Why did you leave out Aurelien Tchouameni? (Age: 21, Monaco player). Here he is against PSG:
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Potential Matic Replacements
- Thread starter FootyGirl88
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Locatelli, Bennacer and Neuhaus would be potentially good options IMO. Brozovic would also be a good option at his age due to his contract situation if what I was told in the Sancho thread is anything to go by. He is also still playing to a good level unlike Matic who many Chelsea fans said was finished when he left Chelsea. Brozovic also has high level IQ for a midfielder and has played in various different tactical plans under several very good coaches to a high level domestically, in European competition, and his NT Croatia, so comes with a wealth of experience which would benefit the likes of Jimmy Garner and Hannibal Mejbri in the game today.
From my understanding, Solskjaer wants to press high and play on the front foot. His Molde stint is evidence to that, and he's also said the same whilst he's been the manager at first team level at United. Below I'll provide my subjective opinion on how I believe he can potentially achieve that.
To effectively press high we must begin with the CBs and play a higher defensive line which would mean the CBs would need to defend the channels in 1v1 scenarios. So having a CB who is quick and agile is good, but that's not enough. The CBs must also have the IQ to understand their role and push up and close the space to back up the midfielders who will engage the opposition wide receiver(s) in a 3 pronged wolf pack like attack after the forwards trigger the press. I can go into more detail, but that in essence will create the conditions for the midfield, fullbacks and forwards to press high and counter press which will potentially result in us winning the ball back more effectively high up the pitch, which should in theory lay down the foundation for the midfield, fullbacks and forwards to play their game. That's something we can't do effectively as things stand, hence it's reported that Solskjaer wants to sign a CB who can thwart counters without the aid of his fullback, which makes sense to me.
So once the back line (CBs) creates the conditions for the more advanced midfielders to press and counter press, it's important we have midfielders who can both enforce the press and express themselves on the ball to a high level if we want to sustain attacks. And that's something our current midfield pair aren't good at, hence I believe we need two midfielders to come in to our first 11, which I don't think is gonna happen. I think we might end up with one, and I'd rather that player be someone who is adept at both the offensive and defensive game to a good level. I don't believe Declan Rice is that player. I would rather see a McFred-Locatelli double pivot, rather than a McFred-Rice double pivot, which will raise similar questions some of us are asking currently.
I've also seen people suggest Rice should be bought due to him having the ability to play like the lone ranger role in front of the back line which will free Pogba to attack from the double pivot. That IMO might work against the weaker teams but I'm pretty confident it would back fire badly against any quality team. The reason I say that is due to the left and right defensive zones being very wide infront of the LCB and RCB. If the opposition springs a quick counter on the turn-over we will be left with a potential 5v3 scenario at the worst or a more likely 3v3 scenario which isn't something we should contemplate doing. I don't believe Pogba suits a two man midfield, but if he is to play there, he must simplify his game and play with discipline both on and off the ball, which I don't believe he's strong at, and neither is he adept at enforcing a press/counter press. So if Pogba is to play as the LCM in the double pivot, his zonal partnership will be with Maguire, Shaw and Rashford. Rice would be in a zonal partnership with Lindelof, Wan Bissaka and Mason on the right if I use the players at the club currently.
The attack I feel does need a striker long-term and Sancho who I'm hopeful will arrive. But apart from that, we look set in attack, with just the midfield that needs upgrading, which will bind it all together.
good analysis
Nice post. I was saying the same thing at the same time in the Rice thread. Put Rice with Pogba mcfred or Matic in a 2 and we are looking exactly the same. Imagine a McT Rice midfield. Grim.
Well tbh I have never heard of him. Seen a two or three Monaco games this season, but with links last summer I was watching Badiashille mainly, who from the little I saw, looked very over rated, in terms of development and beingn ready to step up to a big move anyway
I agree with all of them. But Brozovic, is there a player like that in the PL?
The way I understand your post you primarily want a player who can improve our transition play. I want that too. That is where we have to improve.
But it is my impression that Liverpool and Man City progress more through their CBs and fullbacks than through Fabinho/Henderson/Winjaldum and Rodri/Fernandinho. Chelsea under Tuchel show a similar pattern. Liverpool bought the best transition midfielder in the PL, but he has not been as good as I expected.
I think Liverpool prefer progressing through the wide areas of the pitch since it is less dangerous to lose the ball there. And I think they progress through their CBs as they get more time and space (few teams take the risk of pressing that high against them). In central area of the pitch, infront of their CBs, they take very low risk (basically no risk at all) with Fabinho, Henderson and Winjaldum.
In my opinion City is very similar; Rodri/Fernandinho is no risk players for them.
I think we need a player like that too. And I think we need to improve our transition play through a better RB and CB next to Maguire. Rice is not a Brozovic, but he would be a big improvement on McTominay. In other words, I tink we could improve our transition play by improving three players, even if it is not a Brozovic, Locatelli or Bennacer.
I’ve always wanted a Carrick or Xabi-type of player for our midfield. But the way teams press these days in the PL, always trying to create «breakdowns» infront of the CBs, I’m not sure it would work the way it used to.
I would love to see Kimmich brought to the club, but can't see it happening.
Good post and you make some good points. And you're absolutely correct, I want us to transition play at a high level.
Brozovic I feel if he was playing under Guardiola, we'd probably see him mimic what Rodri is doing at City or what Tuchel had Weigl doing at Dortmund. Because if I'm not mistaken, both coaches follow the juego de posecion concept which requires the players to play with in a structured setup where dominating the ball to gain superiority is key. So you need your players to be well drilled positionally which is important. But the key facet in all this is to play front foot football with a higher defensive line within a set structure where players pass and receive the ball without moving too much. So the objective isn't to move the ball, but rather to move the opponent to create space for the free man or create space for one of your strong dribblers to isolate the pre-determined weakness in the one of the individuals in the opposition team. So you keep manoeuvring the ball by keeping shape and creating rondos and if it breaks down, you regroup and regain shape and go again until you succeed. So positional play is key in all this. I haven't followed Tuchel closely since he was at Dortmund so I'm not sure what progress he's made regarding the implementation of his ideas at Chelsea. But at Dortmund he added to Klopp's pressing principles with a more structured approach which required strong positional play, similar to what Guardiola implements. Van Gaal also follows similar principles but unfortunately was given too much control when it came to recruitment which put paid to his chances to succeed.
Liverpool do progress play through their wide receivers, and tbh with you, they have two of the very best ones when it comes to building the play in the league. But unfortunately I don't think we have the same luxury especially on our right side.
I agree, Rice would be a big improvement on McTominay. And I'm also of the opinion there's more than one way to win a game of football by way of playing a expansive game. But I just don't feel we have the fullbacks (except Shaw) who have the ability in transition, or the craft, guile and ingenuity in advanced areas as yet with the exception of Fernandes who is a high risk player which results in excessive turnovers. Maybe Sancho or Grealish could add that little bit extra which may make a difference in us exerting more control higher up the pitch which may tilt the balance and make a midfield of McFred-Rice more effective.
Not sure how to embed it but interesting comparison between Rice and Locatelli.
https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=8t0Enb6ER3VTKOR4yvRG-
https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=8t0Enb6ER3VTKOR4yvRG-
The opposite. The more teams press, the more space they leave behind, the more opportunity that presents for a Carrick or Xabi-type player.
Yeah agree with this. I think Locatelli should be considered. Rice is preferred by most mainly because he's done it in the PL. But Locatelli is what people are looking for when they want someone a DM that is defensively sound and can pass well.
If we get a proper DM like Locatelli. He'd be a really good complement to Fred. I'd still like us to test out a Pogba - Locatelli double pivot (if Ole still wants 4-2-3-1) and see if we can make it work. If it doesn't then we should not dwell on it or force it , just make Pogba compete with Bruno and Rashford for their positions where his abilities shine. He could still gets the odd game at the double pivot.
Also I don't know much about tactics but given we have two full backs - Shaw and Awb that are good defensively, isn't there a way to make Pogba in a double pivot work by maybe telling the full backs to stay behind
I think this highlights their difference a little better and why Locatelli would be a more exciting signing for what we need:
Locatelli is among the top 3% for passes attempted, while having a very good completion rate and he's among the top 3% for progressive passes. Which is exactly what we have lacked, since Carrick retired and mostly only Pogba from deeper has done for us since. His shot-creating actions number is also a lot better.
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Ah, yes! More opportunity for a killer pass over the top and in behind the defence. I agree, you are right!
But in my opinion, it gets much harder for the deeplying playmaker to make that pass because he has less time and space! It is the area where the deeplying playmaker operates the teams usually focus their press.
Look at Liverpool last year, who made those long passes to Salah/Mane over the top? It was van Dijk and Gomez/Matip. Fabinho very rarely did that. When Fabinho and Henderson started operating at CB this year, they started to look like quarterbacks. At City, it is the same case.
I cant think of a single player who operates like Carrick/Xabi/Pirlo used too in terms of being very progressive and the player protecting the defence.
I agree, and I have been talking about Locatelli for awhile. But remember, their numbers are also a reflection of the team they are at. Sassuolo is amost like Swansea was a few years ago in the PL. They have a lot of possession, and play more attacking football. Locatelli numbers at West Ham would not have been the same, and Rice numbers at Sassuolo would be quite different too.
I have watched Locatelli quite a bit, he's much more creative and expansive with his passing, if he would play for West Ham, you would notice the same thing. If anything, I would take your point as more of reason why you could better predict, how Locatelli would fit in with us, since he's already playing for a team that likes to have possession.
Could be why we want Pau Torres
I have watched Locatelli quite a bit too (even made a thread about him awhile back). I agree, he is more creative and attacking. But I think it is very hard to compare when they play for two teams with different styles, and also different leagues.
While I agree that Locatelli is a different type of player, my point was that the passing-statistic also favour Locatelli a bit and could be a bit misleading.
Yes, Locatelli makes more passes than Rice, but Sassuolo would make alot of passes without Locatelli too. Probably even if Rice played there, and then Rice would make a lot more passes.
Yes, Locatelli has a higher completion rate than Rice. But again, so do Sassuolo compared to West Ham.
Yes, Locatelli makes more progressive passes, more passes into the box etc than Rice. But if you look at the amount of progressive passes as a share of their total passes, there is not much difference. In fact, a bigger share of Rice passes are into the box.
So while I agree in general, comparing numbers without putting them into context is difficult.
Why do you think there is seemingly such a lack of interest from the club in players like Locatelli, Brozovic & Neuhaus,surely it cannot be a lack of knowledge in the european market but after finding such a bargain in Bruno I cannot understand the reluctance to look there now.
I tend to a agree. There's not that many. In the EPL, maybe Jorginho, Kalvin Phillips and Neves.
In what way are Locatelli's passing numbers misleading though, especially if we would have a very similar role for us? He wouldn't be going to West Ham, where he would have less of the ball. If he were to play for us, similar to Sassuolo, he would play for a team that likely has more of the ball most of the time. Which makes a projection how he fit in with us easier compared to Rice. That does not mean that Rice wouldn't fit in with us, I just don't think Rice would be doing for Sassuolo what Locatelli is doing for them. I think if Locatelli would play for West Ham, they'd be a better team, since I think Locatelli is the better player of the two. Using West Ham's style as some sort of reason that Rice isn't doing it as much, doesn't mean one could automatically assume, that he would be a more progressive passer for Sassuolo.
Bring in Rice and bring back Garner. We need to move on Matic this season and hopefully Fred. There is some hope McT might turn into a decent player, but there's no hope for Fred. Garner should be given a chance for the first half of the season, a better passer than Fred and a better defender. Fred is a car crash.
Thanks, Locatelli is definitely more progressive on the ball than Rice and no slouch in the more defensive side of things. I'll always prefer the Locatelli type of player to the Rice style DM, but part of me feels Rice is our best chance of the club getting any sort of fix for our midfield, I just hope Ole realizes that pairing Pogba with him won't work.I think this highlights their difference a little better and why Locatelli would be a more exciting signing for what we need:
Locatelli is among the top 3% for passes attempted, while having a very good completion rate and he's among the top 3% for progressive passes. Which is exactly what we have lacked, since Carrick retired and mostly only Pogba from deeper has done for us since. His shot-creating actions number is also a lot better.
I think McTom will be Matic's replacement with Garner as a possible understudy.
You are right, and that is a good point.
Maybe I worded myself poorly. I did not intend to say that Locatteli stars are misleading. What I ment is that it can be misleading to put the numbers of a Sassuolo midfielder up against a West Ham midfielder. There are so many aspect we dont quite factor in.
I down try to downplay Locatelli at all. He is a player I really love watching and he would be exciting to see at Man Utd.
But when I see that Locatelli makes 83 passes per game and Rice makes 47 that looks like a huge difference between them on an individual level. But as a share of their team, Locatelli makes 13 % of his teams passes. Rice makes 11 % of his team. That, to me, tells a bit off a different story. Yes, Locatelli is a key player and a «ball metronome» for his team. But so is Rice actually. Last year, Locatelli, who is exactly one year older than Rice, also made 11 % of his teams passes. Just like Rice this year. In my opinion, that is a relevant context.
On average, Locatelli moves the ball 5,52 yards forward with each pass. Rice, on the other hand, moves it forward 4,8 yards. One year ago, Locatelli moved the ball 4,5 yards forward with each pass.
On average Locatelli makes 1,1 pass per game into the penalty box while Rice makes 0,66. It looks like a significant difference. But it is also the exact same difference between Sassuolo and West Ham. While Sassuolo completes 10,1 passes per 90 min into the penalty box, West Ham completes 6,66 per 90 min.
In my opinion all this is relevant information to consider when looking at passing stats. On an individual level the difference between Locatelli and Rice looks huge. But factor in the difference between their teams style and it looks much smaller. It is harder to factor in the difference in level between Serie A and Premier League and the fact that Rice is a year younger but it might also be relevant.
I think a good data scientist would be able to adjust for it. A good coach would develop Rice in a possession-system and get more from him than we can see today. Off that I’m sure.
My biggest pro-Locatelli argument is the price compared to Rice.
If I'm not mistaken, France made it work with Pogba in a two by playing Matuidi out wide, who took on the bulk of the defensive responsibility in the channel.
I think you could fit him in with other players helping him defensively. A 3 man back line could also be utilised with a CB directly behind Pogba on the right cleaning up in 1v1 situations. But I don't think it's worth the hassle for either us or the player and it would be best if he moves on, which pains me to say. Unfortunately it hasn't worked out and with the addition of Fernandes, I've lost hope now because, a 4-3-3 isn't a viable ploy anymore IMO.
Well, I hope we are looking more broadly than that and haven't focused our attention solely on him. There are plenty of good midfielders out there, but I also understand that the club or Ole might feel, that Rice has been there and done that in the league, whereas Locatelli could be more of a risk coming from Italy. Ironically, against Liverpool, I thought we looked better once Pogba dropped deeper.
I understood what you were trying to say. What I am trying to say is that a more creative, expansive and progressive passer will look the part, whether said player plays in possession-based team or not. Rodrigo is a good example of that. At Villareal and Atletico he was hardly playing for teams that had more of the ball most of the time, yet you could tell that he was very much capable of controlling the tempo of a game with his passing and he wasn't just a retention type of midfielder. My point is that Rice's numbers probably would look better in Sassuolo's system, but not to the extent that would match that of Locatelli's, otherwise we would see more of his progressiveness at West Ham already. At least that's been my experience from looking at players from a statistical point of view over the last few years.
Appreciate the effort in cranking the numbers like that, I agree that the biggest argument for Locatelli compared to Rice is what the Italian would cost.
However, this - ie, the long ball into the space behind the CBs - is also something that Lindelof have been doing quite well?
I think with Rice it's a Maguire or AWB type of thing, Ole is tracing Sir Alex footsteps to an extent, Locatelli would be my pick and I'd pair him with Camavinga, but it seems we've been trying to get midfield sorted since before Fergie retired and we still aren't close. We did look better from the perspective that McFred couldn't string 2 passes together and Pogba rectified that, but we also got caught out on the 4th goal down that channel, the risk/reward of Pogba in the double pivot is huge.Well, I hope we are looking more broadly than that and haven't focused our attention solely on him. There are plenty of good midfielders out there, but I also understand that the club or Ole might feel, that Rice has been there and done that in the league, whereas Locatelli could be more of a risk coming from Italy. Ironically, against Liverpool, I thought we looked better once Pogba dropped deeper.
Haven't seen much of Pau Torres, but the only reason I can imagine he's being recommended by some is probably because, as well as his passing range, he is solid defensively, too.
Lindelof, whilst our best passer from the back, has a few defensive flaws.
I just cant see Maguire being moved to the right side of defence next season. He's always played on the left.
We need someone who can pass from deeper to a high level imo and also understands the defensive requirements to control the defensive zone infront of one of the CBs. With finances taking a hit due to Covid it might be in our best interests to sign someone like a Koopmeiners from AZ Alkmaar. Pogba I thought could be that player, but his lack of defensive awareness in a deeper role will cost us dear IMO.
But if we don't sign anyone, then Garner or Mejbri should be brought into the rotation, because i'd like to see a Fred/Garner or Fred/Mejbri double pivot rather than the current combo which isn't gonna get us closer to challenging or helping us impose our game against quality teams.
But if we don't sign anyone, then Garner or Mejbri should be brought into the rotation, because i'd like to see a Fred/Garner or Fred/Mejbri double pivot rather than the current combo which isn't gonna get us closer to challenging or helping us impose our game against quality teams.
I love Mejbri, but he can't play in a double pivot. At least for now.
He started the season there and looked average, making couple of mistakes which led to conceding goals. And it was just U-23's level.
No coincidence he was put higher up the pitch, and he performed much better there.
I am quite sure even Galbraith is better than Hannibal as a CM. Again, at least for now.
Now you’re talking. Add a rice or locatelli in the squad instead of Matic and we have a lot more strong tactical and rotation possibilities.
I think he can, and those games you're referring to, was us struggling as a collective to beat the press. Mejbri at Monaco was used in all phases of play and he consistently helped the back line progress play.
He's only 17 or so, correct? And he's incredibly talented so I imagine if we coach him and give him experience as an 8 he could learn it and thrive. Even if he makes mistakes playing there next year we could keep playing him there with the U-23s and get him a full season's worth of experience.
I think he's talented enough and determined enough that he could even thrive as a number 6 if we tried it out and let him learn it.
Didn't you spend days arguing with @BenitoSTARR about not getting Koop?
I did, because I still had faith in Pogba, hence I wanted a more combative ball winning type at the time. Maybe next season i'll want a ball winning type again, if say a Mejbri or Garner come in and start to show their potential, which would make me change my thinking again.
He's 18 now and I keep hearing he needs a few more years like many were saying with Bellingham. The only way we're gonna know if they're ready, if we show the faith and actually play them.
True but the manager is trying to keep a job that he is in no way qualified for, so he doesn't have the luxury of taking chances and letting kids learn on the job. I think that also leads to the lack of rotation and running some players into the ground.
And the fans are different from Dortmund also. They have no expectations for winning things so they can let a handful of teenagers play each week, it won't really matter because they aren't going to catch Bayern anyway. United fans don't have the patience for long-term squad and player development. It happened this year with one of the most naturally gifted teenagers I've ever seen! Mason struggled at times and I remember seeing calls to send him on loan so he can learn and blah blah.
Haha, you can't keep changing your mind. I do tend to agree, though.
I think in McTominay and Fred, we have ball winners. Not the greatest when compared to some but they'd certainly fall into that category more than the playmaker type. Therefore, I personally believe we should have been always targeting a ball-playing midfielder.
I look at the role Kante plays for Chelsea in a pivot next to Jorginho, or even the one he played next to Drinkwater. A box to box ball-winner type, if you want. Fred could certainly perform that role for us but he just needs that playmaker behind like Koop, Locatelli, K.Phillips, etc.
No, he couldn't.
He doesn't have defensive awareness and ability. Especially for a DM/number 6.
Hannibal reminds me of Grealish.
It would be foolish to use him as a CDM or CM, for that matter. He has a lot to learn defensively. Though he has a motor, I can't say he's lazy. But he just lacks this defensive nous.
I'd be thrilled to see him as a left-sided attacker against Wolves. At least for 20-30 minutes.