[Bilbo]

There's definitely something there, it's been on display for a few games now. We're too direct, too impatient. The passes behind the opposition line don't find their targets and come too quickly and too frequently, and there's a lack of poise and coherence when we have the ball around the opposition box. It has defensive repercussions too - again and again in the first half yesterday, when a rebound came out or a player lost the ball around the box, we were wide open to counterattack because there was no one there to pick up the Villarreal midfielders in control of the ball right outside their own box. They could get it easily and quickly out to Danjuma on the left with just one or two passes, and with Dalot getting beat almost every single time that gave them a highway to a series of high-quality chances. If Danjuma was half as good at passing as he was at getting free, or they had a decent finisher in the middle, we'd have lost the game by the break.

This is something that Fred & McTominay both do well as a pair. Its always easier to see from the stands, but they take up good positions that prevent teams from getting out as easily as Villareal did last night and that's why Ole persists with them. Pogba is a wanderer. No amount of coaching could ever curtail his natural instincts, and people are going to have to accept that a Pogba in a two will see us cut open easier by a team with Villareal's quality. It isn't Scott's fault, and a new CDM is not going to solve that unless they can be in multiple places at once.

Lots of people will put this down to poor coaching because that's the buzzword right now, but its half the story. Our issues are as much down to balance as they are coaching, and these two things do overlap to an extent so I'm not absolving anyone of responsibility, but ultimately we have a problem controlling games without McFred, and when they play they present us with other problems.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I get the Ole in or out out argument now. Its like people are watching two completely different games! How anyone can say we played well is beyond me when you have a team like Villereal who are decent but not PSG or City just running through our whole team. Its comical football. At one point we had a corner and they broke and we had I think Dalot covering a 2 v 1 situation.

Its all feels like how a teenager would manage united. Just throw on a bunch of attackers FIFA style. Got to admit that Ole is a fkin master at moments football though. We will win games for sure. Probably even big games. But over a season to win trophies this is surely not how football works.

If a teenager plays FIFA and just throws decent players on, he'll lose plenty. We haven't got top 4 places, a few semis and a final by pure luck and individual moments.

We've won some games when fortunate absolutely and there are times when our gameplan is really difficult to see. And last night, we were fortunate that De Gea kept us in the game BUT it's not just throwing players on a pitch. Last night we tried to play with one of McFred and seemed to be looking at a strategy where the front five would dominate/score...

.. it didn't work but we won. And the subs (not just random players/formation) were a key part of why.

 

[largelyworried]

I'm firmly Ole in and I thought we were absolutely terrible. At same time lot of our issues defensively was Dalot. Hard to deny, every attack and chance they had he got burnt or wasn't there.


It's not a big collective group of folk who just all think the same way. The FIFA bit is laughable.


Just enjoy the win, how could you not

The best wins are the ones that show you're a contender for the competition you're in. The last-minute winner was great, but based on last night, we're miles away from being a contender for the Champions League. It was more of a sugar rush than something satisfying.

 

[RedPed]

I woke up this morning and thought, man if only that had been the Europa League Final.

 

[RedPed]

The best wins are the ones that show you're a contender for the competition you're in. The last-minute winner was great, but based on last night, we're miles away from being a contender for the Champions League. It was more of a sugar rush than something satisfying.

Come on, you could argue only Bayern, Liverpool and Sheriff (ffs) have shown their worth so far. It's early days yet.

 

[Bilbo]

Anyway. My opinion on the game. We were shit. Villareal didn’t deserve to lose. Sometimes after dropped points I calm down overnight and realise there were positives in our performance and we were maybe unlucky not to win. Today the exact opposite happened. The euphoria has worn off and I’m depressed about yet another piss poor Champions League performance. The way we set up and performed in that first half was just not good enough and we’re going to get found out again this season. It’s inevitable.

It was always going to be a difficult match up for us last night. Villareal aren't usually that good. Tough and dogged, but not as dangerous going forward. Emery knew that Dalot was a liability and he sat Danjuma right on his shoulder knowing that Dalot couldn't help himself positionally. It was an exceptionally naive full back performance. AWB would have dealt with him much, much better and 2/3rds of their chances instantly don't happen. The other big moment came from a bizarre Varane mistake.

We got away with one. There's no doubt about that, but I was buzzing on the way home because this one was all about the victory.

 

[justsomebloke]

Moments after Matic came on I said to my mate "He is going to make a difference" and almost immediately he gestured his team mates to be more patient and not always go for the rushed attacking option. His passing is actually superb, no Hollywood passes but simply passes you need to make as a CM to make a team tick. And that's exactly what is missing, a clockwork in midfield not McT (fighter), not Fred (colibri), but a calming, reassuring presence in midfield.

Yeah, I fistpumped when I saw that gesture. It was so exactly the right thing. And I agree - Fred's best quality is exactly what we currently have too much of, and McT doesn't have either the quality or the mindset needed. Matic is our best option. Who'd have thought it.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Extremely lucky. Thank goodness for DDG and Ronnie taking that last chance. At least AWB will be back on Saturday as Dalot was atrocious and Villarreal knew it. Will need to make sure we don't give that number of chances away against Everton as they might punish us. We kept going to the end, but we had no midfield. They just sliced right through us at times. Ole is one lucky man.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Pretty poor performance but we really needed that win. Four points from the next two games will be good.

 

[kerryman]

Pretty poor performance but we really needed that win. Four points from the next two games will be good.

Lucky win, they really could have scored 3 or 4. Love Cavani's hustle, some others need the same kind of fight/intensity in their play.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Cavani was such a good sub. He brings this much needed aggressiveness to our attack.

Love Cavani. He was great when he came on. Matic is great as a sub, he steadied us, as a lot have said pity he is not five or six year younger. Don't think we would be tearing our hair out over a midfielder. Jesse and Fred involved with the goal. Thing with subs you either look like a genius or an idiot depending if they work or not.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It was always going to be a difficult match up for us last night. Villareal aren't usually that good. Tough and dogged, but not as dangerous going forward. Emery knew that Dalot was a liability and he sat Danjuma right on his shoulder knowing that Dalot couldn't help himself positionally. It was an exceptionally naive full back performance. AWB would have dealt with him much, much better and 2/3rds of their chances instantly don't happen. The other big moment came from a bizarre Varane mistake.

We got away with one. There's no doubt about that, but I was buzzing on the way home because this one was all about the victory.

I’d say the atmosphere in the stadium was unbelievable. Whatever happens under Ole he’s been at the helm for some outrageously exciting games.

That said, we were very bad. For reasons that go much deeper than Dalot. He was abominable but actually bailed us out on one occasion when he ended up the only defender back in a 2 vs 1 breakaway. Straight down the centre of the pitch. From our own fecking corner. Flashbacks to Istanbul away last season at that moment. Schoolboy football.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

But his subs worked in this game? We literally won the game because of his substitutions.

When subs work it quite often mean you got it badly wrong in the first place.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Did the commentator say Villarreal haven’t lost this season before this?

Sure that is right yes. They are draw specialists.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Great result and great ending but that was fecking shit. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a team give up that many chances to Villarreal. Our football at the moment is a complete mess. Look disjointed everywhere across the pitch. We’ve had this before but you could usually throw in one game in between where we play well but that’s now four in a row where the performances have been really bad for most of the game. If we give up these kind of chances against Atalanta we might be in some bother.

 

[justsomebloke]

This is something that Fred & McTominay both do well as a pair. Its always easier to see from the stands, but they take up good positions that prevent teams from getting out as easily as Villareal did last night and that's why Ole persists with them. Pogba is a wanderer. No amount of coaching could ever curtail his natural instincts, and people are going to have to accept that a Pogba in a two will see us cut open easier by a team with Villareal's quality. It isn't Scott's fault, and a new CDM is not going to solve that unless they can be in multiple places at once.

Lots of people will put this down to poor coaching because that's the buzzword right now, but its half the story. Our issues are as much down to balance as they are coaching, and these two things do overlap to an extent so I'm not absolving anyone of responsibility, but ultimately we have a problem controlling games without McFred, and when they play they present us with other problems.

Thoughtful and interesting post, thanks.

For the defensive transitions issue, doesn't that seem to point to the need for ensuring that someone else be in a position to pick up coverage centrally when Pogba wanders?

Been thinking too, though I understand how this works too imperfectly to really tell, why could we not try to utilise AWB in the same way that City does with Cancelo, ie, draw him into a central midfield position when we have possession, rather than send him down the right flank to overlap? That might provide more opportunity for Pogba to roam, and create overloads left, right or center.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Surely he has to get Dalotest rating ever. Dreadful performance from him.

Shocking performance really but those 3 points are all that matters.

I gave him one point and that was generous.

 

[justsomebloke]

When subs work it quite often mean you got it badly wrong in the first place.

He really can't win, can he.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

This is the reason Ronaldo signing was so exciting for me.

Not because of the goals and the fact we won. Football is a spectator sport and hugely about the feelings it invokes. Seeing Ronaldo score a last-minute winner for us in the Champions League and seeing Sir Alex celebrate it live is something that people will not get to experience again in the future.

As a side note to that, Cavani was absolutely fantastic when he came on even though he should have scored.

When they showed the replay think Cavani thought Pau Torres was going to get the ball, so just put his timing off.

 

[Bestietom]

Everyone happy with result on here, but our weaknesses were really shown up in this game.
Our midfield was once again playing second fiddle in this game and we all know it needs addressing ASAP.
With 3 missing from our backline we were also under pressure here.
Dalot was given the runaround and Varane was caught out a couple of times also.
It takes time for new recruits to knit in and get to know other players way of playing, I just hope they learn quickly.
Still I feel that 1-2 top players for our midfield in January, could turn things around.

 

[big rons sovereign]

When they showed the replay think Cavani thought Pau Torres was going to get the ball, so just put his timing off.

Yeah, it hit him in the head rather than him heading it.

 

[fergieisold]

The key issue with our performance for me was Dalot and to a lesser extent Telles. Swap those two for Shaw and AWB and I think we dominate the game and win comfortably.

Ole maybe a bit naive going so attacking but the fans would complain if he did anything else.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Also chuffed for Telles.

He has had a hard time of it at Utd after a very good career in Portugal. You could tell it meant the world to him.

It was a fantastic finish.

 

[Bilbo]

I’d say the atmosphere in the stadium was unbelievable. Whatever happens under Ole he’s been at the helm for some outrageously exciting games.

That said, we were very bad. For reasons that go much deeper than Dalot. He was abominable but actually bailed us out on one occasion when he ended up the only defender back in a 2 vs 1 breakaway. Straight down the centre of the pitch. From our own fecking corner. Flashbacks to Istanbul away last season at that moment. Schoolboy football.

Agreed. We have a very real problem with balance in our team, compounded last night by missing our two full backs, and I don't know what the solution is other than just get through this season as well as we can and rebuild the midfield. I keep flip-flopping back and forth about whether we should keep Pogba.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Matic coming on was much more important than Pogba going off. Every match we play I see a holding midfielder that is better than Fred, McT and Matic (except on his day). Today it was Capoue. I'm baffled why we couldn't buy a decent DM over the summer.

Overall, I'm getting worried and losing faith in Ole. We were very lucky to win and the play was very sporadic. Even Ronaldo looked pretty bad until he scored.

Didn't think Pogba played well, he is either brilliant or invisible. The brilliant is not regular enough for me. Is that worth a massive new contract? I am not sure.

 

[Marcus]

A win is a win. Glad I only woke up in time to watch the second half.

 

[Flexdegea]

The best wins are the ones that show you're a contender for the competition you're in. The last-minute winner was great, but based on last night, we're miles away from being a contender for the Champions League. It was more of a sugar rush than something satisfying.

Sugar rush?


Didn't know their was a tier to celebrating and enjoying a late win in a big game. Hopefully someday I reach this level of Fan.................

 

[Flexdegea]

Agreed. We have a very real problem with balance in our team, compounded last night by missing our two full backs, and I don't know what the solution is other than just get through this season as well as we can and rebuild the midfield. I keep flip-flopping back and forth about whether we should keep Pogba.

I'm the same, he goes between brilliant to invisible.

Starting to think if he wasn't about wouldn't be a issue having to get him on the pitch every game no matter where it is, and then if he doesn't start him you are 100% going to get his agent and then the media making a big scene about it.

He just doesn't do enough when he in the middle for me

 

[largelyworried]

Sugar rush?


Didn't know their was a tier to celebrating and enjoying a late win in a big game. Hopefully someday I reach this level of Fan.................

You're saying there's no difference between a cup final win against a big rival and a 3pm stroll against relegation candidates? Some wins clearly mean more than others.

 

[Dante]

Villareal didn't win the midfield battle. They only won the RB/LW battle.

If you look at the touches:

Spoiler: United

Spoiler: Villareal

We had the territorial advantage. Villareal never really tried to progress it through central areas in our half. The biggest concentration of their attacks went through Dalot.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Villareal didn't win the midfield battle. They only won the RB/LW battle.

If you look at the touches:

Spoiler: United

Spoiler: Villareal

We had the territorial advantage. Villareal never really tried to progress it through central areas in our half. The biggest concentration of their attacks went through Dalot.

They fecking strolled through the middle of the park repeatedly. Those touch maps tell us absolutely nothing you couldn’t see watching the game. In the final third they got more joy down our right than our left (because Dalot) but Capoue had a remarkably easy night. Under so little pressure and so often with acres of space and time on the ball.

 

[Offside]

When subs work it quite often mean you got it badly wrong in the first place.

 

[Bilbo]

Thoughtful and interesting post, thanks.

For the defensive transitions issue, doesn't that seem to point to the need for ensuring that someone else be in a position to pick up coverage centrally when Pogba wanders?

Been thinking too, though I understand how this works too imperfectly to really tell, why could we not try to utilise AWB in the same way that City does with Cancelo, ie, draw him into a central midfield position when we have possession, rather than send him down the right flank to overlap? That might provide more opportunity for Pogba to roam, and create overloads left, right or center.

Yes potentially, but that solves a problem for a team that plays a different strategy IMO. We would still be susceptible to counter-attacks (which we all know are City's achilles heel), so someone as savvy as Emery still finds ways to expose that space. It was compounded last night by Dalot not being a natural defender. Trippier would have found a better middle ground so it was obvious to see why we were interested in him, but AWB playing last night rubs out 2/3rds of their chances and our performance looks nowhere near as bad as it did.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Theyd still need to go get glasses. Apart from the goal both our fullbacks were awful. A goal doesn’t justify motm for me

Telles scored a brilliant goal and made that block on the line near the end to be fair.

I agree overall he wasn't very good but in a game where everyone but De Gea was crap he did at least make two huge contributions to the win.

 

[Tom Cato]

When subs work it quite often mean you got it badly wrong in the first place.

Hello there mr. Glass always empty.

 

[Flexdegea]

You're saying there's no difference between a cup final win against a big rival and a 3pm stroll against relegation candidates? Some wins clearly mean more than others.

Will obviously a cup final win more important than the win last night. But that's not what we are talking about.

I'm talking about the raw emotion and enjoyment as a fan you get nicking that game literally in the last minute, after largely being poor, and was looking like a must win.

If that's just a sugar rush for you and you can't enjoy it, you are literally a cyborg at this stage,

 

[DomesticTadpole]

There was muck talking about how we don't have a real game plan, and pretty much depend on individual inspiration and talent of our players (Gaz discussed it the other day, Owen and Hargreaves talked about it), and that's how we played in the first half but the second goal came after a proper team effort and it was wonderful.
Fred took the ball, passed it to Bruno (I think), then Cavani, then Bruno again to Fred who put a cross, Ronaldo found Lingard who kept the ball alive at the post, made a great assist and Ronaldo thumped in. Pure and simple... Five players with just a touch or two, instead of dragging the ball around without a clue what to do in the final third.Why can't we always play like that ?

A must win against Everton, and then some serious challenges for the team after the break. But we'll have to play much better
[/QUOTE]
Definitely right. As Liverpool and City are playing each other we have to show we can take advantage of the situation. Everton are playing well at the moment, so would be a good scalp to take.

 

[largelyworried]

Will obviously a cup final win more important than the win last night. But that's not what we are talking about.

I'm talking about the raw emotion and enjoyment as a fan you get nicking that game literally in the last minute, after largely being poor, and was looking like a must win.

If that's just a sugar rush for you and you can't enjoy it, you are literally a cyborg at this stage,

Its the next day mate. I loved the win, but the joy doesn't last long when we perform like that.

 

[Dante]

They fecking strolled through the middle of the park repeatedly. Those touch maps tell us absolutely nothing you couldn’t see watching the game. In the final third they got more joy down our right than our left (because Dalot) but Capoue had a remarkably easy night. Under so little pressure and so often with acres of space and time on the ball.

The same is reflected on the average positions:

And heat map:

Villareal got relatively little joy getting at Lindelof or Varane, except when slipping through Dalot's channel.

 

[Craig Ward]

Another irritating watch, very lucky.

Couple of positives - we didnt cave in and actually worked till the last minute and got the win. Most teams just surrender there. Cavani - inspired sub. His work rate just rubs off on people.

If we were being outplayed or completely dominated i'd accept it. Our shortcomings are pretty plain to see - yet we keep doing them.

Dalot - He had a bad night - and is rightly taking some flak. The winger had him beat everytime, hands down. So why didnt we do anything to prevent that? Why didnt our winger drop in and double up or the CB push over to offer cover? It's really really simple yet we spurned chance after chance and just did not try and prevent it.

Central Midfield - It literally hurts my eyes watching Pogba play central midfield. He's just a passenger, he is never in the right position and so defensive naive. McTom is left on his own and takes most of the flak, but the issue is pogba. Mctom is average and will always offer a limited performance, but when he's on his tod with runners he's got no hope.

Sancho - I'm not getting the fact we whack him on the left. We've been crying out for a RW for about 50 years and now we've signed one we dont play him there? Is our go-to position for players we dont know what to do with LW? We tried endlessly to play Dan James and Rashford on the right when they both suit the left better - now with Sancho he's the opposite. Bizarre. I do understand Greenwood is playing well off the right, but either rotate or sub off?

Team Shape - Disjointed. Pogba and Fernandes we're constantly too high and we were so slow to play the ball out we were always in trouble. I've said this a million times and i'll keep saying it - our use of the ball from the back is abysmal. It's painfully slow, painfully predicable. Our CM (Usually McTom and Fred) are very limited passers of the ball, and Mctominey often just hides from the ball rather than showing for it. McTom gets on the ball when it's an option, but he rarely works to find himself in space. All our passes are laboured with no urgency. We have world class attackers - but no link. Still amazed Donny cant get a look in. He's surely worth a go considering how poor the rest are?

All in all - a bad night that just highlights the same old errors. Even Varane is stooping to our lazy level.

But we won - hooray! Take them all as they say, a wins a win.

Irritates me as we are a few changes in our play to clicking and then we will go on a good run. Higher intensity, better passing from the back and we aren't far off. CM is by far our biggest issue but we have to put up with that as Ole loves McFred and Pogba will always slot in somewhere despite his flaws. Fred and Donny would work for me, i'd love to see us try