[largelyworried]

Its something that many Cafe posters have been begging for. Hopefully they now realise it doesn't work with this personnel.

There's no doubt we should be playing better than we did last night, but Villareal are a wily team. Without Dalot in there that game looks far more like the cagey matches we usually have with them. The handing out regular chances made it look worse than it was, and every team struggles to score against them so I was expecting a very tough night and any kind of win would have done. Atalanta don't look as strong as Villareal IMO and I'd fancy us to get home and away wins against them.

I'm confident we'll get through too, I watched Atalanta and they've dropped off a lot since I watched them last season, I think we can beat them at home and at least draw away. We'll beat YB and that puts us on 10 points. Then just boils down to making sure we get what we need away from Villareal, tricky but hardly impossible. However I won't deny I worry about what a really good team might do to us. One clean sheet in eighteen games now.

On our formation, I've long since felt that Bruno and Pogba in a midfield 3 wasn't viable. I wrote this post about it the other day. Unless we had a true monster at DM (god knows who) they're just the wrong pair. They did work together quite well after project restart, which was the first time they played together. But I think Bruno was more conservative back then and Pogba is ok at being disciplined in short spells but struggles to sustain it.

I'm more relaxed about McFred than others. I think the problem is quality, not the double pivot per se. Liverpool may play with Fabinho as more of a single pivot, but Bruno is far more adventurous than Thiago or Henderson. You could have a deeper pair of players behind him and still have a high-quality midfield, they just need to be a lot more than hustlers and harriers, which is what McFred kind of boil down to. I think the reason posters are coming up with more and more unlikely formations is really just a recognition that what they see isnt working and just fishing for any idea that might work. Unfortunately it kind of feels that's what the manager did last night too.

 

[Maticmaker]

Last night I attended another evening at the 'Theatre of Dreams', its enchantment lives on even among the decaying facilities. In a game we should have lost by halftime except for the breaker of strikers hearts, the'goal-stopper' extraordinaire, David DeGea and the return of 'Ronaldo the Magician .'

The comments above are a bit flowery admittedly, but what can you say after last nights result.
We should have been dead and buried by half time, but excellent work from David DeGea aided and abetted by the slinky but strong Varane, we hung on!
Cameo's came from Cavani's sheer determination, Matic's pushing out from the back, aided by a marvellous Telles goal, and the best personal performance yet from Sancho and of course the contribution of the prodigal son that is Jesse Lingard, all combined for the final act of the great CR7 doing what he does best!

Wonderful, I slept like a babe last night, thank you everyone at OT.

 

[Tom Cato]

11th in La Liga.

Juventus 10th in Serie A

 

[Adcuth]

If we had played the right pass, if it was not intercepted, if our attackers passed more intricately - it would have been an excellent attacking performance.

If our defenders cut out their passes, if our RB was not so useless 1-on-1, if our midfield could control tempo and control - it would have been a good defensive performance too.

Unfortunately neither of the above happened, so not sure why you feel it was a good/great performance. Literally every team can point to those things and say "if we had done these things right, we would be a top team". Those aren't fine margins either that a team just develops these overnight.

Because to have those fine margins whilst playing a new formation with a team consisting of 3 defenders that aren't in our first team, a dm that doesn't usually play a full no6 role and 3 player's that were only signed a few months ago...it shows promise. Its something we can build on if we decide to stay playing that way and give the team time to grow into it.

 

[Buster15]

Last night I attended another evening at the 'Theatre of Dreams', its enchantment lives on even among the decaying facilities. In a game we should have lost by halftime except for the breaker of strikers hearts, the'goal-stopper' extraordinaire, David DeGea and the return of 'Ronaldo the Magician .'

The comments above are a bit flowery admittedly, but what can you say after last nights result.
We should have been dead and buried by half time, but excellent work from David DeGea aided and abetted by the slinky but strong Varane, we hung on!
Cameo's came from Cavani's sheer determination, Matic's pushing out from the back, aided by a marvellous Telles goal, and the best personal performance yet from Sancho and of course the contribution the prodigal son that is Jesse Lingard, all combined for the final act of the great CR7 doing what he does best!

Wonderful, I slept like a babe last night, thank you everyone at OT.

And thank you for your summary.
My view on the overall performance was one of thanks that we were not dead and buried in the first half, thanks almost entirely to DDG.
The second half was better. But yet again, there was little real pattern to the play. The goal from Telles was terrific. But the midfield created few good opportunities.
And in the end, there was Cristiano Ronaldo to get us over the line.
Such relief at the end. Ole has many problems to solve, because we are not really playing well enough.

 

[NK86]

Because to have those fine margins whilst playing a new formation with a team consisting of 3 defenders that aren't in our first team, a dm that doesn't usually play a full no6 role and 3 player's that were only signed a few months ago...it shows promise. Its something we can build on if we decide to stay playing that way and give the team time to grow into it.

I admire your optimism. I don't share it. You are saying it's a new formation causing an issue. I feel it's a coaching issue and won't just fix with the same coaching set up since we are not that fluid in the last 3 years either. Struggling with a low block has been there for all to see. Struggle to cope with a high press is there for all to see.

Players not even pressing together is not going to fix with a formation change. However we can wait and see if it works out. I have zero expectations from Ole to sort these things out.

 

[Maticmaker]

Such relief at the end. Ole has many problems to solve, because we are not really playing well enough.

Agreed, and its the same problems, they haven't gone away.

My worry is that having better players now means Ole and his management team are more likely to continue to rely on moments 'of brilliance' from the top players, rather than face the obvious problems.

This 'leave it to the best players' approach worked in the past, but against teams like Villarreal in Europe and say Aston Villa in the PL, teams who are well coached, structured in their play, and even possibly lack any individual brilliance (e.g. now Villa's lost Grealish!!) and knowing they lack this option they sit back and let you pound yourself to death on their defenses, ready in the twinkling of an eye to hit you on the break. You could almost see the joy in Villarreal's players faces last night as we continued to pass the ball around in front of them.

I was encourage when Pogba made a couple of brave attempts to arrive late in the box in the first half, but he needed another 'Pogba' at the other end supplying the pass.
For me the difference was when Cavani (sheer determination)and Matic (ready to carry the ball forward at every opportunity) came on, it was, for me, their presence that opened up the final act of the pure 'theatre' we saw play out in the final minutes.

 

[The Brown Bull]

I admire your optimism. I don't share it. You are saying it's a new formation causing an issue. I feel it's a coaching issue and won't just fix with the same coaching set up since we are not that fluid in the last 3 years either. Struggling with a low block has been there for all to see. Struggle to cope with a high press is there for all to see.

Players not even pressing together is not going to fix with a formation change. However we can wait and see if it works out. I have zero expectations from Ole to sort these things out.

Agreed.

 

[LJJT]

The issue last night was no AWB and Pogba playing. If AWB was on the pitch they would have had much less joy and if Pogba was replaced by Fred and played deeper along side Scott as usual it would have been much more controlled. Fans go crazy as we play two holding midfielders but last night is your reason why we do.

 

[Adcuth]

I admire your optimism. I don't share it. You are saying it's a new formation causing an issue. I feel it's a coaching issue and won't just fix with the same coaching set up since we are not that fluid in the last 3 years either. Struggling with a low block has been there for all to see. Struggle to cope with a high press is there for all to see.

Players not even pressing together is not going to fix with a formation change. However we can wait and see if it works out. I have zero expectations from Ole to sort these things out.

Oh I agree with the issues in the background and I 100% know we will revert back to the usual 4231, mcfred bullshit against Everton. My points were mainly to point out the promise I could see if we were to persist with bedding in playing the way we set up last night. It wasn't the best performance by any means but I just saw things that could work in the future. I have no trust that ole will persist with it though.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I've seen a lot of complaining about people being too negative on here but what exacerbates it is a complete refusal of many posters to simply say 'we were dog shite last night for most of the game but thank god for DDG'. Instead there are people genuinely trying to argue it was an even game! This thread would be about 3 pages long if people weren't biased; we were poor, on balance we should have lost but we won so be happy, be relieved and a crucial three points is in the bag, focus shifts now to Everton.

 

[Ixion]

The issue last night was no AWB and Pogba playing. If AWB was on the pitch they would have had much less joy and if Pogba was replaced by Fred and played deeper along side Scott as usual it would have been much more controlled. Fans go crazy as we play two holding midfielders but last night is your reason why we do.

What were your excuses for the Villa result then

 

[DomM]

Got away with that, we simply didn't look organised despite having the superior players. Good teams are able to rotate and still have the same pattern of play, we rotate and look like a bunch of pissheads on a Sunday morning.

To me that says the coaching isn't up to a high enough standard, too much seems ad hoc.

 

[drunkmonkmeth]

Not happy with the peformance or ole but the result has be buzzinf at the same time. In a sense that was the united way but with this squad we can play so much better. Matic looked really good when he came on.. if he can do that consistently id play him cdm with pogba and fernandez.

 

[Stevondo8]

Juventus 10th in Serie A

People just ignoring that the only game they’ve lost this season was against us last night? Including games against both Madrid’s and Chelsea (which they ultimately lost on a shootout, but technically it was a draw).

Ok we weren’t great last night, but they’re no mugs and set up to be difficult to beat.

 

[Meller]

Missed the game yesterday as I was working but watched the 2nd half today as we were supposed to have improved from the 1st half.

My god the 1st half must have been bad if that was an improvement because I thought we were awful in the 2nd! Don't know what we're trying to accomplish really. Oh well 3 points at least.

 

[Tom Cato]

People just ignoring that the only game they’ve lost this season was against us last night? Including games against both Madrid’s and Chelsea (which they ultimately lost on a shootout, but technically it was a draw).

Ok we weren’t great last night, but they’re no mugs and set up to be difficult to beat.

Yeah pretty much.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Villareal are not easy. They are the king of draws. There were only 2 teams had more draws than them in La Liga last season, while this season they already had 5 draws in La Liga plus 1 draw vs Chelsea and 1 draw vs Atalanta.

IMO we looked bad because Dalot was beaten easily by their left winger. It was like Dalot not even there, couldn't block the cross and couldn't defend one v one. If it was Bissaka or someone who is better defender than Dalot, DDG wouldn't need to do as much as work as last night. Well, not like we would be totally dominate but we would be much better for sure.

 

[Big Andy]

Second half we were decent overall and worth the comeback, but the first half was a typical omnishambles and Ole needs to sort it the feck out.

That to me suggest Ole did sort it the feck out.

 

[LJJT]

What were your excuses for the Villa result then

My excuses? I’m talking about last nights game. Not Saturdays. We where bad on Saturday individually and as a team. Let’s hope we are top of the league at the close of this weekend.

 

[RepardReece]

My excuses? I’m talking about last nights game. Not Saturdays. We where bad on Saturday individually and as a team. Let’s hope we are top of the league at the close of this weekend.

No - you're stating the reason we struggled was that we didn't play McFred, but it clearly didn't work against Aston Villa and hasn't worked numerous times before. Ridiculous comment right after a 1-0 loss at the weekend when they played.

They're two players trying to do the job of one, and still can't even do it as good as the likes of Kante, Fabinho.

 

[gerdm07]

Did anyone else feel like we were playing a 4-1-4-1 for large parts of the 1st half? Pogba was so far forward for good parts. Was this Ole trying to get more offense. Of course it's a problem if the first 1 is McT. As the match progressed Pogba came back more and more.

I was really disappointed in McT's lack of passes forward and, really, his lack of even looking. He is a robot now, receives the ball on the turn, pretends to look forward, and passes it back or to the side. The contrast was so great when Matic came on who immediately connected on some nice penetrating passes.

 

[Buster15]

Agreed, and its the same problems, they haven't gone away.

My worry is that having better players now means Ole and his management team are more likely to continue to rely on moments 'of brilliance' from the top players, rather than face the obvious problems.

This 'leave it to the best players' approach worked in the past, but against teams like Villarreal in Europe and say Aston Villa in the PL, teams who are well coached, structured in their play, and even possibly lack any individual brilliance (e.g. now Villa's lost Grealish!!) and knowing they lack this option they sit back and let you pound yourself to death on their defenses, ready in the twinkling of an eye to hit you on the break. You could almost see the joy in Villarreal's players faces last night as we continued to pass the ball around in front of them.

I was encourage when Pogba made a couple of brave attempts to arrive late in the box in the first half, but he needed another 'Pogba' at the other end supplying the pass.
For me the difference was when Cavani (sheer determination)and Matic (ready to carry the ball forward at every opportunity) came on, it was, for me, their presence that opened up the final act of the pure 'theatre' we saw play out in the final minutes.

Yes indeed.
We are a long way from being a well coached team. And that has to be rectified as a matter of urgency.
Although he is ageing and slow, Matic can give us a physical presence in midfield that we lack. And Cavani workrate is very important to us.
Lingard also gets a lot of criticism. But he does make things happen.

In my view, we are a long way from where we need to be and continue to rely on individual brilliance as you say.

 

[Damien]

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[big rons sovereign]

I admire your optimism. I don't share it. You are saying it's a new formation causing an issue. I feel it's a coaching issue and won't just fix with the same coaching set up since we are not that fluid in the last 3 years either. Struggling with a low block has been there for all to see. Struggle to cope with a high press is there for all to see.

Players not even pressing together is not going to fix with a formation change. However we can wait and see if it works out. I have zero expectations from Ole to sort these things out.

So why bother watching?

 

[Berbasbullet]

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@Houdini
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@Walters_19_MuFc

Waheeey! Cheers Damien!

 

[Bastian]

The issue last night was no AWB and Pogba playing. If AWB was on the pitch they would have had much less joy and if Pogba was replaced by Fred and played deeper along side Scott as usual it would have been much more controlled. Fans go crazy as we play two holding midfielders but last night is your reason why we do.

I think those were quite clearly the problem areas, but Pogba is probably shoehorned into the side more due to his profile than some fan expectation. Ole has a big call to make to get more balance from the side, and you could see how moody Pogba was after the final whistle. We cannot let his contractual situation force our team selection.

 

[LJJT]

No - you're stating the reason we struggled was that we didn't play McFred, but it clearly didn't work against Aston Villa and hasn't worked numerous times before. Ridiculous comment right after a 1-0 loss at the weekend when they played.

They're two players trying to do the job of one, and still can't even do it as good as the likes of Kante, Fabinho.

Just ignore all the dozens of games we’ve had success with them prior to the weekend then? We are going to lose games from time to time.

 

[UnitedFire]

Those saves weren’t standard and if it weren’t for him we would have been well beaten

Standard for De Gea

He really is back to being world class this season. Player of our season so far! Worrying given the vast attacking talent.

 

[UnitedFire]

That tip over was at full speed, great save. The double save late on.. see the replay were he's on the floor and flicks his left hand out.. great save.

Never mind the collective other saves which add up to a great performance. I've given him grief for not dominating box and poor distribution but last night he saved us from a 3 or 4 goal defeat.

I can't remember the tip over would have to look at that again.

I do remember the quick save on floor. Was very quick response.

Either way I gave him a 9/10 and MOTM. Only thing missing was the Schmeichel superman style flying horizontal save!

 

[JJ12]

No - you're stating the reason we struggled was that we didn't play McFred, but it clearly didn't work against Aston Villa and hasn't worked numerous times before. Ridiculous comment right after a 1-0 loss at the weekend when they played.

They're two players trying to do the job of one, and still can't even do it as good as the likes of Kante, Fabinho.

The midfield was shambolic with Pogba and McTominay last night, it was better vs Villa but still shit.

Midfield is a massive problem, play 2 of those is better than having McTominay by himself while Pogba was making runs in behind the defence most of the first half. We were always going to get killed on the counter with that.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I can't remember the tip over would have to look at that again.

I do remember the quick save on floor. Was very quick response.

Either way I gave him a 9/10 and MOTM. Only thing missing was the Schmeichel superman style flying horizontal save!

Apologise about quality, sound. First one I found.

Apart from the double late on, you can see the tip over from the header and the one round the left post. There were more.

I gave him 9 too. And felt guilty after. He was excellent.

 

[RepardReece]

The midfield was shambolic with Pogba and McTominay last night, it was better vs Villa but still shit.

Midfield is a massive problem, play 2 of those is better than having McTominay by himself while Pogba was making runs in behind the defence most of the first half. We were always going to get killed on the counter with that.

not disagreeing. but game after game people cry McFred started, and then cry when another midfielder starts there too. Matic is literally still our best player there and we seem to always play better when he is there, not McFred, eventhough he can barely run now and his legs go after 70mins

 

[dalriada]

There has to be be another option other than Dalot. Decent on the ball, shite without it.

There has to be be another option other than Dalot. Decent on the ball, shite without it.

I would have preferred to see Williams as the backup and Dalot maybe go on loan - Williams may not be technically as good on the ball, but he gets stuck in and has more grit about him. I recognise he's more in need of the regular game time for his development, though (and worry that Norwich this season won't be a good experience for him).
Bailly would be the other option, but that would have been high risk of a different sort last night. It's not as if there's a U23 player who could be thrown in there, certainly not for a key ECL match.

 

[Nash27]

not disagreeing. but game after game people cry McFred started, and then cry when another midfielder starts there too. Matic is literally still our best player there and we seem to always play better when he is there, not McFred, eventhough he can barely run now and his legs go after 70mins

matic played vs southampton away and people still moaned. There is a reason why Ole plays mcfred. Or Fred alongside another midfielder. Its just that Fred is in terrible form and we dont have any other player who brings that energy in midfield.

 

[Hugh Jass]

The issue last night was no AWB and Pogba playing. If AWB was on the pitch they would have had much less joy and if Pogba was replaced by Fred and played deeper along side Scott as usual it would have been much more controlled. Fans go crazy as we play two holding midfielders but last night is your reason why we do.

Do you think we should let Pogba go?

 

[Alek M]

Smash and grab. Smash and grab bois.

 

[Alek M]

Do you think we should let Pogba go?

He is leaving us mate

 

[tomaldinho1]

Smash and grab. Smash and grab bois.

The United Way

 

[Tincanalley]

Cavani, Lingard, Matic, and Fred made difference as a sub.
Cavani presses so hard.

We should be easily dominating and winning games likes this and especially at home.

Good Volley by Telles.
Love the last minute goals. Good Stuff.

De Gea is my MOM.

Cavani is my DAD