay in the wrong position, and leaving Eriksen on too long. Baffling shit.

 

[Maticmaker]

Managing a club like Utd is difficult regardless of the situation,

Of course it is, but the turmoil started almost as soon as both David Gill and SAF (some might even argue it had started earlier) were gone, its gradually got worse.
Moyes was out of his depth to start with, he's a much better manager now, LvG and Jose had the sense to see what was happening and they 'worked their ticket'. Ole was great as a temporary manager, but the turmoil heightened when the club handed him the job on a permanent basis and Ole's 'spread the love/do your own thing' approach ran into reality.
Rangnick (intermn) gave the warning that was never heeded, because there was no one in the club who 'got it' or were so immersed in it, to listen.

I suspect ETH thought he knew (from Steve McClaren) what he was getting into, but McClaren's view was of a situation years before.

 

[stefan92]

He seems to have, from somewhere, got into this idea he needs 2 no10s, which is crazy in itself, but where it hasn't worked with Mount, he's now using people who aren't even a no10 there, like McTominay.

Actually a double 10 isn't that crazy, while not being the most common setup, quite a lot of teams use such formations. However let's play the numbers game and quickly see the issue... I have seen it work well as a 4321, 4222, 3421, 3241. The first one is an extremely defensive counter attacking formation while the other ones all require players on the wing who are hard working and able to defend the wing, no matter how exactly this is implemented.

In other words, if you want to use a double 10, you don't have a place for Rashford (maybe as second striker in a 4222, but only maybe).

 

[always_hoping]

Having been following the team since the 80s and yesterday was worst defence United ever started in a Manchester Derby. A back four of Dalot (a sub at best) Maguire (who United tried to sell) Evans (back at the club aged 35) and Lindelof (a sub at best playing left back)

The sooner United get their first choice defence of Wan Bissaka,Varane,Martinez,Shaw back on the field the better.

 

[Gordon Godot]

Of course it is, but the turmoil started almost as soon as both David Gill and SAF (some might even argue it had started earlier) were gone, its gradually got worse.
Moyes was out of his depth to start with, he's a much better manager now, LvG and Jose had the sense to see what was happening and they 'worked their ticket'. Ole was great as a temporary manager, but the turmoil heightened when the club handed him the job on a permanent basis and Ole's 'spread the love/do your own thing' approach ran into reality.
Rangnick (intermn) gave the warning that was never heeded, because there was no one in the club who 'got it' or were so immersed in it, to listen.

I suspect ETH thought he knew (from Steve McClaren) what he was getting into, but McClaren's view was of a situation years before.

Surely he knew its tough and there was no football structure. Which I assume is why he demanded freedom on transfers. But then he clearly vastly overestimated his knowledge of what top players look like today. Anthony is such a woefully limited player.

 

[Gordon Godot]

I think one of the main issues hampering our team having any fluidity, is that Onana was brought in to play sweeper-keeper, to start attacks by playing outside of his box. But we are not using him that way, most of his passes were short, and the few long range passes he tried had about 50% accuracy (i.e., not good enough).

When Onana gets the ball, our back 4 are supposed to push way up. Instead, they've been sitting 5 yards from him. I think this is due to the lack of pace (serious lack of pace) in that back 4 that started on Sunday. They don't have the speed to recover if an Onana pass goes astray, so they can't push up. So Onana's entire raison d'être is neutered. If the back 4 can't push up, the fullbacks can't overlap and create overloads, so the entire system grinds to a halt.

This was not stressed at all in Jonathan Wilson's wank-fest over City "review" in the Guardian. The fact is, we had 0 of our first choice defenders available and had to field a 35 year old who is on an emergency 1 year contract. That these players are not haring up and down the wings should not be a surprise to anyone (except Jonathan Wilson). So Ten Hag is stuck between trying to keep his system together, while knowing he has square wheels at the back, or reverting to a static 4321 that hasn't worked yet.

Ten Hag has been between a rock and a hard place.

All that does not excuse whatever happened in the 2nd half, with Mount coming on and interchanging positions but no one ever looking to feed him a pass, playing McTominay in the wrong position, and leaving Eriksen on too long. Baffling shit.

ETH has created plenty of his own problems. He stated Varanne was fit and chose not to pick him. Reguilon was fit enough to come on but not start? He left two of his biggest signings on the bench and subbed off our only fit DM at half time. He's a fraud.

 

[noodlehair]

Actually a double 10 isn't that crazy, while not being the most common setup, quite a lot of teams use such formations. However let's play the numbers game and quickly see the issue... I have seen it work well as a 4321, 4222, 3421, 3241. The first one is an extremely defensive counter attacking formation while the other ones all require players on the wing who are hard working and able to defend the wing, no matter how exactly this is implemented.

In other words, if you want to use a double 10, you don't have a place for Rashford (maybe as second striker in a 4222, but only maybe).

I'm not going to argue as you may be right, but I've not seen any team use this system successfully in the way we are trying to.

I'm trying to think of a way this system works for us and it doesn't. If you drop Rashford out there is no one you can bring in who suddenly fixes any of the problems. Ditto any other player outside of the two no10s. You can swap one of those for Amrabat or Eriksen and it starts to make sense, but because you then have two midfielders and one no10 as opposed to vice versa.

Most teams will have one player who a majority of the play links up through and who maintains the central position, but that isn't the same as leaving them all on their own in the middle of the pitch and just hoping the opposition don't outnumber or play around them, which is what we keep doing with Casemiro.

 

[cpresc]

I can’t deny. I’m feeling tapped out with this team.

so disappointing after last season.

so many unlikable characters, our recruitment strategy is just awful

 

[Sea-Cow]

Haha brilliant, as always Noodle. I was going to respond with the stupid emoji of the green laughing face, but the situation as you describe is too depressing for emojis.

 

[stefan92]

I'm not going to argue as you may be right, but I've not seen any team use this system successfully in the way we are trying to.

That actually was my point, I don't think this combination of players and roles on the pitch will ever work, as a double 10 requires other players around them.

 

[Red in STL]

What I want to know is ..... who the feck voted for Dalot as MoM!!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What I want to know is ..... who the feck voted for Dalot as MoM!!

Slim pickings but he was our best player?

 

[croadyman]

Haha..never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

His left knee that was causing him trouble, even before that incident and Roy caught him across his leg. He even admitted this later. He also played the following week, then carried on playing for a couple more years, not much because he did have an operation on his left knee. Not to mention he returned to play in 2010/2011 in the Norwegian 2nd/3rd tier for a few games.

Glad someone else highlighting this utter ABU statement from Mowbray and made him look absolutely clueless on the matter

 

[Red in STL]

Slim pickings but he was our best player?

Not even close, 86% got it right, how 14% didn't is a mystery

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not even close, 86% got it right, how 14% didn't is a mystery

Best outfield player, I should have said. Onana made some cracking saves but his distribution was horrible, so can see why he might not have been a popular choice.

 

[FreakyJim]

MF - legless 31 year old, left abandoned in midfield on his own 2nd half.

Nonsese. He hasn't touched a drop!

 

[gantherbale]

Had a look at the Fbref match report. One thing that really stands out in an awful way is the cumulative Post-shot xG from the three shots on goal we managed, which was 0.17! That is by far the worst PSxG of the season (second worst is the 0-1 192.168.100.1 192.168.1.1 defeat to Palace, where it was 0.32). City's PSxG by the way was almost the same as their xG (3.94). Another confirmation that Onana had a strong game, but also of City's ability to translate their opportunities into quality finishes.

Of course it's gonna be the worst as we are living the worst periode of this club in over 30 yrs

 

[Oranges038]

Glad someone else highlighting this utter ABU statement from Mowbray and made him look absolutely clueless on the matter

From memory it was actually his admission that got the court case he tried to bring thrown out.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Looked good 5 or 10 minutes, felt unfair after the bs penalty. Poor second half. Terrible result but expected performance.

 

[Red in STL]

Best outfield player, I should have said. Onana made some cracking saves but his distribution was horrible, so can see why he might not have been a popular choice.

Without him the 3 would be filled in the other side as well!

IMO best outfield player was Hojlund followed by Maguire!

 

[El-Manos]

Slim pickings but he was our best player?

Has to be onana.

 

[redmanx]

As Tommy Doc once famously remarked, "we were lucky to get nil".

Not exactly a high scoring 'thrashing' (could easily have been), but a 'thrashing' none the less. True in the first half in particular we had a few of the those famous 'moments' of play when we might have scored, but they were few and far between and most were afforded by the odd missteps by City players that gave us a chance.
By the end it was like a 'cat playing with a mouse' as City, strolled, rolled and general waltzed around us at will, or at least men against boys. Actually, when I first saw the team ETH was putting out (assuming he had some choice) I thought he would be hoping for a 0-0 or at least settle for a minor defeat.
The substitutions were also a puzzle, true Lindelof had struggled all the match as a full back, (which he 'is definitely not) always chasing Foden and perhaps in the end City were getting too much space down our left side, but taking off Hojlund was a complete mystery, unless he had some injury we didn't know about. Perhaps it was a punishment for Garnacho , (for the Gorilla thing), to put a young lad on at that stage in a match so one sided, the lad could have done nothing about the result, only share in the misery... perhaps that was what was intended.

We are indeed in a poor state just now and despite ETH's best intentions, he does not seem to be exercising any control, certainly not over his captain, who once again proved that despite being a half decent player, he is not a captain.

It was so embarrasing the way City were able to ease up and basically played like it was a kick about in the park. Ive never left a match early but I was sorely tempted to do so on Sunday; I felt sickened by the jubilation and gleefulness of the City fans. Im not sure how many more matches like that I'll be able to take!