Potential Matic Replacements

[SadlerMUFC]

I keep hearing people talk about "mobility". Being mobile is very over rated in a DM role. The most important part is having the discipline to stay in your position, and to have great distribution. I still remember how much people used to complain about Carrick, and for the most part, it was because most people didn't understand his position. They thought of Scott Parker as a DM because he ran around making crunching tackles. So they wanted Carrick to either crush people, or start scoring and assisting like Gerrard and Lampard. This is why Matic has been so good. He's been able to sit in that hole in front of Maguire and Lindeloff and be a pivot. The guy who connects defense to attack and then provides a shield. It's a thankless job because much like Matic (and Carrick before him) was criticized for not doing enough when we weren't getting results, now the we are, he still won't show up on the stats sheet very often. Worst part is, it's a position we are going to need to fill very soon with Matic being on the wrong side of 30, but it's also a hard spot to fill. I've liked what I've seen from Rice the last two games (and love that he uses both feet equally well) but there were a lot of games before that were I was questioning why people kept talking about him...

 

[Adnan]

I keep hearing people talk about "mobility". Being mobile is very over rated in a DM role. The most important part is having the discipline to stay in your position, and to have great distribution. I still remember how much people used to complain about Carrick, and for the most part, it was because most people didn't understand his position. They thought of Scott Parker as a DM because he ran around making crunching tackles. So they wanted Carrick to either crush people, or start scoring and assisting like Gerrard and Lampard. This is why Matic has been so good. He's been able to sit in that hole in front of Maguire and Lindeloff and be a pivot. The guy who connects defense to attack and then provides a shield. It's a thankless job because much like Matic (and Carrick before him) was criticized for not doing enough when we weren't getting results, now the we are, he still won't show up on the stats sheet very often. Worst part is, it's a position we are going to need to fill very soon with Matic being on the wrong side of 30, but it's also a hard spot to fill. I've liked what I've seen from Rice the last two games (and love that he uses both feet equally well) but there were a lot of games before that were I was questioning why people kept talking about him...

You conveniently forget that we've had mobile players like Hargreaves in 08 and Fletcher later who did the leg work for Carrick. It's fine mentioning Carrick but don't forget the midfield as a unit and it's function. And it's not only about mobility but ability on the ball too because without that none of the players touted on here would be playing at the top level in European football.

 

[MattofManchester]

These are just hypotheticals, but I'm considering something.

If we signed Declan Rice, wouldn't that mean we'd still need to sign another creative midfielder who'd rotate with Pogba and Bruno?

On the other hand, if we signed, let's say Partey or Ndombele(again, just using players that suit our situation, not necessarily targets), we'd likely have a player who can play as the DM, and move into a more forward thinking role when Pogba or Bruno need a rest or are injured(We are so dull and lost when one of them doesn't play at the moment it's pitiful), and will also allow Fred and McTominay to find a place in the team.

In consideration of our limited funds, etc. I wonder from what point of view Ole is looking at all this from?

 

[gr3yham3]

You conveniently forget that we've had mobile players like Hargreaves in 08 and Fletcher later who did the leg work for Carrick. It's fine mentioning Carrick but don't forget the midfield as a unit and it's function. And it's not only about mobility but ability on the ball too because without that none of the players touted on here would be playing at the top level in European football.

True, but Carrick was paired more often with Scholes IIRC. Hargreaves played as a RM in the UCL final. We used to play a 2 man midfield more often back in those days as well, hence they needed to cover a lot more ground. Even now, Matic is not the most mobile of midfielders anyway and is doing a great job in anchoring everything together with good positioning, discipline and distribution.

 

[Adnan]

True, but Carrick was paired more often with Scholes IIRC. Hargreaves played as a RM in the UCL final. We used to play a 2 man midfield more often back in those days as well, hence they needed to cover a lot more ground. Even now, Matic is not the most mobile of midfielders anyway and is doing a great job in anchoring everything together with good positioning, discipline and distribution.

Hargreaves played that role to give the likes of Ronaldo the freedom to attack and cover Wes Brown.who was marauding forward from RB. Fergie also used Park in alot of big games to provide defensive balance. Casemiro does that at Real Madrid and many on here called him mediocre and the evidence is in the relevant thread in the football forum.

 

[KennyBurner]

Im seeing a lot of declan Rice but have we all forgotten about Sean Longstaff? Is he no longer a good prospect?

 

[Adnan]

Im seeing a lot of declan Rice but have we all forgotten about Sean Longstaff? Is he no longer a good prospect?

He had a poor season but is still young enough to comeback to form next season. I was particularly impressed with him in the little I saw him of him under Benitez but under Bruce he hasn't looked the same player. For £20m he was worth a punt imo but Newcastle wanted £50m which ended the discussion and rightly so.

 

[manuchamp88]

He had a poor season but is still young enough to comeback to form next season. I was particularly impressed with him in the little I saw him of him under Benitez but under Bruce he hasn't looked the same player. For £20m he was worth a punt imo but Newcastle wanted £50m which ended the discussion and rightly so.

Both your typical overrated English players. If we had to buy from our league, would much rather get a star quality player like Neves or Ndidi.

 

[Adnan]

Both your typical overrated English players. If we had to buy from our league, would much rather get a star quality player like Neves or Ndidi.

Neves tbf is also far from being star quality and is vastly over rated on this forum for some reason.

I don't think Ndidi would be worth the outlay.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

You conveniently forget that we've had mobile players like Hargreaves in 08 and Fletcher later who did the leg work for Carrick. It's fine mentioning Carrick but don't forget the midfield as a unit and it's function. And it's not only about mobility but ability on the ball too because without that none of the players touted on here would be playing at the top level in European football.

Just because I didn't talk about other players doesn't mean I "conveniently forgot" about them. Fletcher was a fantastic player for United and always turned up in the big games. And Hargraeves....ummm....yeah....no

 

[RooneyLegend]

How does this Koop character compare to De Jong?

 

[BenitoSTARR]

. The biggest clubs in the world are after him after his displays over the course of the season and the PSG game was what started it all which was the 2nd game of the season. He then maintained that consistency which is incredible for a young player. It's why Real Madrid want him and a host of other big clubs.

How do you know the biggest clubs are after him? Are you his agent?

I haven’t seen a single reputable source suggesting he’s getting a move to a big club.

Let’s see if these big clubs actually sign him.

Both your typical overrated English players. If we had to buy from our league, would much rather get a star quality player like Neves or Ndidi.

How can one say something so wrong about so many in so few words?

Ndidi stat quality? Rice typical English?

 

[AneRu]

That's the problem mate. He has the ability on the ball but doesn't have the mobility off the ball which would be the issue. Nuno also plays a very conservative system that hides his off the ball flaws which would get exposed in a team that wants to play a more adventurous approach.

Pogba will provide the control from the deeper role, we just need a Roy Keane/Arturo Vidal type to help maintain defensive balance in transition and help dominate zones defensively. That would allow Fernandes and Pogba the freedom to create in their respective roles. Camavinga would be the best all round player we could sign potentially due to his all round ability but that may not be possible due to the level of interest and he's also still very young too and it would be a risk due to how young he is still.

The problem is that we won't have Pogba and Bruno available for every game and for some games we might have both of them out. McTominay can be trusted to play the destroyer role but without Pogba and Bruno in that midfield we would struggle for midfield creativity so we need someone that can partner Pogba midfield but is also able to progress play when partnered with McTominay/Fred.

 

[groovyalbert]

For a deep-lying midfielder, I'd be in favour of buying from the Premier League. I think the role here is completely different here than in other leagues due to pace and physicality.

With that in mind, I don't think Declan Rice is a terrible shout, Ndidi the stand-out option this season but also Andre Gomes if you wanted a more technical solution. I rate Gomes really highly, think he's probably the most underrated midfielder in the league currently.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Sangare used to get mentioned here. How has he been this season

 

[FootyGirl88]

For a deep-lying midfielder, I'd be in favour of buying from the Premier League. I think the role here is completely different here than in other leagues due to pace and physicality.

With that in mind, I don't think Declan Rice is a terrible shout, Ndidi the stand-out option this season but also Andre Gomes if you wanted a more technical solution. I rate Gomes really highly, think he's probably the most underrated midfielder in the league currently.

If we buy from the PL it will be very expensive, unless we buy from a relegation team.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

For a deep-lying midfielder, I'd be in favour of buying from the Premier League. I think the role here is completely different here than in other leagues due to pace and physicality.

With that in mind, I don't think Declan Rice is a terrible shout, Ndidi the stand-out option this season but also Andre Gomes if you wanted a more technical solution. I rate Gomes really highly, think he's probably the most underrated midfielder in the league currently.

The best CDMs in the PL currently came to the PL from the following:

• Ndidi - KRC Genk - Belgium
• Fernandinho - Shakhtar Donetsk - Ukraine
• Fabinho - AS Monaco - France
• Kante*- SM Caen - France
• Matic** - MFK Kosice (FC VSS Kosice) - Slovakia

* Could argue he’s a CM
** Could argue he proved himself at Benfica

It’s not hard to judge if you know what to look for. The last great CDM purely from English leagues was probably Carrick? I don’t think that suggests to me British is best.

Your own supposed stand out player came from Genk. Would you say the Belgian league does have enough pace and power in it?

It’s a very regressive argument that the PL is the only league with pace and power stupid in fact. Players don’t have to be on British soil to be physically able bear in mind they are professional athletes. There isn’t some magic dust that players sprinkle on themselves once they arrive to the PL.

A good strength and conditioning coach should be able to get any dedicated professional up to the physical standards required.

To finish on a positive I too like Gomes.

 

[Lash]

How is Merino doing at Real Sociedad?

Really good. Arguably one of la Real's best players this season. There's an article here who suggested Marcel Bout liked what he saw from him too, when he was at the Valencia vs Sociedad game.
https://real-sociedad.diariovasco.com/espias-anoeta-jugadores-20200224113124-nt.html

I actually really liked him when he was at Newcastle, he was just a bit lightweight, but had a great eye for a pass. He reminds me of Matic a bit, not as imposing, but much better feet. I'd be surprised if they let him go though.

 

[Adnan]

How do you know the biggest clubs are after him? Are you his agent?

I haven’t seen a single reputable source suggesting he’s getting a move to a big club.

Let’s see if these big clubs actually sign him.

How can one say something so wrong about so many in so few words?

Ndidi stat quality? Rice typical English?

You don't need to be the players agent to make the claim that Real Madrid and many other big clubs are chasing the 17 year old. Infact one would have to be living under a rock for the last 10 months to say otherwise.

 

[Adnan]

Just because I didn't talk about other players doesn't mean I "conveniently forgot" about them. Fletcher was a fantastic player for United and always turned up in the big games. And Hargraeves....ummm....yeah....no

Hargreaves may have been injured for a large part but was more important than Carrick in the 08 season IMO. We don't need a Carrick because we have Pogba who could do that role and has done it on a far bigger stage in the world Cup with Matuidi and Kante next to him.

 

[AneRu]

If we buy from the PL it will be very expensive, unless we buy from a relegation team.

I think Rice is the only realistic signing from the PL and he won't come for anything less than £50m. The good thing about him is that he can cover the CB role too.

It's important to realise that we still need a Right Forward too so what we can spend on a DM will depend on what we spend on this position. But if we were to have a fire sale for our deadwood and be creative with the Dean Henderson situation (sell with a buyback clause) I think we could achieve both.

 

[Adnan]

The problem is that we won't have Pogba and Bruno available for every game and for some games we might have both of them out. McTominay can be trusted to play the destroyer role but without Pogba and Bruno in that midfield we would struggle for midfield creativity so we need someone that can partner Pogba midfield but is also able to progress play when partnered with McTominay/Fred.

What we should do instead is sign Moutinho on a short term deal from Wolves if possible which would enable us to bring Hannibal Mejbri through which would suit us better better due to the potential of the 17 year old.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Sangare used to get mentioned here. How has he been this season

Not on the same level as before the injury. Hard to say if this is down to the team, manager changes or Sangare himself.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

You don't need to be the players agent to make the claim that Real Madrid and many other big clubs are chasing the 17 year old. Infact one would have to be living under a rock for the last 10 months to say otherwise.

Show me one reliable (Tier 2+) source.

It’s all speculation.

 

[RashyForPM]

My aim for United, and what the club itself should aim for too, in to win the league by 2021-22. With that in mind, a world class or potentially world class DM is needed to provide stability when Pogba and Bruno attack to win games for us. Therefore, my 3 main attainable DM targets/Matic replacements in this order are:

1) Ndidi - It tells us all we need to know about him is that he is practically the only player whose formed hasn’t dipped along with Leicester’s collective performances in 2020. He has never looked out of place in the PL and regularly is close to the top for tackles and interceptions. It is not just that though, as he can pick a pass as well as Matic too. Also, he is still only 23 and will be anchoring our midfield for 10 years if we buy him. Fantastic player and my top DM target.

2) Partey - He can do the donkey work as well as Ndidi and progress the ball better. Along with that, he genuinely has the same level of shooting of as top attacking midfielders like Bruno, Coutinho and KdB. He’s even proven himself to be one of the best DMs in the CL. Furthermore, he is versatile as I’ve watched him play a fantastic game at RB live. However, he isn’t number 1 as while it sounds cliche and unimportant, he isn’t PL proven. Chelsea thought they were getting a coup when they pumped £40m for Bakayoko, who was everything I said about Partey for Monaco in 2016-17. That didn’t work out well, and while I think Partey’s better than Bakayoko, he’s still just a close second to Ndidi.

3) Rice - He has become one of West Ham’s leaders at the spritely young age of 21, and while none of his attributes are currently at the level of Ndidi or Partey, he has many more years to develop. Like Partey though, he is versatile and is as good as CB as he is at DM, which just about helps him edge out Neves, who is a better footballer than all 3 but isn’t renowned for his defensive work. Being English, Rice would also be more likely to understand what it mean to play for Man United and give his all in every game. Not saying Ndidi and Partey wouldn’t though!

For me, should we snap one of these 3 up and allow Matic to act as a backup and mentor on the mental side of the role (when to commit etc), our DM position will be sorted for the next 10 years.

 

[Devil may care]

I don't think Fred is good enough as a work horse. McTominay could be potentially but it's still a big if he can learn the role for the standard we require which is competing against the European big guns and City, Liverpool domestically.

I could be wrong but Hannibal Mejbri I believe will be drafted in as back up to Pogba in the not too distant future. And from what i've seen of that kid at Monaco and currently at United he has the classic playmaking qualities to run a game from a deeper role or slightly advanced as a creative #8. I'm very excited with his potential.

Interesting mate, I think Fred is good enough but he's maybe not suited to a squad role where he can come in and out and perform, it seems like he might need the starting role to keep his confidence up and obviously that's not going to happen.

I know you and many Academy watchers feel Mejbri is on that Greenwood track and I'm hoping you are right, all I'm saying is I want a holder that can distribute through the lines as well as screen the back 4, like Carrick and Fernadinho, I'm in favour of having as many ball players in midfield as possible.

 

[Adnan]

Show me one reliable (Tier 2+) source.

It’s all speculation.

I'll show you tier 1.

Mohamed Bouhafsi who works for RMC is the journo behind the story.

https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.c...ave-accelerated-talks-with-eduardo-camavinga/

 

[Adnan]

Interesting mate, I think Fred is good enough but he's maybe not suited to a squad role where he can come in and out and perform, it seems like he might need the starting role to keep his confidence up and obviously that's not going to happen.

I know you and many Academy watchers feel Mejbri is on that Greenwood track and I'm hoping you are right, all I'm saying is I want a holder that can distribute through the lines as well as screen the back 4, like Carrick and Fernadinho, I'm in favour of having as many ball players in midfield as possible.

I could be wrong mate but that kid I feel is gonna be a world class playmaker. His touch and technique combined with incredible awareness is gonna propel him all the way to the top.

I'd sign Moutinho as Pogba back up for a season before Mejbri is ready.

 

[treble_winner]

These are just hypotheticals, but I'm considering something.

If we signed Declan Rice, wouldn't that mean we'd still need to sign another creative midfielder who'd rotate with Pogba and Bruno?

On the other hand, if we signed, let's say Partey or Ndombele(again, just using players that suit our situation, not necessarily targets), we'd likely have a player who can play as the DM, and move into a more forward thinking role when Pogba or Bruno need a rest or are injured(We are so dull and lost when one of them doesn't play at the moment it's pitiful), and will also allow Fred and McTominay to find a place in the team.

In consideration of our limited funds, etc. I wonder from what point of view Ole is looking at all this from?

Us signing Declan Rice and Sancho this summer would be like killing 4 birds with 2 stones.
Declan Rice can fill in at DM and also retreat deeper to play as a third CB, providing more protection for De Gea because he has experience playing as a CB too.
Sancho can fill in at both RW and AM, thus solving your case of signing another creative midfielder to rotate with Pogba and Bruno.
I haven't been a big fan of Declan Rice. But given our situation with the limited funds, he may suit our needs more than trying to sign Grealish.

 

[Goku23]

Partey is the obvious choice but given our owners track record of not wanting to spend im thinking Ndidi not sure who else is really United quality. Longstaff COULD be good but we dont know I think it will get sorted next summer anyway Sancho is priority this summer Matic can last another season

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I'll show you tier 1.

Mohamed Bouhafsi who works for RMC is the journo behind the story.

https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.c...ave-accelerated-talks-with-eduardo-camavinga/

I don’t see his name or proof he wrote it.

Usually he tweets to confirm too?

 

[Adnan]

I don’t see his name or proof he wrote it.

Usually he tweets to confirm too?

The name is there at the bottom of the article which should be more than enough proof for you.

https://rmcsport.bfmtv.com/football...e-les-discussions-avec-camavinga-1927099.html

 

[BenitoSTARR]

The name is there at the bottom of the article which should be more than enough proof for you.

https://rmcsport.bfmtv.com/football...e-les-discussions-avec-camavinga-1927099.html

Thank you

 

[Mark Pawelek]

How does this Koop character compare to De Jong?

De Jong plays for Barca so is completely out of reach. He'll cost about 3 or 4 times Koopmeiners' price. Koopmeiners seems to take a lot of penalties and free kicks. So actually scores goals. My only concern with Koopmeiners is slow centre defence. Majuire and Linderof aren't fast players; nor is Koopmeiners. Although he is faster than Matic! I think the solution to slow centre defence should be finding a faster centre back to pair with Maguire. Koopmeiners can also play centre back, and has recently been doing so.

Frenkie de Jong​	Teun Koopmeiners​
Barcelona​	AZ Alkmaar​
Very expensive​	Reasonable fee​
Slightly more accurate short passing​	​
More mobile?​	​
​	Bigger goal threat​
​	Better defence​

 

[K_Ash]

Thank you

but then again their Director of Football (Rennes) was on Team Duga this week and said there have been no talks about Camavinga with Real

 

[Irish_Red]

I think if the right move doesnt appear for a player of the likes of Saul or Koopmeiners then I would be happy with just focusing primarily on getting a quality RW in.

I think people are overlooking Garner on this thread. It would appear that he is being groomed precisely for that Matic role. I would love to see him rotating more with Matic next season and clocking up some more minutes. He was top class with the U23s the last two seasons and is exactly the type of player that would fit perfectly in that role.

He is a top quality passer and an excellent shield in front of the defense (has played at CB on numerous occasions). In the last year he has added goals to his game also.
He needs time to settle into the first team however. In the few cameos afforded to him at that level he played well within himself and looked understandably nervous.

I don't think he is blessed with the same self confidence of Greenwood or Williams but if he was given time to find his feet I reckon he could flourish.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Hargreaves may have been injured for a large part but was more important than Carrick in the 08 season IMO. We don't need a Carrick because we have Pogba who could do that role and has done it on a far bigger stage in the world Cup with Matuidi and Kante next to him.

Pogba gets to be as good as he is right now because of Matic. And no, Hargraeves was not more important than Carrick. Hargraeves was a utility player who filled in at RB, RW and midfield when needed. Saying he was more important than Carrick would be like saying O'Shea was more important than Scholes...

 

[Devil may care]

I could be wrong mate but that kid I feel is gonna be a world class playmaker. His touch and technique combined with incredible awareness is gonna propel him all the way to the top.

I'd sign Moutinho as Pogba back up for a season before Mejbri is ready.

Oh I'm not doubting him mate, like with Greenwood it seems most feel he's a special talent, shame there likely wont be a pre-season tour for him to get a run out with the first team squad.

Is Moutinho on a free? Just it seems to me all our deals we are looking at are long term, Igalho being a special circumstances loan.

 

[Josh 76]

Pogba gets to be as good as he is right now because of Matic. And no, Hargraeves was not more important than Carrick. Hargraeves was a utility player who filled in at RB, RW and midfield when needed. Saying he was more important than Carrick would be like saying O'Shea was more important than Scholes...

What nonsense.
Comparing Hargreaves to O'Shea is an embassment.
Hargreaves was good as any midfielder from 2005-2008.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

What nonsense.
Comparing Hargreaves to O'Shea is an embassment.
Hargreaves was good as any midfielder from 2005-2008.

No he wasn't. He had his best games for us on the wing and at RB...