Pro Cycling 2018

[Madthinker]

The interesting thing about Sky is how they are achieving their ill-gotten victories, not necessarily the fact they’ve won them. Five Tour de France wins now in six years for them, through three different cyclists, none of which are your classic GT-styled riders. Winning a GT is monumentally difficult yet Sky achieve it nonchalantly with riders with no GT pedigree in their past. Countries with storied histories in cycling have programmes in place to develop world-class cyclists and even they miss the mark quite often but Sky, in the last 6-8 years, have a conveyor belt of talent and a ‘next man up’ policy when it comes to collecting GT victories. It’s preposterous.

To win a GT, a rider almost invariably needs to be a good TT'er as well as a climber. I've no idea how anyone can suggest that Froome has not been the archetypal GT rider since his emergence. Thomas and Wiggins were definitely stronger on the TT side, but this isn't unique to Sky - the likes of Dumoulin and Roglic are finishing ahead of the purer climbers like Quintana and Bardet.

Sky don't achieve GT victories nonchalantly. It's not even worth arguing.

 

[Buchan]

To win a GT, a rider almost invariably needs to be a good TT'er as well as a climber. I've no idea how anyone can suggest that Froome has not been the archetypal GT rider since his emergence. Thomas and Wiggins were definitely stronger on the TT side, but this isn't unique to Sky - the likes of Dumoulin and Roglic are finishing ahead of the purer climbers like Quintana and Bardet.

Sky don't achieve GT victories nonchalantly. It's not even worth arguing.

Froome. Emergence. Not worth arguing? LOL.

What emergence would that be, then? At aged 26, with absolutely no previous indications he’d compete at GT level, he finished second in the Vuelta, just weeks before he was about to be bombed off Team Sky due to a very underwhelming stint with them and since then he’s gone on to achieve a career worthy of GOAT consideration?

Yep, totally legit.

 

[Madthinker]

How come these ‘super doms’, as you call them, only really amount to anything when with Sky and flop when they get too big for their boots and try challenge as the leaders of rival teams? It’s all rather convenient.

Meanwhile, Sky, littered with track-cyclists-and-time-triallists-cum-Grand-Tour-legends, win a Tour de France with a modest-pedigree operator like Thomas, who’d never had a top 10 finish in a GT before. It’s almost like we, as spectators, are expected to suspend disbelief and swallow everything Brailsford throws at us. It’s absolutely obscene.

Uran came 24th in the tour with Sky, and has come second since leaving (and was one on the favourites before crashing out this year)
Kwiatkowski came 11th in the tour aged 22 before he joined Sky (and was world champion). His best finish since is 49th
Porte came 7th in the Giro aged 24 before he joined Sky. His best finish with Sky was 19th. He's since finished 5th (2nd if we deduct time lost for mechanical) and been one of the big favourites in both the past 2 years (before crashing out).

So not exactly flops outside of Sky.

Maybe what is happening is exactly what you would expect to happen. When a very good GT rider is hired by a paid a lot of money by a rich team to be a domestique, they do their job supporting the leader and any good placing largely incidental and any poor placing is almost irrelevant. Thomas's 22nd, 15th and 15th in previous years are actually pretty good in context.

Oh and you can't call Thomas "modest-pedigree". He was a world class track cyclist, before becoming a world class classic rider, and a world class domestique.

Or rather you can do it, but you'd be wrong.

 

[Madthinker]

Froome. Emergence. Not worth arguing? LOL.

What emergence would that be, then? At aged 26, with absolutely no previous indications he’d compete at GT level, he finished second in the Vuelta, just weeks before he was about to be bombed off Team Sky due to a very underwhelming stint with them and since then he’s gone on to achieve a career worthy of GOAT consideration?

Yep, totally legit.

Why are you trying to link the "nonchalant" comment with Froome's emergence? There's a reason I separated them out into different paragraphs.

Your point about the type of rider Froome is, is absurdly wrong. I was just pointing that out.

If you want to talk about Froome's emergence, then it was spectacular (not nonchalant), but there are well documented reasons for that of course.

 

[Madthinker]

Thomas winning the Tour de France is just ...

He was never, ever a Grand Tour possibility. He was a talented cyclist but not a climber who would win on the big mountains for feck's sake. Sky might have gotten Cavendish a Tour win if they'd wanted to .

Yeah, that's just nonsense. Sky had Thomas as their joint leader for the Giro last year with Landa. Why would they do that if he wasn't a GT possibility?

And he's nothing like Cavendish.

 

[Buchan]

If you want to talk about Froome's emergence, then it was spectacular (not nonchalant), but there are well documented reasons for that of course.

During the Vuelta in 2011, Sky still hadn’t renewed Froome’s contract and were hawking him around the WT teams circuit. His Vuelta performance that year absolutely took Sky by surprise, never mind the casual cycling observer. And these ‘well documented’ reasons you speak of? There’s so many inconsistencies with those - and Froome’s chameleon-like versions of events - it’s laughable to even bring them up.

All in all, it’s incredibly disingenuous to downplay the enormity of Froome’s breakthrough. The man has a legit claim to be the GOAT cyclist yet he came from absolutely nowhere aged 26 when he was weeks away from being team-less. It’s incredible.

 

[Buchan]

Check out GOAT climber Chris Froome here at the Giro in 2009 (from 07:29 onwards). He nearly goes back down the hill such is his struggle.

 

[Madthinker]

This guy sums it up pretty succinctly:

"This is a guy who is 32 years old, who prior to this Tour never finished better then 15th in a GT, afaik never managed to have more then 1 decent mountain stage result (6th in 10th stage 2015), who out of the blue became the best rider and climber in the Tour who happens to win Sky's 5th TDF win in 6 years with 3 riders each one having a unique transformation into GC cyclist."

Thomas by winning also smashed a previous record of worst GC finish by a future Tour winner. He had finished 139/140 in his first tour, before joining Sky. Way worse than any other future winner. Coincidentally (or not) the previous record holder in that regard was Wiggins. Froome is also in the top 5.

When exactly would you have expected Thomas to finish better than 15th? When he was a domestique? When he was 4th until stage 19? When he was second in the Giro before crashing? When he was second in the tour before crashing? What gaping opportunities did he miss through lack of ability?

Of course he had many (more than) decent mountain stages - but not results, because that wasn't his job. Also, there's been no mention of his wins numerous GC in week-long stage races, beating the likes of Contador, Porte, Zakarin, Bardet, Costa, Yates, Martin, Rolland, Pinot, Pozzovivo, Scarponi and Landa.

You're trying to make out that a key marker of Thomas's career was him desperately slogging it out with Thor Hushovd for 139th spot over a decade ago. You must know that it's entirely irrelevant.

Seriously, anyone following his career to any extent should be able to see a consistent, explainable improvement over the years in his GT ability. And he's now at the point where he's managed to win one GT by a relatively small margin, when he was in by far the strongest team, with the 2 best rivals weakened by the Giro, and with the 3 next best crashing out. It's not that surprising.

 

[Madthinker]

During the Vuelta in 2011, Sky still hadn’t renewed Froome’s contract and were hawking him around the WT teams circuit. His Vuelta performance that year absolutely took Sky by surprise, never mind the casual cycling observer. And these ‘well documented’ reasons you speak of? There’s so many inconsistencies with those - and Froome’s chameleon-like versions of events - it’s laughable to even bring them up.

All in all, it’s incredibly disingenuous to downplay the enormity of Froome’s breakthrough. The man has a legit claim to be the GOAT cyclist yet he came from absolutely nowhere aged 26 when he was weeks away from being team-less. It’s incredible.

I didn't downplay the enormity of Froome's breakthrough. I called it spectacular.

Unless someone actual sets out a proper argument as to why Froome's story isn't credible, I'm not going to consider it "laughable".

Note: videos of Froome struggling to a 6th after trying to follow the stage winner, from a breakaway in only his second season in a vaguely proper team does not really count as evidence.

 

[RedFish]

I didn't downplay the enormity of Froome's breakthrough. I called it spectacular.

Unless someone actual sets out a proper argument as to Froome's story isn't credible, I'm not going to consider it "laughable".

Note: videos of Froome struggling to a 6th after trying to follow the stage winner, from a breakaway in only his second season in a vaguely proper team does not really count as evidence.

I chuckled at this.

 

[Ainu]

Check out GOAT climber Chris Froome here at the Giro in 2009 (from 07:29 onwards). He nearly goes back down the hill such is his struggle.

I don't see what's the point of this? It was only his second grand tour and he finished in 36th overall that Giro, not a sign of future greatness but hardly terrible. It was only his third year since turning pro. He'd win his first grand tour 4 years later.

During the Vuelta in 2011, Sky still hadn’t renewed Froome’s contract and were hawking him around the WT teams circuit. His Vuelta performance that year absolutely took Sky by surprise, never mind the casual cycling observer. And these ‘well documented’ reasons you speak of? There’s so many inconsistencies with those - and Froome’s chameleon-like versions of events - it’s laughable to even bring them up.

All in all, it’s incredibly disingenuous to downplay the enormity of Froome’s breakthrough. The man has a legit claim to be the GOAT cyclist yet he came from absolutely nowhere aged 26 when he was weeks away from being team-less. It’s incredible.

What? He has a claim to be among the great stage cyclists, though still well behind the all time greats in that area. Once you start taking into account one-day races as well, he's nowhere near the greats.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Viviani just won something in the track cycling. Something with silly name.

 

[RedFish]

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Not sure about the extent of his injuries, as SKY said he sustained serious facial trauma but only say he had a broken nose and unspecified maxiillary injury. Anyway, hope he recovers well.

Landa fractured his a vertebra also, and will be out of action for 2-3 weeks according to reports.

 

[Zen]

I'd have Froome very very much up there. The only thing holding him back is that he's actually a good sport....something Hinault, Mercyx, Armstrong, Contador etc were not, they wouldn't have had Wiggins or Thomas beating them, or at least ending up clearly working for them. He could easily have 3 more Grand Tours. Well yeah, and lack of classic/one day wins in general.

Holding all 3 in this era was a bonkers achievement. I put it up there with Pantani doping his way to the Giro-Tour double in the peak doping era, a massive feat itself.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

"124 laps to go"...after 20 minutes.

Track cycling, you're whack.

 

[senorgregster]

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Not sure about the extent of his injuries, as SKY said he sustained serious facial trauma but only say he had a broken nose and unspecified maxiillary injury. Anyway, hope he recovers well.

Landa fractured his a vertebra also, and will be out of action for 2-3 weeks according to reports.

Just released from hospital. Apparently he had a small bleed on the brain?

 

[RedFish]

Just released from hospital. Apparently he had a small bleed on the brain?

Just seen that on the BBC website, Doesn't specify what kind of haematoma but would have been small enough for them not to have surgery to evacuate the blood. They say he needs dental surgery too for fracturing several teeth. Poor guy! 2nd major crash this year.

 

[RedFish]

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Legend. Love Kwiato.

 

[RobinLFC]

Jan Ullrich hospitalized after yet another (drunk) incident My all-time favourite rider apart from Boonen probably, really hope he pulls through this time, but I doubt it given his history of substance abuse outside the sport.

 

[SirAF]

Jan Ullrich hospitalized after yet another (drunk) incident My all-time favourite rider apart from Boonen probably, really hope he pulls through this time, but I doubt it given his history of substance abuse outside the sport.

I saw that Armstrong travelled to Germany to visit Ullrich and offer his support - quite a nice touch.

 

[Barbara Charles]

Vuelta Entries:

World Tour Teams
AG2R La Mondiale
Tony Gallopin, Mickaël Chérel, Alexandre Geniez, Ben Gastauer, Hubert Dupont, Clément Chevrier, Alexis Gougeard, Nans Peters

Astana Pro Team
Pello Bilbao, Dario Cataldo, Omar Fraile, Jan Hirt, Miguel Ángel López, Nikita Stalnov, Davide Villella, Andrey Zeits

Bahrain Merida Pro Cycling Team
Luka Pibernik, Ivan Garcia Cortina, Ion Izagirre, Gorka Izagirre, Vincenzo Nibali, Mark Padun, Hermann Pernsteiner, Franco Pellizotti

BMC Racing Team
Dylan Teuns, Rohan Dennis, Richie Porte, Brent Bookwalter, Alessandro De Marchi, Nicolas Roche, Joey Rosskopf, José Francisco Ventoso

BORA – hansgrohe
Marcus Burghardt, Rafal Majka, Lukas Pöstlberger, Emanuel Buchmann, Peter Sagan, Michael Schwarzmann, Davide Formolo, Jay McCarthy

Dimension Data
Louis Meintjes, Igor Antón, Merhawi Kudus, Ryan Gibbons, Steven Cummings, Benjamin King, Johann van Zyl, Amanuel Gebreigzabhier

Groupama – FDJ
Mickaël Delage, Antoine Duchesne, Rudy Molard, Thibaut Pinot, Georg Preidler, Marc Sarreau, Benjamin Thomas, Léo Vincent

Lotto Soudal
Thomas De Gendt, Victor Campenaerts, Tiesj Benoot, Bjorg Lambrecht, Sander Armée, Maxime Monfort, Tosh Van der Sande, Jelle Wallays

LottoNL-Jumbo
Steven Kruijswijk, George Bennett, Danny van Poppel, Lars Boom, Floris De Tier, Tom Leezer, Bert-Jan Lindeman, Sepp Kuss

Mitchelton-Scott
Michael Albasini, Alexander Edmondson, Jack Haig, Damien Howson, Luka Mezgec, Matteo Trentin, Adam Yates, Simon Yates

Movistar Team
Alejandro Valverde, Nairo Quintana, Andrey Amador, Winner Anacona, Daniele Bennati, Richard Carapaz, Imañol Erviti, Nelson Oliveira

Quick-Step Floors
Elia Viviani, Pieter Serry, Fabio Sabatini, Michael Mørkøv, Dries Devenyns, Laurens De Plus, Kasper Asgreen, Enric Mas

Team EF Education First-Drapac p/b Cannondale
Simon Clarke, Mitchell Docker, Sebastian Langeveld, Daniel Moreno, Pierre Rolland, Rigoberto Uran, Tom Van Asbroeck, Michael Woods

Team Katusha – Alpecin
Jhonatan Restrepo, Maurits Lammertink, Ian Boswell, Ilnur Zakarin, José Gonçalves, Reto Hollenstein, Pavel Kochetkov, Tiago Machado

Team Sky
David de la Cruz, Michal Kwiatkowski, Tao Geoghegan Hart, Dylan van Baarle

Team Sunweb
Max Walscheid, Simon Geschke, Jai Hindley, Johannes Fröhlinger, Wilco Kelderman, Michael Storer, Mike Teunissen, Martijn Tusveld

Trek – Segafredo
Gianluca Brambilla, Matthias Brändle, Nicola Conci, Fabio Felline, Markel Irizar, Bauke Mollema, Giacomo Nizzolo, Kiel Reijnen

UAE-Team Emirates
Fabio Aru, Daniel Martin, Valerio Conti, Stake Vegard Laengen, Sven Erik Bystrøm, Simone Consonni, Simone Petilli, Edward Ravasi

Procontinental teams

Burgos-BH
Jetse Bol, José Mendes, Jordi Simón, Jorge Cubero, Jesus Ezquerra, Diego Rubio, Pablo Torres, Óscar Cabedo

Caja Rural – Seguros RGA
Sergio Pardilla, Alex Aranburu, Guillermo Lluís Mas, Nick Schultz, Nelson Andres Soto, Cristian Rodríguez, Jonathan Lastra, Antonio Molina

Cofidis, Solutions Crédits
Nacer Bouhanni, Loïc Chetout, Jesús Herrada, José Herrada, Mathias Le Turnier, Luis Ángel Maté, Stephane Rossetto, Kenneth Vanbilsen

Euskadi – Murias
Jon Aberasturi, Aritz Bagües, Mikel Bizkarra, Garikoitz Bravo, Mikel Iturria, Eduard Prades, Oscar Rodriguez, Héctor Saez

 

[RobinLFC]

Sky is going with four riders?

 

[Ainu]

Sky is going with four riders?

That list seems incomplete, Castroviejo, Sergio Henao, Puccio and Sivakov should join them. They're going with de la Cruz as leader. I would've thought Henao should be able to ride a good GC as well.

I can't really point out an obvious favourite to win the entire thing. Nibali is just recovering from his injury and will use this Vuelta as preparation for the world championship. Porte returning from injury as well, Aru a bit of a question mark, same goes for Pinot. Quintana? After that weird Tour, I'm not sure what to think of him. Perhaps Simon Yates or M.A. Lopez?

 

[RedFish]

Sky is going with four riders?

They only need 4 riders

 

[RedFish]

Kwiato probably a little overcooked coming into this Vuelta, but I wouldn't put it past the little man to do something exceptional.

 

[RedFish]

Jonathan Castroviejo
David de la Cruz
Sergio Henao
Tao Geoghegan Hart
Michal Kwiatkowski
Salvatore Puccio
Pavel Sivakov
Dylan van Baarle

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Can anyone help me find schedule for today's Vuelta's ITT? I mean, start times of all cyclists.

I can't find it on official site. Can easily find a lot of useless stuff I'm not interested in though.

 

[RedFish]

Did you find the start times @Mrs Smoker ?

Just caught up with the prologue. No surprises with Dennis getting the red jersey for BMC. Super ride by Kwiato 6 sec down.

 

[RedFish]

http://www.ciclismointernacional.com/vuelta-a-espana-stage-2-preview/

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Did you find the start times @Mrs Smoker ?

Just caught up with the prologue. No surprises with Dennis getting the red jersey for BMC. Super ride by Kwiato 6 sec down.

I have eventually. Via cyclingnews forum, where there was a link for cyclingnews page with start times, which I couldn't find on actual cyclingnews site when I browsed it before.

Modern web pages suck.

 

[RedFish]

Kwiatkowski in the Maillot Rojo.

 

[vangagal]

Tomorrow stage 4 is the first step into mountanious Vuelta. Big stage ahead and i expected some good riding.

 

[RedFish]

Tomorrow stage 4 is the first step into mountanious Vuelta. Big stage ahead and i expected some good riding.

Eat your heart out TDF! Welcome to the Vuelta!

 

[vangagal]

Eat your heart out TDF! Welcome to the Vuelta!

Big test for Kwiatowski. I cheer for him this time.

 

[RedFish]

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GC after stage 4

 

[RedFish]

Kwiato in the break, 3 mins ahead, 5 mins behind in GC. I can dream......

 

[vangagal]

So, after ITT stage 16 of Vuelta a Espana Simon Yates has clear gap of '33 ahead of Valverde with Kruijswijk at 3rd by '55.
Once again, Quintana fell of short. His reluctant to attack at stage 15 really put him in damper now. I dont think he is still the same Quintana we had seen years before.

 

[Ainu]

Quintana has become an overly cautious and reluctant rider in recent years. Very, very boring and never really taking any initiative, which doesn't make any sense at all considering his relative weakness in time trials. He should be trying to take advantage of mountain stages to compensate for it yet he rarely even tries. I don't see him winning another grand tour.

 

[vangagal]

Quintana has become an overly cautious and reluctant rider in recent years. Very, very boring and never really taking any initiative, which doesn't make any sense at all considering his relative weakness in time trials. He should be trying to take advantage of mountain stages to compensate for it yet he rarely even tries. I don't see him winning another grand tour.

Valverde seems has more willingness than him now. He's 38 ffs. Movistar really wasted their years with Quintana now

 

[Gio]

Quintana has become an overly cautious and reluctant rider in recent years. Very, very boring and never really taking any initiative, which doesn't make any sense at all considering his relative weakness in time trials. He should be trying to take advantage of mountain stages to compensate for it yet he rarely even tries. I don't see him winning another grand tour.

Have seen him try to attack plenty of times in recent grand tours - he just hasn't had the legs any more to make a break in the way he used to. Probably affected his confidence too.