Potential Matic Replacements

[Adnan]

Pogba gets to be as good as he is right now because of Matic. And no, Hargraeves was not more important than Carrick. Hargraeves was a utility player who filled in at RB, RW and midfield when needed. Saying he was more important than Carrick would be like saying O'Shea was more important than Scholes...

Hargreaves in that one season was important because the role he was filling allowed the forwards and fullbacks to attack. Carrick couldn't do that role and that is the role that needs filling in a team with a manager who plays the high press. We already have Pogba as the deep playmaker and need someone to do the leg work next to him and advance play. And how on earth was Hargreaves a utility player when we'd forked out a considerable sum to sign him from Bayern where he won the champions league.

Pirlo joined Juve after his stock had fallen and was a rejuvenated player playing next to Arturo Vidal who allowed both Pirlo and Pogba to express themselves due to his monster capability in defensive transition.

Name me one team that plays a high press and doesn't have a player that has mobility in defensive transition? Even Ajax paired Schone with Frenkie de Jong to provide the balance in midfield.

We need a Roy Keane or Vidal type in the system Ole is implementing because it can't be implemented to it's full potential with Matic because he isn't anywhere close to either defensively. If you think Matic is gonna be the answer then he will be for the remaining games due to the opposition being a bit crap but the rude awakening will arrive by next season and this thread will be very active.

 

[Adnan]

Oh I'm not doubting him mate, like with Greenwood it seems most feel he's a special talent, shame there likely wont be a pre-season tour for him to get a run out with the first team squad.

Is Moutinho on a free? Just it seems to me all our deals we are looking at are long term, Igalho being a special circumstances loan.

Not sure mate but signing him on the cheap would be brilliant for the short term. He's also a fantastic technician that I love to watch.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Hargreaves in that one season was important because the role he was filling allowed the forwards and fullbacks to attack. Carrick couldn't do that role and that is the role that needs filling in a team with a manager who plays the high press. We already have Pogba as the deep playmaker and need someone to do the leg work next to him and advance play. And how on earth was Hargreaves a utility player when we'd forked out a considerable sum to sign him from Bayern where he won the champions league.

Pirlo joined Juve after his stock had fallen and was a rejuvenated player playing next to Arturo Vidal who allowed both Pirlo and Pogba to express themselves due to his monster capability in defensive transition.

Name me one team that plays a high press and doesn't have a player that has mobility in defensive transition? Even Ajax paired Schone with Frenkie de Jong to provide the balance in midfield.

We need a Roy Keane or Vidal type in the system Ole is implementing because it can't be implemented to it's full potential with Matic because he isn't anywhere close to either defensively. If you think Matic is gonna be the answer then he will be for the remaining games due to the opposition being a bit crap but the rude awakening will arrive by next season and this thread will be very active.

If you have read my posts on this, I have said that DM is the second most important signing that we need. But not because I don't like what Matic has been doing, but because he is on the wrong side of 31. The disrespect (or perhaps under appreciation could be the better term) that he gets is very similar to how people talked about Carrick. Carrick was never truly appreciated by most supporters until after he retired.

Pogba has been fantastic since he's been back. There has been nothing holding him back and that is because of the man behind him and the man in front of him.

In that "one season" Hargraves rarely played as a DM. Most of the time he was on the wing or RB. Carrick and Scholes were our midfielders most of the time. He was a utility player at Bayern, a utility player for us, and a utility player for England. Even in the Champions League final, the biggest game of the year, he played at RW while Carrick and Scholes were in the middle...

 

[Adnan]

If you have read my posts on this, I have said that DM is the second most important signing that we need. But not because I don't like what Matic has been doing, but because he is on the wrong side of 31. The disrespect (or perhaps under appreciation could be the better term) that he gets is very similar to how people talked about Carrick. Carrick was never truly appreciated by most supporters until after he retired.

Pogba has been fantastic since he's been back. There has been nothing holding him back and that is because of the man behind him and the man in front of him.

In that "one season" Hargraves rarely played as a DM. Most of the time he was on the wing or RB. Carrick and Scholes were our midfielders most of the time. He was a utility player at Bayern, a utility player for us, and a utility player for England. Even in the Champions League final, the biggest game of the year, he played at RW while Carrick and Scholes were in the middle...

Hargreaves never played the RW. He was deployed as a right sided midfielder to allow the RWF and RB to attack and he covered the vacatated space.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Hargreaves never played the RW. He was deployed as a right sided midfielder to allow the RWF and RB to attack and he covered the vacatated space.

--------------------------------------VDS---------------------------------
Brown------------Rio---------------------Vidic----------------Evra
Hargraeves-------Scholes-----Carrick---------------CR7
-------------------Tevez-------------------Rooney-------------------

"He never played the RW he played right midfield"....come on. Now you're just looking for ways to disagree

 

[Adnan]

--------------------------------------VDS---------------------------------
Brown------------Rio---------------------Vidic----------------Evra
Hargraeves-------Scholes-----Carrick---------------CR7
-------------------Tevez-------------------Rooney-------------------

"He never played the RW he played right midfield"....come on. Now you're just looking for ways to disagree

You're embarrassing yourself.. We deployed a 4-3-3

 

[AneRu]

Hargreaves in that one season was important because the role he was filling allowed the forwards and fullbacks to attack. Carrick couldn't do that role and that is the role that needs filling in a team with a manager who plays the high press. We already have Pogba as the deep playmaker and need someone to do the leg work next to him and advance play. And how on earth was Hargreaves a utility player when we'd forked out a considerable sum to sign him from Bayern where he won the champions league.

Pirlo joined Juve after his stock had fallen and was a rejuvenated player playing next to Arturo Vidal who allowed both Pirlo and Pogba to express themselves due to his monster capability in defensive transition.

Name me one team that plays a high press and doesn't have a player that has mobility in defensive transition? Even Ajax paired Schone with Frenkie de Jong to provide the balance in midfield.

We need a Roy Keane or Vidal type in the system Ole is implementing because it can't be implemented to it's full potential with Matic because he isn't anywhere close to either defensively. If you think Matic is gonna be the answer then he will be for the remaining games due to the opposition being a bit crap but the rude awakening will arrive by next season and this thread will be very active.

I agree with you to an extent and this is something that @Devil may care alluded to yesterday. Matic, since joining us, always runs out of steam in the latter parts of the season and that affects us. So there is clearly a need for a replacement/understudy/competitor but the debate lies in what type of player should that person be.

I am more in favour of deep lying playmaker but also share the concerns that you highlighted regarding partnering that player with Pogba and Bruno in the tougher matches. In this regard someone who is defensively solid, even if is a basic passer, could do because he would give Pogba and Fernandes the platform to create and stop counters in the defensive transition.

 

[Adnan]

I agree with you to an extent and this is something that @Devil may care alluded to yesterday. Matic, since joining us, always runs out of steam in the latter parts of the season and that affects us. So there is clearly a need for a replacement/understudy/competitor but the debate lies in what type of player should that person be.

I am more in favour of deep lying playmaker but should also share the concerns that you highlighted regarding partnering that player with Pogba and Bruno in the tougher matches. In this regard someone who is defensively solid, even if is a basic passer, could do because he would give Pogba and Fernandes the platform to create and stop counters in the defensive transition.

I'm with you mate. We need to find the right balance defensively because creativity in such a approach will come from many many players.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

You're embarrassing yourself.. We deployed a 4-3-3

No we didn't. Watch the highlights and tell me where you see Hargraeves. He's either on the right side or well inside the 18 when we are attacking. If we played a 4-3-3 and he's that far up the field that would suggest that he was an attacking midfielder. Is that what you're trying to say? Give your head a shake. He played on the right of a 4-4-2. If you don't believe me, take it from Hargraeves himself...


‘We practised before the Champions League final against Chelsea that year, he was on one side of the box and I was on the other.'

 

[Adnan]

No we didn't. Watch the highlights and tell me where you see Hargraeves. He's either on the right side or well inside the 18 when we are attacking. If we played a 4-3-3 and he's that far up the field that would suggest that he was an attacking midfielder. Is that what you're trying to say? Give your head a shake. He played on the right of a 4-4-2. If you don't believe me, take it from Hargraeves himself...


‘We practised before the Champions League final against Chelsea that year, he was on one side of the box and I was on the other.'

We did not play the 4-4-2. Hargreaves played in a midfield 3 on the right side. I'm not sure why you're even arguing this.

 

[Dante]

We did not play the 4-4-2. Hargreaves played in a midfield 3 on the right side. I'm not sure why you're even arguing this.

He's right. Hargreaves played on the right of a 4-4-2 in Moscow.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

We did not play the 4-4-2. Hargreaves played in a midfield 3 on the right side. I'm not sure why you're even arguing this.

No he did not

Watch these highlights and tell me that's the position of a right sided midfielder in a 4-3-3 and not a right winger in a 4-4-2. These are just Hargraeves highlights. He is along the right wing for almost the entire clip and when he is more towards the middle he is ahead of both Scholes and Carrick (in other words, he has cut in from the wing). It was a 4-4-2. Hargraeves played on the right. He was not a midfielder in a 4-3-3. My god, I even quoted him and you don't believe me. Some people will say just about anything so they don't have to admit they were wrong about something...

 

[SadlerMUFC]

He's right. Hargreaves played on the right of a 4-4-2 in Moscow.

Thank you. I've quoted Hargraeves himself saying he was on the right and he still won't let it go

 

[Adnan]

He's right. Hargreaves played on the right of a 4-4-2 in Moscow.

According to?

 

[Dante]

According to?

Human beings with eyes who watched the match.

 

[Adnan]

No he did not

Watch these highlights and tell me that's the position of a right sided midfielder in a 4-3-3 and not a right winger in a 4-4-2. These are just Hargraeves highlights. He is along the right wing for almost the entire clip and when he is more towards the middle he is ahead of both Scholes and Carrick (in other words, he has cut in from the wing). It was a 4-4-2. Hargraeves played on the right. He was not a midfielder in a 4-3-3. My god, I even quoted him and you don't believe me. Some people will say just about anything so they don't have to admit they were wrong about something...

He did not play as a winger. That's even more than your statement that Inter Milan don't plan for the long term.

 

[Adnan]

Human beings with eyes who watched the match.

Which I did.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

We did not play the 4-4-2. Hargreaves played in a midfield 3 on the right side. I'm not sure why you're even arguing this.

Can confirm. 4-4-2. Saw the game. Hargreaves played RM.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

He did not play as a winger. That's even more than your statement that Inter Milan don't plan for the long term.

Wow....holding grudges are you? I must have left an impact. If you watched that video of Hargraeves highlights and STILL want to say that he was in a midfield 3 instead of playing on the right side of a 4, then I don't know what else to possibly say. When someone is proved to be wrong, they have 3 options. They can either admit that they were wrong, walk away and don't say anything else, or continue with their original argument regardless of how stupid it makes them look. You are obviously going with option 3...

 

[SadlerMUFC]

According to?

Hargraves himself

 

[Adnan]

Can confirm. 4-4-2. Saw the game. Hargreaves played RM.

Not rw then?

 

[Adnan]

Hargraves himself

He played in midfield on the right side and in offensive transition helped with the build up and in defensive transition plugged the gap vacated by Brown at RB who got the assist for Ronaldo's goal.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Not rw then?

Seriously? You are so obsessed with "being right" that you are going to grasp at straws over the wording of a right winger and right midfielder. We played a 4-4-2 with Hargraeves on the right, CR7 on the left and Scholes and Carrick in the middle. Some will call that a right winger, some will call that a right midfielder. Bottom line is we did NOT play a 4-3-3. We played 4-4-2 with Hargaeves on the right. Watch the video I posted and tell me otherwise

 

[Hugh Jass]

We did not play the 4-4-2. Hargreaves played in a midfield 3 on the right side. I'm not sure why you're even arguing this.

Pretty sure we played with Hargreves on the right in that final.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

He played in midfield on the right side and in offensive transition helped with the build up and in defensive transition plugged the gap vacated by Brown at RB who got the assist for Ronaldo's goal.

You just keep out doing yourself. Tell me where Hargraves is during Brown's assist. To help you out a bit, Hargraeves is #4

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Not rw then?

How can I put this clearly:

• He played RM
• He played the RM/RW role of 4-4-2
• He was playing out wide on the right side of the pitch
• His job was to provide width on our right side
• He was the right most player in our attack
• He was tasked with providing an option in the furthest right extreme of the pitch.

He did not play RCM if that is your question.

 

[Adnan]

Seriously? You are so obsessed with "being right" that you are going to grasp at straws over the wording of a right winger and right midfielder. We played a 4-4-2 with Hargraeves on the right, CR7 on the left and Scholes and Carrick in the middle. Some will call that a right winger, some will call that a right midfielder. Bottom line is we did NOT play a 4-3-3. We played 4-4-2 with Hargaeves on the right. Watch the video I posted and tell me otherwise

I've explained the difference and even mentioned the same thing in a post in the main forum two days ago regarding Hargreaves. He was deployed in that role for a specfic purpose. Ji Sung Park was used similarly against Barca to thwart Alves and Messi.

 

[Adnan]

You just keep out doing yourself. Tell me where Hargraves is during Brown's assist. To help you out a bit, Hargraeves is #4

I've covered that in my last post.

 

[Adnan]

How can I put this clearly:

• He played RM
• He played the RM/RW role of 4-4-2
• He was playing out wide on the right side of the pitch
• His job was to provide width on our right side
• He was the right most player in our attack
• He was tasked with providing an option in the furthest right extreme of the pitch.

He did not play RCM if that is your question.

He wasn't there to provide width because if that was the case Nani would've played who was better as a winger. He played due to his ability off the ball.

 

[Adnan]

Pretty sure we played with Hargreves on the right in that final.

I've never disputed that. He played on the right side as a midfielder while the winger was on the bench Nani.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I've explained the difference and even mentioned the same thing in a post in the main forum two days ago regarding Hargreaves. He was deployed in that role for a specfic purpose. Ji Sung Park was used similarly against Barca to thwart Alves and Messi.

I have no idea what post you're talking about, but if you said that Hargraeves played on the right of a 4-3-3 then you were wrong. He played on the right of a 4-4-2. Yes, Park played there in previous games. Without looking it up, and going off memory, I think we played a 4-5-1 in those matches against Barca. I could be wrong though. Either way, that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the finals and in the finals we played a 4-4-2 with Hargraeves on the right. This is not up for debate. It's a fact. I even quoted Hargraeves saying that "he played on one side of the box and Ronaldo the other". Do you think that is him suggesting that he was in a midfield 3? I even posted highlights of Hargraeves in the final where he is up and down the wing for pretty much the entire video. If you watch those hightlights and still insist that we Hargraeves played on the right side of a 4-3-3 then you are just being stubborn...

 

[SadlerMUFC]

How can I put this clearly:

• He played RM
• He played the RM/RW role of 4-4-2
• He was playing out wide on the right side of the pitch
• His job was to provide width on our right side
• He was the right most player in our attack
• He was tasked with providing an option in the furthest right extreme of the pitch.

He did not play RCM if that is your question.

He is too "proud" to admit he was wrong. I even quoted Hargraeves saying he played on the right and this guy won't admit he was wrong....

 

[Hugh Jass]

I've never disputed that. He played on the right side as a midfielder while the winger was on the bench Nani.

It was a 4-4-2 formation. Hargreves on one wing and Ronaldo on the other.

 

[Devil may care]

Not sure mate but signing him on the cheap would be brilliant for the short term. He's also a fantastic technician that I love to watch.

I remember a lot of us wanted him after Euro 12 (I think that was the tournemant) He'd have been a good Scholes replacement. These days we seem to be aiming long term. I know you feel Carmavigna is more likey to go to Real but with their history with young players and compared to the young emphasis our team has, I just wonder if he can be eticed as unlike Bellillingham game time can't be his primary concern if he goes to Real.

I agree with you to an extent and this is something that @Devil may care alluded to yesterday. Matic, since joining us, always runs out of steam in the latter parts of the season and that affects us. So there is clearly a need for a replacement/understudy/competitor but the debate lies in what type of player should that person be.

I am more in favour of deep lying playmaker but also share the concerns that you highlighted regarding partnering that player with Pogba and Bruno in the tougher matches. In this regard someone who is defensively solid, even if is a basic passer, could do because he would give Pogba and Fernandes the platform to create and stop counters in the defensive transition.

I'm with you mate. We need to find the right balance defensively because creativity in such a approach will come from many many players.

I get where you guys are coming from, if push comes to shove for balance we do need a player that can shield the back 4 as their main skill, but I guess I'm saying I'm greedy, I want that Carrick/Alonso/Fernandino style holder who is also quality on the ball, I really think Bruno Guimaraes fits the all round bill from what I've seen.

 

[Adnan]

I have no idea what post you're talking about, but if you said that Hargraeves played on the right of a 4-3-3 then you were wrong. He played on the right of a 4-4-2. Yes, Park played there in previous games. Without looking it up, and going off memory, I think we played a 4-5-1 in those matches against Barca. I could be wrong though. Either way, that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the finals and in the finals we played a 4-4-2 with Hargraeves on the right. This is not up for debate. It's a fact. I even quoted Hargraeves saying that "he played on one side of the box and Ronaldo the other". Do you think that is him suggesting that he was in a midfield 3? I even posted highlights of Hargraeves in the final where he is up and down the wing for pretty much the entire video. If you watch those hightlights and still insist that we Hargraeves played on the right side of a 4-3-3 then you are just being stubborn...

Up and down the wing was what his job was in transition with and without the ball.
Hargreaves saying he played on the right proves me right because hd didn't play as a winger.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

He wasn't there to provide width because if that was the case Nani would've played who was better as a winger. He played due to his ability off the ball.

You have a problem admitting you got something wrong. This is becoming a recurring theme in discussions.

I don't care if Nani was on the moon playing the fiddle. Hargreaves was RM/RW. He literally in every example of his game that night moved out wide.

Begone troll.

 

[Adnan]

It was a 4-4-2 formation. Hargreves on one wing and Ronaldo on the other.

It wasn't but i'd have to get into essay mode to explain which I don't have time for.

 

[Adnan]

You have a problem admitting you got something wrong. This is becoming a recurring theme in discussions.

I don't care if Nani was on the moon playing the fiddle. Hargreaves was RM/RW. He literally in every example of his game that night moved out wide.

Begone troll.

Ok I was wrong if it makes you happy. I was even wrong about Camavinga and the big clubs chasing him.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Up and down the wing was what his job was in transition with and without the ball.
Hargreaves saying he played on the right proves me right because hd didn't play as a winger.

OMG you are stubborn. Up and down the wing is not the job of a right sided midfielder in a 4-3-3. It is the job of a right sided midfielder (or winger) in a 4-4-2. You are so obsessed with being right you are now nitpicking on the use of the word "winger"...

 

[Hugh Jass]

It wasn't but i'd have to get into essay mode to explain which I don't have time for.

Ronaldo was given a license to go forward whilst Hargreaves was told to be more defensive, but it was a 4-4-2 formation.