Potential CB Options

Jezpeza

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Seeing napolis chairman touting koulibaly at £100m. Its kind of awkward that he still thinks hes worth a lot because at 29 he isnt a long term investment. Should have cashed out when there was demand by not asking 2 to 3 times a realistic price for him.

Bailly has been good recently but still think we need someone else, just dont trust his injury record. Not saying I hope he gets injured but theres been a pattern of him coming back for a few games and then breaking down again.

Upemacano, Kounde, Konate all look good options and all French incidentally.
 

Alemar

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Seeing napolis chairman touting koulibaly at £100m.
It’s highly unlikely they will get even half of that for Koulibaly - he is too old for exorbitant transfer fees. Something along the lines of 40-45m would be more realistic in COVID environment
 

Jezpeza

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It’s highly unlikely they will get even half of that for Koulibaly - he is too old for exorbitant transfer fees. Something along the lines of 40-45m would be more realistic in COVID environment
yeah i know. Is that guy a bit of a spanner?Seems to pop up in the press every week saying ‘koulibaly is not for sale at any price and we are under no pressure to sell him but if someone offered £100m they could buy him’.
 

croadyman

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Seeing napolis chairman touting koulibaly at £100m. Its kind of awkward that he still thinks hes worth a lot because at 29 he isnt a long term investment. Should have cashed out when there was demand by not asking 2 to 3 times a realistic price for him.

Bailly has been good recently but still think we need someone else, just dont trust his injury record. Not saying I hope he gets injured but theres been a pattern of him coming back for a few games and then breaking down again.

Upemacano, Kounde, Konate all look good options and all French incidentally.
Would prefer either of the last two and get the impression we aren't convinced by Dayot by the sound of latest tweets
 

GledTheRed

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Seeing napolis chairman touting koulibaly at £100m. Its kind of awkward that he still thinks hes worth a lot because at 29 he isnt a long term investment. Should have cashed out when there was demand by not asking 2 to 3 times a realistic price for him.

Bailly has been good recently but still think we need someone else, just dont trust his injury record. Not saying I hope he gets injured but theres been a pattern of him coming back for a few games and then breaking down again.

Upemacano, Kounde, Konate all look good options and all French incidentally.
Yeah warning off his potential non suitors. I wouldn't pay 40 million for KK at his age.
 

Jezpeza

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Yeah warning off his potential non suitors. I wouldn't pay 40 million for KK at his age.
i dont think hes worth much. His game is built on physicality and sports science proves hes going to decline in that respect from now on in.
 
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Watched a few Lens games in the last couple of months - mostly because I had a bet on the matches, partly because I was checking out Medina who's been linked to us.

Medina didn't stand out in the one game he actually played. Other than looking really small.

Conversely, Loic Bade played in all three and was head and shoulders their best defender. He's an absolute monster physically. Huge in stature and way faster and more agile than he has any right to be at his size. Might be a case of - like McTominay - he didn't develop physically until later in his career so he has a lot more to his game than just size. He's great on the ball too...starts their all attacks.

His coaches and teammates rave about him:

Loic is a phenomenon. He has always been a wonderful defender positionally, in how he sees the game, his technique on the ball...but maybe a little small. That's not the case now. Since his 16th birthday he has grown 8 inches! When we measured in pre-season he was 2m (6ft6) exactly. He has become a physical warrior, while losing none of his speed, acceleration or quality on the ball. He is already a leader for us. He wants the ball, he wants the responsibility of playing from the back.
- Franck Haise, Lens Manager

He started playing professional last season, and now you watch him and he plays like he's got 150 games!"
- Massadio Haïdara, Lens defender

"He's what? 20? And when you see him on the pitch, he's so confident and reassuring that you think he's 26 or 27! He reads the game so well, anticipates everything. He's going to be one of the best.
- Ignatius Ganago, Lens forward

Came through the Lens academy, ala Raphael Varane. Now, at 20, virtually an ever present this season for the first team.

Looks to have absolutely everything. Winning 4.4 aerial duels a game - at a riduclous 91% success rate. He's fast, good on the ball and seems to be positionally intelligent beyond his years.
 

DarkRed

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What are the thoughts on Joachim Andersen? playing at Fulham this year, so PL experienced a bit.
 

Adnan

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@A-man I think this thread is more suitable for the discussion.



[/QUOTE]
I understand the doubts regarding fitness tbh with you and I fully understand United fans being apprehensive regarding his injury issues. I don't know if he will become injury prone but at this stage I will say he isn't because he's only suffered the one injury which has caused him many problems for a year now. But if United do decide to have a serious look at him, then I'm sure the clubs medical department will have the medical reports from both France and Germany at their disposal to make a informed assessment. It'll be interesting to see how he does for the rest of the season now he's back into contention at Leipzig.

I personally believe he's absolutely made for the premier league and has all the tools to play both in a structured setup due to his aerial dominancy, ability on the ball and physical strength. And also in a higher line where defensive stability is sacrificed for goals, which makes him a ideal candidate for what Ole is reported to be looking for in a new CB.

And another thing that people overlook is that with someone commanding like Konate, he gives you the option of actually having a partnership other than Maguire which is beneficial for the team. He's actually a bigger threat to Maguire's place in the team in the mid to longterm IMO.
 

Sea-Cow

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Watched a few Lens games in the last couple of months - mostly because I had a bet on the matches, partly because I was checking out Medina who's been linked to us.

Medina didn't stand out in the one game he actually played. Other than looking really small.

Conversely, Loic Bade played in all three and was head and shoulders their best defender. He's an absolute monster physically. Huge in stature and way faster and more agile than he has any right to be at his size. Might be a case of - like McTominay - he didn't develop physically until later in his career so he has a lot more to his game than just size. He's great on the ball too...starts their all attacks.

His coaches and teammates rave about him:


- Franck Haise, Lens Manager


- Massadio Haïdara, Lens defender


- Ignatius Ganago, Lens forward

Came through the Lens academy, ala Raphael Varane. Now, at 20, virtually an ever present this season for the first team.

Looks to have absolutely everything. Winning 4.4 aerial duels a game - at a riduclous 91% success rate. He's fast, good on the ball and seems to be positionally intelligent beyond his years.
Well shit, I'm convinced! Sign this lad up!

Any time someone is that tall I always fear that he will be big and lumbering. But if you say that he is also quick and agile, then I can be on board. I think I've seen him linked with Pool recently, so we should swoop in!
 

A-man

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@A-man I think this thread is more suitable for the discussion.




I understand the doubts regarding fitness tbh with you and I fully understand United fans being apprehensive regarding his injury issues. I don't know if he will become injury prone but at this stage I will say he isn't because he's only suffered the one injury which has caused him many problems for a year now. But if United do decide to have a serious look at him, then I'm sure the clubs medical department will have the medical reports from both France and Germany at their disposal to make a informed assessment. It'll be interesting to see how he does for the rest of the season now he's back into contention at Leipzig.

I personally believe he's absolutely made for the premier league and has all the tools to play both in a structured setup due to his aerial dominancy, ability on the ball and physical strength. And also in a higher line where defensive stability is sacrificed for goals, which makes him a ideal candidate for what Ole is reported to be looking for in a new CB.

And another thing that people overlook is that with someone commanding like Konate, he gives you the option of actually having a partnership other than Maguire which is beneficial for the team. He's actually a bigger threat to Maguire's place in the team in the mid to longterm IMO.
I totally agree about the last part. As it is now, it is given Maguire +1. Konaté could challenge for that spot and his style looks to be great for PL football. My only concern is his injuries...

As I wrote before, it would be very interesting to see him in a team where the defence work better as a unit. If we talk about Upamecano, I personally believe he often ends up 1v1 because the way they play, because they don’t cooperate well and because the whole defence is a little like magnets and want to be where the ball is. But their style also makes Upamecano shine. He can make great “saves” and is free to show his skills with the ball. For Konaté I don’t know, but Inreally think he would benefit with playing with an experienced CB in an organised defence. But these are just my thoughts and I haven’t really watched him enough to be certain about anything.
 

NYAS

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How pacey is Konate compared to someone like Bailly?

If he can stay fit I’m on board the Konate train but the one thing we need above all else in a new CB is pace. If we sign a new CB who doesn’t have that then to my mind we haven’t done anything.
 

Adnan

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How pacey is Konate compared to someone like Bailly?

If he can stay fit I’m on board the Konate train but the one thing we need above all else in a new CB is pace. If we sign a new CB who doesn’t have that then to my mind we haven’t done anything.
Konate has clocked a higher top speed but as we all know top speed isn't a great barometer when it comes to judging players in a game where acceleration over the first 5-6 yards is more important. But IMO Konate has similar pace to Upamecano which is very quick for a CB that is 6'4..

The below vid displays his acceleration with and without the ball along with many other facets of his game.

 

lysglimt

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I just can't see any established CB avaiable who would strengthen us enough to be worth the fee. There are a few younger ones who in 12-18 months may take that step and be a clear upgrade on what we have, but we cant spend £50 million for someone who might be better than what we have in 12 months.

I actually prefer Konate to Upamecano, but his injury-history at such a young age is a huge concern
 

ThinkTank@Cafe

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I am sure that the likes of Upamecano or Konate are not better than our own Eric Bailly. We should purchase a talent and nurture him. The video below lists some candidates.
I liked Carmo
 

MasterCode

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What if the answer isn't in the market and rather the answer is already within?

Even though I know the likelihood is very low. Sometimes I wonder injuries aside if Bailly and Axel were allowed to form a partnership I have no doubt in my mind that we could:

1) Go single pivot in midfield
and
2) That CB pairing would grow to match Konate and Dayot.

Axel needs enough chances to play into form like Maguire was afforded IMO (even though what is considered "inform" for Harry is average PL performance if we're being honest) I wasn't surprised at Axel's PSG performance - if you followed his loan time at Villa trust me the player we're sitting on I don't think many fans have any idea, defensively on the ball passing he's a REALLY good player.

The "aerial thing" is overstated IMO we have 6ft 5 captain and opposition teams salivate their lips at set pieces against us currently (that first Man City goal is why I just don't believe in the aerial dominance dross people hark on about).

Ruben Dias and John Stones who are the same height (and not known for aerial dominance) to Axel and Bailly (6ft 1 and 6ft 2), imo are currently a solid partnership that don't seem to fussed with the aerial propaganda. Some of footballs best partnerships Ramos & Carvallho (6ft and 5ft 11), Terry & Carvallho (6ft 2 and 5ft 11) etc.

Anyway height is one aspect of aerial ability, reaction times and aggression is two more - Bailly sometimes his reaction times is just telekinetic I saw one header out the box VS Aston Villa that Maguire would've never made - it would've certainly been a goal. I feel an inform Axel and Bailly keeps an inform Maguire out the team just my opinion if we are looking at it from a solely ability standpoint.

Injuries of course would be everyone's concern but I feel like Maguire and Lindeloff are adequate cover for the two of them (Insert Troll Face). Seriously to my original point I feel there's a tendancy for fans to love what's new and shiny when theres no guarantee it will work.

P.S. The whole "we've spent 80m lets force it to work" is why Lampard is in the situation he is in at Chelsea - Pep doesn't even flinch when he buys an expensive flop he would start a reserve team player if he thinks it will befit his objective better.

Love Ole and I'm a staunch "Ole in" from day one - but Maguire as captain was a cataclysmic howler on his part. I would be more confident about the title charge if it weren't for him.
 
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OhGee

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yeah i know. Is that guy a bit of a spanner?Seems to pop up in the press every week saying ‘koulibaly is not for sale at any price and we are under no pressure to sell him but if someone offered £100m they could buy him’.
he’ll probably be doing the same in 5 years time not realizing that Koulibaly has retired...
 

dev1l

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Imo if we are looking at a cb partner for Maguire, a fit Bailly and a fit Tuanzebe are perfect. (Injuries apart)
From the few times I watched Konate and Upamecano, they re fast for sure but I think they re a bit rash at times. They re faster than Maguire for sure but still not agile as Bailly for example. I prefer someone with a slighter frame like Bailly to partner Maguire.
Then my other concern about Upa and Konate is injuries - which already is a problem with 4 of our cbs (Bailly, Tuanzebe, Jones and Rojo).
 

RkkMan

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What if the answer isn't in the market and rather the answer is already within?

Even though I know the likelihood is very low. Sometimes I wonder injuries aside if Bailly and Axel were allowed to form a partnership I have no doubt in my mind that we could:

1) Go single pivot in midfield
and
2) That CB pairing would grow to match Konate and Dayot.

Axel needs enough chances to play into form like Maguire was afforded IMO (even though what is considered "inform" for Harry is average PL performance if we're being honest) I wasn't surprised at Axel's PSG performance - if you followed his loan time at Villa trust me the player we're sitting on I don't think many fans have any idea, defensively on the ball passing he's a REALLY good player.

The "aerial thing" is overstated IMO we have 6ft 5 captain and opposition teams salivate their lips at set pieces against us currently (that first Man City goal is why I just don't believe in the aerial dominance dross people hark on about).

Ruben Dias and John Stones who are the same height (and not known for aerial dominance) to Axel and Bailly (6ft 1 and 6ft 2), imo are currently a solid partnership that don't seem to fussed with the aerial propaganda. Some of footballs best partnerships Ramos & Carvallho (6ft and 5ft 11), Terry & Carvallho (6ft 2 and 5ft 11) etc.

Anyway height is one aspect of aerial ability, reaction times and aggression is two more - Bailly sometimes his reaction times is just telekinetic I saw one header out the box VS Aston Villa that Maguire would've never made - it would've certainly been a goal. I feel an inform Axel and Bailly keeps an inform Maguire out the team just my opinion if we are looking at it from a solely ability standpoint.

Injuries of course would be everyone's concern but I feel like Maguire and Lindeloff are adequate cover for the two of them (Insert Troll Face). Seriously to my original point I feel there's a tendancy for fans to love what's new and shiny when theres no guarantee it will work.

P.S. The whole "we've spent 80m lets force it to work" is why Lampard is in the situation he is in at Chelsea - Pep doesn't even flinch when he buys an expensive flop he would start a reserve team player if he thinks it will befit his objective better.

Love Ole and I'm a staunch "Ole in" from day one - but Maguire as captain was a cataclysmic howler on his part. I would be more confident about the title charge if it weren't for him.
I think its a bit ridiculous to compare Axel/Bailly to Dias/Stones. Dias is a proven winner with Benfica, a Portuguese international with plenty of European experience at the highest level and despite his previous inconsistencies Stones has been a key player for City when they were winning titles with Pep and he`s also a full English international. Bailly even though very good on his day and potentially our best all rounded CB when fit he`s barely managed to hit over 30 appearances for Utd and despite his potential Axel`s best career highlights were for a Villa side that was in the Championship and their height issues are not overstated at all they are VERY valid. When Jose tried Bailly/Lindelof together any man and his dog could see we couldn`t win jackshit in the air and in our game vs Istanbul in the CL this season away from home Axel was a constant target in the air and they created dozens of chances as a result so yes Axel/Bailly whilst they could be potentially solid on the ground they`d cost us in tough away games like West Ham/Burnley who are very good in the air.
And despite his fee you SERIOUSLY underestimate how important Maguire is to our defence and its not a case of "forcing things" but because he possesses qualities none of our other CBs have in terms of being reliable, consistent, composure on the ball and fitness(on top of being an full English international with experience at the highest level for England including in the World Cup Tuanzebe doesn`t have that) and believe it or not upgrading on him in the market wont be easy as finding VVD/Varane level of CBs in this era is VERY hard. Maguire`s issues aerially are when he`s in the attacking box he needs to score more but ludicrous to suggest he`s shaky defensively you`ll look at the few mistakes he`s made rather than the tonnes of headers he`s won in our more important wins like Everton, West Ham, Burnley etc? And that City goal was not as easy to defend as the eye test suggests to look at a video Neville explained on how that goal was more notoriously tricky to defend than the average fans think and his opinion as a top level defender holds more weight than a mere fan
Maguire 100% shouldn`t be captain but he sure as hell can be a key player in our defence if we want to challenge for titles
 

Bebestation

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I think its a bit ridiculous to compare Axel/Bailly to Dias/Stones. Dias is a proven winner with Benfica, a Portuguese international with plenty of European experience at the highest level and despite his previous inconsistencies Stones has been a key player for City when they were winning titles with Pep and he`s also a full English international. Bailly even though very good on his day and potentially our best all rounded CB when fit he`s barely managed to hit over 30 appearances for Utd and despite his potential Axel`s best career highlights were for a Villa side that was in the Championship and their height issues are not overstated at all they are VERY valid. When Jose tried Bailly/Lindelof together any man and his dog could see we couldn`t win jackshit in the air and in our game vs Istanbul in the CL this season away from home Axel was a constant target in the air and they created dozens of chances as a result so yes Axel/Bailly whilst they could be potentially solid on the ground they`d cost us in tough away games like West Ham/Burnley who are very good in the air.
And despite his fee you SERIOUSLY underestimate how important Maguire is to our defence and its not a case of "forcing things" but because he possesses qualities none of our other CBs have in terms of being reliable, consistent, composure on the ball and fitness(on top of being an full English international with experience at the highest level for England including in the World Cup Tuanzebe doesn`t have that) and believe it or not upgrading on him in the market wont be easy as finding VVD/Varane level of CBs in this era is VERY hard. Maguire`s issues aerially are when he`s in the attacking box he needs to score more but ludicrous to suggest he`s shaky defensively you`ll look at the few mistakes he`s made rather than the tonnes of headers he`s won in our more important wins like Everton, West Ham, Burnley etc? And that City goal was not as easy to defend as the eye test suggests to look at a video Neville explained on how that goal was more notoriously tricky to defend than the average fans think and his opinion as a top level defender holds more weight than a mere fan
Maguire 100% shouldn`t be captain but he sure as hell can be a key player in our defence if we want to challenge for titles
Maybe you could switch it around- bailly is more like Stones (inconsistent but getting better) and Maguire is more like our Dias (a winner at his previous club).
 

RkkMan

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Maybe you could switch it around- bailly is more like Stones (inconsistent but getting better) and Maguire is more like our Dias (a winner at his previous club).
Bailly/Stones is a good shout. Both are the same age, were signed by their clubs at the same time with huge potential and both are having a mini resurgence at the same time too.
Maguire/Dias isnt a good comparison I like Maguire a lot but Dias is better as a player with a better CV Maguire unfortunately has 4 relegations to his CVs and 9 semi finals lost. Harsh to blame all those misfortunes on him only of course but I think he`ll win a trophy with Utd before he leaves IMO
 

MasterCode

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I think its a bit ridiculous to compare Axel/Bailly to Dias/Stones. Dias is a proven winner with Benfica, a Portuguese international with plenty of European experience at the highest level and despite his previous inconsistencies Stones has been a key player for City when they were winning titles with Pep and he`s also a full English international. Bailly even though very good on his day and potentially our best all rounded CB when fit he`s barely managed to hit over 30 appearances for Utd and despite his potential Axel`s best career highlights were for a Villa side that was in the Championship and their height issues are not overstated at all they are VERY valid. When Jose tried Bailly/Lindelof together any man and his dog could see we couldn`t win jackshit in the air and in our game vs Istanbul in the CL this season away from home Axel was a constant target in the air and they created dozens of chances as a result so yes Axel/Bailly whilst they could be potentially solid on the ground they`d cost us in tough away games like West Ham/Burnley who are very good in the air.
I wasn't comparing Stones and Dias with Bailly and Tuanzebe I was noting the height differential and ability in the air, read carefully. The point is that you do not need a towering CB at the back to be successful. Top teams in the modern era and even in our own league have got away with centre backs with less of an aerial threat or similar height differences in "recent" times.

Maguire is not important to our defence (our double pivot in midfield is important to our defence) I won't believe Maguire is important until he is able to play in a defence which doesn't require a double pivot - he is even by your own comparisons a protected CB.

But let's be clear about your comparisons Maguire is nowhere near VVD or Varane I'm sorry but that is "ridiculous" do you know what those two have been able to achieve in club football, additionally, these are CB's who play with flying wingbacks who primary instincts are to attack and secondary defend, coupled with the fact that they play with just one defensive midfielder. This means that as CBs they actually have to defend runners, the half space as well as aerially be competent and, multiple other defensive scenarios for their respective clubs in order for their midfield to be freed up and subsequently teams to be more successful! Forget about international call ups it means nothing in our modern era that's largely accepted, and shows no indication about quality in the modern era that used to be a strong indicator in yester year.

Any time we have tried to field a team which can play more expansively and fielded less defensive-minded midfielders Maguire is often found out. So we put runners all around him (McFred) and praise his heading? I was born at night but not last night, I don't rely on punditry narratives I have eyes and observe what's happening objectively, and Neville certainly has a narrative around Maguire and his lapses exampled by Evra's famous rant on Maguire during Sky Sports. I'll give him credit though at time Maguire actually does defend well, eg after Leicester drew level he suddenly gained impetus and looked good, however that should be his base level performance and we shouldn't have to concede before he suddenly wakes up.

Axel's ceiling is triple if not quintuple that of Maguire's if you watched championship football and observed his time at Villa you'd know that - performances like what he produced at PSG was "standard" for them, Axel's issues are his injuries, but he was largely available for Villa that year which means you can get 30 league apps from him a season if handled correctly - admitedly with both him and Bailly you're going to need cover - but we needed cover for Rio and Vida who had their own injury issues does that mean we shouldn't have started them together? Speak to any Villa fan and they will tell you about Axel - it's just about consistency in fitness and he needs a run in the team tbh.

All CBs are prone to a mistake that's not the sole reason why I am critical of Maguire, I'm largely critical of what it takes to make Maguire to look decent, our shape is dependant on ensuring he doesn't get exposed, sorry but for that reason comparing him to Varane or VVD is ludicruous. But equaly to call my inclusion of Axel and Bailly, ridiculous and then highlight "Stone's inconsistencies" is in itself an inconsistent thought pathway.

Both on the ball Bailly and Axel are brilliant, and I feel sorry for Bailly because the risks he takes on the ball he is going to need a competent CB next to him one day, because he is bound to mess up - mark my words when that happens Maguire will not dig him out of trouble. But Bailly will constantly dig him out as we've witnessed in our "Unlocking Maguire" era of United.
 

Holters

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I haven't watched Fofana enough, but - as we've experienced with Maguire - it is very different playing in a low block compared to a high line. Extremely important that we scout a defender with the right traits to complement our current set of defenders rather than going for the flavor of the month. Fofana is also a right footed right sided centerback. He does look promising though.
 

VictoriaRed

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I thought Ben White for Brighton was a centre back? It looks Potter is playing him as a deep lying midfielder against Leeds, and he looks a beast! He's mobile, strong, and clever. Sign him up!
 

RkkMan

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I wasn't comparing Stones and Dias with Bailly and Tuanzebe I was noting the height differential and ability in the air, read carefully. The point is that you do not need a towering CB at the back to be successful. Top teams in the modern era and even in our own league have got away with centre backs with less of an aerial threat or similar height differences in "recent" times.

Maguire is not important to our defence (our double pivot in midfield is important to our defence) I won't believe Maguire is important until he is able to play in a defence which doesn't require a double pivot - he is even by your own comparisons a protected CB.

But let's be clear about your comparisons Maguire is nowhere near VVD or Varane I'm sorry but that is "ridiculous" do you know what those two have been able to achieve in club football, additionally, these are CB's who play with flying wingbacks who primary instincts are to attack and secondary defend, coupled with the fact that they play with just one defensive midfielder. This means that as CBs they actually have to defend runners, the half space as well as aerially be competent and, multiple other defensive scenarios for their respective clubs in order for their midfield to be freed up and subsequently teams to be more successful! Forget about international call ups it means nothing in our modern era that's largely accepted, and shows no indication about quality in the modern era that used to be a strong indicator in yester year.

Any time we have tried to field a team which can play more expansively and fielded less defensive-minded midfielders Maguire is often found out. So we put runners all around him (McFred) and praise his heading? I was born at night but not last night, I don't rely on punditry narratives I have eyes and observe what's happening objectively, and Neville certainly has a narrative around Maguire and his lapses exampled by Evra's famous rant on Maguire during Sky Sports. I'll give him credit though at time Maguire actually does defend well, eg after Leicester drew level he suddenly gained impetus and looked good, however that should be his base level performance and we shouldn't have to concede before he suddenly wakes up.

Axel's ceiling is triple if not quintuple that of Maguire's if you watched championship football and observed his time at Villa you'd know that - performances like what he produced at PSG was "standard" for them, Axel's issues are his injuries, but he was largely available for Villa that year which means you can get 30 league apps from him a season if handled correctly - admitedly with both him and Bailly you're going to need cover - but we needed cover for Rio and Vida who had their own injury issues does that mean we shouldn't have started them together? Speak to any Villa fan and they will tell you about Axel - it's just about consistency in fitness and he needs a run in the team tbh.

All CBs are prone to a mistake that's not the sole reason why I am critical of Maguire, I'm largely critical of what it takes to make Maguire to look decent, our shape is dependant on ensuring he doesn't get exposed, sorry but for that reason comparing him to Varane or VVD is ludicruous. But equaly to call my inclusion of Axel and Bailly, ridiculous and then highlight "Stone's inconsistencies" is in itself an inconsistent thought pathway.

Both on the ball Bailly and Axel are brilliant, and I feel sorry for Bailly because the risks he takes on the ball he is going to need a competent CB next to him one day, because he is bound to mess up - mark my words when that happens Maguire will not dig him out of trouble. But Bailly will constantly dig him out as we've witnessed in our "Unlocking Maguire" era of United.
I did notice you talked about their height differential and aerial ability and I gave clear examples as to why we`d be ten times worse with them as a pair having to deal with both ground defending and aerial duels which I`ve noticed you intentionally negated. The difference between them and the likes of Dias/Stones is they`ve been much better trained under harder circumstances to deal with them Stones has plenty of PL experience and Dias was the leader of Benfica`s defence Axel/Bailly are NOWHERE near as commanding as them and which top team ever got away without a CB good in the air? Madrid have had Ramos, Barca Puyol/Pique, Bayern with Boateng and Dante who was ten times worse than Maguire but they still won a CL, City with Laporte, Liverpool with VVD, Chelsea with Terry, Utd with Vidic, Arsenal with Adams/Camphell etc I could go on and on but you are NOT going to challenge for major honors without a CB thats very good in the air
I was not suggesting Maguire is as good as VVD/Varane it was more a case of saying that you rate him waaay too lowly if you think he is that easy to upgrade on by just playing Axel/Bailly a sure bet upgrade on him would be the level of CBs I`ve said as some of these other names people brand about like Konate, Upamecano, Milenkovic etc whilst good are by no means sure upgrades on him and there is EVERY chance our defence becomes worse if you replace him with those level of players.
Yes he is important to our defence no CB in the PL has won more aerial duels or completed more successful interceptions than him this season and last season we went from having the worst defence in the top 10 to having the most cleansheets in Europe since we signed him take him out of our defence we will become worse 100% and why do you not talk about how our WHOLE defence in general becomes worse when McFred dont play? Even if we used your dream Axel/Bailly partnership we`d have the same problems with the current midfield in front of them. Our lack of and out out DM affects the WHOLE backline not just Maguire put even Ramos/VVD in our defence and even they will struggle a bit once we get a proper out out DM like Rice we wont need to use McFred and Maguire(and our whole defence) wont look as vulnerable so its not entirely his fault our lack of protection from midfield makes his job harder.
I dont doubt Axel`s potential and Villa fans defo watched him more than us but we cant always talk about what he can do rather than what he`s actually done. We`ve had plenty of players who`ve had massive potential which was never fulfilled so until he actually proves himself to the extent where we can trust him week in week out like Bailly/Maguire ridiculous to suggest we should drop our most consistent CB for him.
 

Holters

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Love Ole and I'm a staunch "Ole in" from day one - but Maguire as captain was a cataclysmic howler on his part. I would be more confident about the title charge if it weren't for him.
Out of curiosity, who was the better candidate at the time Maguire was given the armband? If you actually take a moment and look at the players that were here at the time, you would realise there weren't many other candidates. Players like Mata and Matic don't feature regularly. De Gea isn't any more captain material than Maguire - neither is Pogba with all his inconsistency and off field antics. The whole captaincy thing has been ridiculously blown out proportions. As if Bruno would have played any better if given the armband. I actually respect Solskjær for not headlessly drop Maguire as a captain due to fan pressure. You don't strip someone of a captaincy in the middle of a season. The short break between seasons didn't allow any changes as we basically went straight into this season. With that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Bruno is given the captaincy before next season.
 

dutchred

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I will throw in a name here who I think is a very good CB in the Van Dijk Mould. His name is Bazoer currentrly playing at Vitesse in Holland. In my opinion he is the best CB in Holland at the moment. Has a weird history. Started as a junior at PSV. Was considered one on the best young midfielders in Holland. Amid some controversy he moved from PSV to Ajax ( that would be like United taking the best youngster from the Liverpoll academy)
Made his debut at a young age at Ajax but somehow it all went wrong. Maybe the hype went to his head. He left Ajax for Wolsburg but that didn't work out so he went on loan to Porto, but that also didn't work out. He moved to Utrect last season but now has arrived at Vitesse, where he has been converted to a CB. He is 24 and seems to have matured a lot this season. He's very good on the ball and as a converted midfielder is always looking to play the ball rather than just hoof it away. He's quick and good in the air. If he continues lke this he will be at a top club in a year or so.
I would love us to take a chance on him and he would not cost a fortune
 

TwoSheds

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People who think Varane would get in our team ahead of Maguire :lol:
 

Lash

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I will throw in a name here who I think is a very good CB in the Van Dijk Mould. His name is Bazoer currentrly playing at Vitesse in Holland. In my opinion he is the best CB in Holland at the moment. Has a weird history. Started as a junior at PSV. Was considered one on the best young midfielders in Holland. Amid some controversy he moved from PSV to Ajax ( that would be like United taking the best youngster from the Liverpoll academy)
Made his debut at a young age at Ajax but somehow it all went wrong. Maybe the hype went to his head. He left Ajax for Wolsburg but that didn't work out so he went on loan to Porto, but that also didn't work out. He moved to Utrect last season but now has arrived at Vitesse, where he has been converted to a CB. He is 24 and seems to have matured a lot this season. He's very good on the ball and as a converted midfielder is always looking to play the ball rather than just hoof it away. He's quick and good in the air. If he continues lke this he will be at a top club in a year or so.
I would love us to take a chance on him and he would not cost a fortune
Really interesting story, I remember the move from PSV to Ajax and him being quite the talent. I'll definitely try and catch a game of him now he's playing CB!
 

Andersons Dietician

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Was reading that Chelsea and Liverpool are looking at Konate. The thoughts of him lining up alongside Van Dijk just isn’t worth thinking about. Be a nightmare scenarios and should never be allowed to happen. I wanted Konaté over Maguire way back when but now think he’d be a fantastic partner for him. Just depends if he gets over this little injury hiatus.
 

dinostar77

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On yesterdays Transfer Window podcast, only a rumour they have heard, but will get proper confirmation for next weeks show. Utd have been exploring the possibility of bringing Sergio Ramos to Old Trafford, if he cant agree a new 2 year deal with Real Madrid. Major financial issues at Madrid. Ramos wants a 2 year deal with no further paycut. Perez only offering a 1 year deal. Ramos will be 35 in March.
 

Bebestation

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I thought Ben White for Brighton was a centre back? It looks Potter is playing him as a deep lying midfielder against Leeds, and he looks a beast! He's mobile, strong, and clever. Sign him up!
Beast as CB or CDM? I been interested him at leeds but never watched him this year
 

Matt851

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I thought Ben White for Brighton was a centre back? It looks Potter is playing him as a deep lying midfielder against Leeds, and he looks a beast! He's mobile, strong, and clever. Sign him up!
Yes i was very impressed with white. Seems versatile having played at rb, cb and dm now
 

MasterCode

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I did notice you talked about their height differential and aerial ability and I gave clear examples as to why we`d be ten times worse with them as a pair having to deal with both ground defending and aerial duels which I`ve noticed you intentionally negated. The difference between them and the likes of Dias/Stones is they`ve been much better trained under harder circumstances to deal with them Stones has plenty of PL experience and Dias was the leader of Benfica`s defence Axel/Bailly are NOWHERE near as commanding as them and which top team ever got away without a CB good in the air? Madrid have had Ramos, Barca Puyol/Pique, Bayern with Boateng and Dante who was ten times worse than Maguire but they still won a CL, City with Laporte, Liverpool with VVD, Chelsea with Terry, Utd with Vidic, Arsenal with Adams/Camphell etc I could go on and on but you are NOT going to challenge for major honors without a CB thats very good in the air
I was not suggesting Maguire is as good as VVD/Varane it was more a case of saying that you rate him waaay too lowly if you think he is that easy to upgrade on by just playing Axel/Bailly a sure bet upgrade on him would be the level of CBs I`ve said as some of these other names people brand about like Konate, Upamecano, Milenkovic etc whilst good are by no means sure upgrades on him and there is EVERY chance our defence becomes worse if you replace him with those level of players.
fulfilled so until he actually proves himself to the extent where we can trust him week in week out like Bailly/Maguire ridiculous to suggest we should drop our most consistent CB for him.
You're right I did ignore it because those examples didn't say much in my opinion I said it's overstated - not irrelevant. Your example of Bailly and Lindeloff the latter is actually worse than Bailly so I don't really get the relevance - and I disagree on your point about the aerial target for Instanbul there was a lot more wrong with that game. So I agree to disagree here I'm not going to harken on about it I feel they are adequate enough in the air. There are top teams in recent history who have won league titles and got to CL league finals and their CBs don't dominate in the air, - PSG, Madrid ( see previous post.

In regards to the double pivot listen to an interview Uncle Rio gave today on Full Time Devils regarding todays game at 10:38 he answers a question and he sums it up perfectly (apparently I can't post media yet). If you couldn't notice the difference between our double pivot in build up play, and Liverpool's single pivot in general play today then I don't know what will help you realise it. It's affecting the way we generally play.

See the thing with stats is that they're so subjective, so when you talk about "since we signed Maguire" we also signed AWB during that time - and I would wager prior to signing an RB that was where we were attacked down the most, many may have forgotten but that used to be the way to get at united down our right-hand side. We signed Spider and all that changed now people criticise him for so much else because we're never happy as fans I digress. Point is do we point out your clean sheet stat to him or Maguire how so you discern who to credit, should I point to AWB tackle rate as you go to HM interception rate (in a double pivoted midfield might I add)

We English we love to hype our own, Aurelio De Laurentiis - states how average Maguire is, Van Der Vaart - "England's worst CB", Uncle Pat wants him on the bench. A few of our fellow English pundits get around and create a narrative mix in a few favourable tabloids and suddenly the footy beer goggles are on and we can't be honest about with what we're seeing.

You mentioned Axel and Bailly performances, let me give you some of Maguire's.

He performed a world-class Ju-Jitsu takedown on Luke Shaw vs Spurs and produced one of the most tepid performances from a United Captain in one of our most embarrassing losses.
Players who have skinned him that have led to a goal win lose or draw:
FK Partizan Belgrad vs Man Utd: I've never from the stands seen one man get skinned so many time by attackers live at a game so much it was insane (PS, I bet English Commentary didn't even mention it).

1. Onel Hernandez - Man Utd 3 - Norwich 1
2. Batshyaui Man Utd - 2 Chelsea 1
3. Turned and skinned in a few Arsenal games.

Aerially wanting, Newcastle Calum Wilson De Gea save, legendary choke slam in the box vs Chelsea, Aston Villa Bailly block another tepid header from HM which led to Bailly digging him out (again). I'll stop here (but trust me I could go on and on, YouTube Harry Maguire what other centerback do you find such a vast amount of howler compilations for one centreback.

I don't want to become one of those fans who comes across negative about our club especially now, because I love what's happening at our club, top of the league! But Harry Maguire is an average CB at a great club, we just have to be honest about that.

Listen Ole has his favourite so it won't happen but I do feel rather than just say who can we buy or wait till our talent goes abroad and then want to buy him back for four times the price - fans should look at Axel and Bailly for what they are, VERY talented Centre Halves.

Out of curiosity, who was the better candidate at the time Maguire was given the armband? If you actually take a moment and look at the players that were here at the time, you would realise there weren't many other candidates. Players like Mata and Matic don't feature regularly. De Gea isn't any more captain material than Maguire - neither is Pogba with all his inconsistency and off field antics. The whole captaincy thing has been ridiculously blown out proportions. As if Bruno would have played any better if given the armband. I actually respect Solskjær for not headlessly drop Maguire as a captain due to fan pressure. You don't strip someone of a captaincy in the middle of a season. The short break between seasons didn't allow any changes as we basically went straight into this season. With that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Bruno is given the captaincy before next season.
Probably would've said Mata Club captain (like we did with Gary Neville) matchday captain wasn't really set as not to ruffle any feathers. Remember Giggs was club captain at a point but he wasn't a starter - so we would switch it between Rio, Evra and Vida etc. Would've said something like that.
 

Bojan Djordjic

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I think its a bit ridiculous to compare Axel/Bailly to Dias/Stones. Dias is a proven winner with Benfica, a Portuguese international with plenty of European experience at the highest level and despite his previous inconsistencies Stones has been a key player for City when they were winning titles with Pep and he`s also a full English international. Bailly even though very good on his day and potentially our best all rounded CB when fit he`s barely managed to hit over 30 appearances for Utd and despite his potential Axel`s best career highlights were for a Villa side that was in the Championship and their height issues are not overstated at all they are VERY valid. When Jose tried Bailly/Lindelof together any man and his dog could see we couldn`t win jackshit in the air and in our game vs Istanbul in the CL this season away from home Axel was a constant target in the air and they created dozens of chances as a result so yes Axel/Bailly whilst they could be potentially solid on the ground they`d cost us in tough away games like West Ham/Burnley who are very good in the air.
And despite his fee you SERIOUSLY underestimate how important Maguire is to our defence and its not a case of "forcing things" but because he possesses qualities none of our other CBs have in terms of being reliable, consistent, composure on the ball and fitness(on top of being an full English international with experience at the highest level for England including in the World Cup Tuanzebe doesn`t have that) and believe it or not upgrading on him in the market wont be easy as finding VVD/Varane level of CBs in this era is VERY hard. Maguire`s issues aerially are when he`s in the attacking box he needs to score more but ludicrous to suggest he`s shaky defensively you`ll look at the few mistakes he`s made rather than the tonnes of headers he`s won in our more important wins like Everton, West Ham, Burnley etc? And that City goal was not as easy to defend as the eye test suggests to look at a video Neville explained on how that goal was more notoriously tricky to defend than the average fans think and his opinion as a top level defender holds more weight than a mere fan
Maguire 100% shouldn`t be captain but he sure as hell can be a key player in our defence if we want to challenge for titles
Yess. People way underrate Maguire and overrate Bailly on this forum. Maguire is so important not just defensively but also for our build up. Even in attack, he's outperforming his Xg. Maguire is not our problem in defence. Wish people would realise this.
 
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How good is this pass from Bastoni to Barella? Ridiculous.


Kid is a comically good modern defender already - and is basically nailed on to be one of the best around for a big chunk of his career. Left footed too.

He'd cost an absolute fortune though, considering Inter paid 31m for him as an 18 year old.
 

RkkMan

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You're right I did ignore it because those examples didn't say much in my opinion I said it's overstated - not irrelevant. Your example of Bailly and Lindeloff the latter is actually worse than Bailly so I don't really get the relevance - and I disagree on your point about the aerial target for Instanbul there was a lot more wrong with that game. So I agree to disagree here I'm not going to harken on about it I feel they are adequate enough in the air. There are top teams in recent history who have won league titles and got to CL league finals and their CBs don't dominate in the air, - PSG, Madrid ( see previous post.

In regards to the double pivot listen to an interview Uncle Rio gave today on Full Time Devils regarding todays game at 10:38 he answers a question and he sums it up perfectly (apparently I can't post media yet). If you couldn't notice the difference between our double pivot in build up play, and Liverpool's single pivot in general play today then I don't know what will help you realise it. It's affecting the way we generally play.

See the thing with stats is that they're so subjective, so when you talk about "since we signed Maguire" we also signed AWB during that time - and I would wager prior to signing an RB that was where we were attacked down the most, many may have forgotten but that used to be the way to get at united down our right-hand side. We signed Spider and all that changed now people criticise him for so much else because we're never happy as fans I digress. Point is do we point out your clean sheet stat to him or Maguire how so you discern who to credit, should I point to AWB tackle rate as you go to HM interception rate (in a double pivoted midfield might I add)

We English we love to hype our own, Aurelio De Laurentiis - states how average Maguire is, Van Der Vaart - "England's worst CB", Uncle Pat wants him on the bench. A few of our fellow English pundits get around and create a narrative mix in a few favourable tabloids and suddenly the footy beer goggles are on and we can't be honest about with what we're seeing.

You mentioned Axel and Bailly performances, let me give you some of Maguire's.

He performed a world-class Ju-Jitsu takedown on Luke Shaw vs Spurs and produced one of the most tepid performances from a United Captain in one of our most embarrassing losses.
Players who have skinned him that have led to a goal win lose or draw:
FK Partizan Belgrad vs Man Utd: I've never from the stands seen one man get skinned so many time by attackers live at a game so much it was insane (PS, I bet English Commentary didn't even mention it).

1. Onel Hernandez - Man Utd 3 - Norwich 1
2. Batshyaui Man Utd - 2 Chelsea 1
3. Turned and skinned in a few Arsenal games.

Aerially wanting, Newcastle Calum Wilson De Gea save, legendary choke slam in the box vs Chelsea, Aston Villa Bailly block another tepid header from HM which led to Bailly digging him out (again). I'll stop here (but trust me I could go on and on, YouTube Harry Maguire what other centerback do you find such a vast amount of howler compilations for one centreback.

I don't want to become one of those fans who comes across negative about our club especially now, because I love what's happening at our club, top of the league! But Harry Maguire is an average CB at a great club, we just have to be honest about that.

Listen Ole has his favourite so it won't happen but I do feel rather than just say who can we buy or wait till our talent goes abroad and then want to buy him back for four times the price - fans should look at Axel and Bailly for what they are, VERY talented Centre Halves.
The relevance of my point with Bailly/Lindelof is that like Axel/Bailly they`re both good at defending on the ground but thats not enough to make your CBs reliable in the PL whether you want to completely dismiss it or not the same problem that made Jose never try Bailly/Lindelof again after a mere 2 games is the same problem that will make Axel/Bailly more vulnerable to us at the back than you think. Having a CB thats good in the air is more important than you think not just in the PL but overall and Maguire`s ability on the ball is a huge bonus as to why he`s the one starting for us and England not Smalling who hasn`t gotten an international call up in years despite his "good form" and once again you`re very wrong on PSG/Madrid having success without an aerially dominant CB as if Ramos/Thiago Silva dont exist :houllier: :lol:
The reason why LFC and us are not on the same level on build up play from midfield is due to PERSONNEL nothing else. They previously had Fabinho/Henderson and now Thiago who are all very gifted on the ball and in transitions we have Fred/McTominay who are just runners with limited ability on the bal Matic is the only deep midfielder good on the ball but he`s too slow. Put one of the 3 LFC midfielders in ours and you`ll see just how much we`ll improve and its why I said its harsh to blame some of Maguire`s flaws on the poor personnel in front of him put any other CB in his place they`ll still struggle or our midfielders in LFC`s midfield and they`d struggle too a top class DM improves THE WHOLE DEFENCE much more than a new CB
You`re going to single handedly put the blame on Maguire for us losing 6-1 like Bailly didnt play in that game? Or that Martial got a red card which screwed our game plan? Or that EVERYONE at the back was below par? LFC that very same day lost 7-2 to an even inferior team with the "best CB in the world" starting whilst being 11 men nobody thinks any lesser of their defenders and ever since that huge loss we`ve improved leaps and bounds with surprise surprise Maguire being a regular starter the whole time he must surely be doing something right? You saw how imperious he was yesterday put Axel in his place LFC beat us same way you`d put Axel in this place vs Spurs we STILL lose 6-1 putting the blame of a whole back 4 on him when the rest dont take up responsibility is ridiculously high level of agenda when our defence is better with him than without him especially in the first two examples the one VS Norwich was more on McTominay for giving the ball carelessly in midfield and the Chelsea goal was a result of something similar and trust me I could find a comp of VVD/Koulibaly making many many mistakes on Twitter/YouTube as well these videos exist for EVERY CB Maguire`s just happen to be microscoped every CB gets skinned by attackers and Azpilicueta did a chokeslam against one of our players too BTW but you dont want to talk about it
The opinions of other people dont mean much the same De Laurentis thinks Koulibaly is worth over 100m and even City didnt touch him with a bargepole because they knew he`d be average in the PL, Evra was just emotional that day like everybody else he`s praised Maguire numerous times and Van Der Vaart has previously called Harry Kane shit and he`s a wife beater/domestic abuser the opinion of such a low life degenerate holds little to no value even though he was a good player and if you seriously want to bash me for valuing the opinion of Neville yet you want to make it look like Van Der Vaart and De Laurentis(who have never won CL or PL trophies as defenders at the highest level) then I dont know what to say but my point is clear on how you SERIOUSLY devalue the importance of Maguire