Prophet Muhammad cartoon sparks Batley Grammar School protest

[Barnslig]

But the cartoon is a meme which incites a stereotype that does in fact harm people. What you're failing to understand is that free speech is only free until it incites physical harm on others.

In your previous post, you mentioned an "ongoing theme with Muslims". That kind of base reasoning is proof of how easy it is for bigots to fall for the rhetoric illustrated in the cartoon. Once a prejudice is created, you shouldn't encourage its propogation.

If you don't believe that all Muslims are terrorists, why support a cartoon which conveys that same message? Especially when there are so many cases of verbal and physical abuse in the UK incited by this exact prejudice.

So you're saying the themes I mentioned in a follow up post is not relevant? War, terror, humanitarian crisis, ISIS? I don't believe all Muslims are terrorists, and if any of you are willing to show me the cartoon displayed by the teacher, I'd be happy to see it, I just don't see how a caricature of a (very real, military man) person is the same as saying "all muslim are terrorists"? Again, growing up in Norway as a ethnic Norwegian, I have for most of my life been a minority in classrooms. I have been racially and physically abused by Muslims for years, with the threat of being labelled "racist" if you ever retaliate.

The fact you think people should not be offended doesn't tell me you enjoy any of this. It's a very odd and bitter stance. To actively not want people to get offended and seeing it as a negative of society vs how "it used to be".

And yes it does give me certain rights or protections. In your world, how it "used to be", it was commonplace to make fun of Jews as being miser at work, flirt with women if they dressed 'provocatively', bully employees for being overweight or short and make fun of homosexuals. People spoke up and you can't get away with any of that now. So yes, you do get protection.

Again, misquoting me. When did I say no one should be offended? I explicitly said you can be as offended as you want, at anything, however that doesn't give you any special rights or the ability to demand that I limit my freedoms cause of it.

There's nothing wrong with multiculturalism. The problem is turning one culture against another with petty backbiting and bigotry. Something you're doing in this thread.

There is a feckload wrong with multiculturalism, the fact that you say there is nothing wrong with it makes me believe you've lived a very sheltered life removed from the daily challenges of many.

You just told me you grew up in Norway and talked about "how it used to be". Norway is hardly the most multicultural society out there, especially back in the day. Seems to me like you're just annoyed at different ethnicities mingling.

I guess that is what you just said. Mutli cultural society is not very positive for you. Why am I wrong in calling you xenophobic then?

I'll have you know I've been a minority in most of my classrooms growing up. Did you just try and tell me what my lived experiences are? Do you mind me asking where you are from? Norway is in fact a very multicultural, socialist country that has had mass immigration since the Kosovo/Albania wars back in the 90s (Possibly even further back, to post WWII, but I have limited knowledge of this so I will not make a claim). Norwegians in Norway is projected to be a minority in a few decades.

 

[Carolina Red]

You worded it very well and I'm gonna use this so @Carolina Red sees it as well since he compared it to depictions in historical "Persian art"

Blasphemy is blasphemy isn’t it?

Or are you going to be an arbiter on what images are okay and not okay now?

 

[reelworld]

I guess the good thing about thread like this is you can easily spot who the racists are

 

[shamans]

Blasphemy is blasphemy isn’t it?

Or are you going to be an arbiter on what images are okay and not okay now?

I am not? I was not protesting. I think in a free kind society it makes sense to listen to what offends someone and what doesn't and try and be inclusive. It's not that difficult?

Not even sure what your line of thinking is here. Because muslims are not offended at historical cartoons they should also not be offended are cartoons that portray them in the most negative light ever?

 

[Carolina Red]

I am not? I was not protesting. I think in a free kind society it makes sense to listen to what offends someone and what doesn't and try and be inclusive. It's not that difficult?

Not even sure what your line of thinking is here. Because muslims are not offended at historical cartoons they should also not be offended are cartoons that portray them in the most negative light ever?

I’m pointing out the fact that the “rules” about depicting Muhammad changed. Which, for historical purposes, is something interesting to examine.

Also, there isn’t a consensus about if those Persian works are okay or not. Which, again, is an interesting thing to study.

 

[shamans]

I’m pointing out the fact that the “rules” about depicting Muhammad changed. Which, for historical purposes, is something interesting to examine.

Also, there isn’t a consensus about if those Persian works are okay or not. Which, again, is an interesting thing to study.

Anyone who shows these cartoons in settings that cause controversy have no confusion about the rules whatsoever. I think consensus is formed on caricatures portraying stereotypes vs Persian art which was mentioned in the message earlier.

But if you're set on ignoring every bit of context and respect for others there is no changing that.

 

[The Boy]

The difference is the Jewish students would most likely just tell you they don't eat pork and move on with their day, while these people are violently going after a teacher for displaying a fecking cartoon. If seing a cartoon of anything messes up your day/life to this level, there are larger issues at play.

Surely you can see the difference here?

Strange post, the first part is a complete presumption, I should imagine that if Jewish students were told by their teacher to eat pork during class, there would certainly be a backlash and not just from the Jewish community.

The second sentence is just as weird it's not seeing a cartoon of anything, it's seeing a cartoon of the Prophet dressed in suicide vest. And people didn't go after the teacher violently, they protested outside the school, this is hardly a Samuel Paty situation.

Just because you can not see why something is upsetting or insulting, it doesn't mean it isn't.

 

[The Corinthian]

I'm just gonna throw this out here, maybe we're starting to have bigoted tendencies because we've lived in this so-called "positive multi cultural society" all our lives, and it's really not very positive at all.

So...we were less bigoted when people were overtly racist and bigoted?

Make it make sense.

 

[groovyalbert]

Free speech debates around this are ridiculous as this was in a school setting.

If this was taking place in the public space, then fine. But as a teacher you can't just go around saying whatever you feel like and then claim your right to free speech in order to justify your actions. As with any job, you have to act professionally and that often means biting your lip/finding tactful ways to articulate certain topics.

Not getting into the "should he/shouldn't he have" debate, but justifying on the grounds of free speech is nonsense. That's not the issue here, as it was with CH.

 

[Synco]

Free speech debates around this are ridiculous as this was in a school setting.

If this was taking place in the public space, then fine. But as a teacher you can't just go around saying whatever you feel like and then claim your right to free speech in order to justify your actions. As with any job, you have to act professionally and that often means biting your lip/finding tactful ways to articulate certain topics.

Not getting into the "should he/shouldn't he have" debate, but justifying on the grounds of free speech is nonsense. That's not the issue here, as it was with CH.

Absolutely. It probably goes for most professional settings, but I find it especially obvious when it comes to teaching kids in a public school.

(Edit - as I just learned about the confusing terms of the UK school system: "public" as in state school.)

 

[Carolina Red]

Anyone who shows these cartoons in settings that cause controversy have no confusion about the rules whatsoever. I think consensus is formed on caricatures portraying stereotypes vs Persian art which was mentioned in the message earlier.

But if you're set on ignoring every bit of context and respect for others there is no changing that.

What you think doesn’t really matter though when there’s folks saying that all depictions of Muhammad are blasphemous... so, in that context...

 

[The Corinthian]

What you think doesn’t really matter though when there’s folks saying that all depictions of Muhammad are blasphemous... so, in that context...

Are people protesting Persian Art from 600-700 years ago?

Or are they protesting antagonistic CH cartoons which reinforce Islamophobic and racist tropes?

 

[Spoony]

[/QUOTE]

What you think doesn’t really matter though when there’s folks saying that all depictions of Muhammad are blasphemous... so, in that context...

For some reason it was more common in Shia Islam a few centuries ago.

 

[Smores]

I'm just gonna throw this out here, maybe we're starting to have bigoted tendencies because we've lived in this so-called "positive multi cultural society" all our lives, and it's really not very positive at all.

Wow

Threads starting to reach it's natural conclusion i see.

 

[Spoony]

This place wasn't polluted by right wing nutjobs a few years back. Not surprised though.

 

[shamans]

What you think doesn’t really matter though when there’s folks saying that all depictions of Muhammad are blasphemous... so, in that context...

What sort of what about-ism is this. I personally have not seen persian artistic depictions getting the same response as that of obvious stereotype/disrespect.

Persian art has no controversy of that sort associated to it. To you point it actually is educational and has historic value. This does not. If you can teach a class without navigating such a sensitive issue that frankly is not needed in a classroom you are the problem.

 

[shamans]

For some reason it was more common in Shia Islam a few centuries ago.
[/QUOTE]

Btw in Shia Islam you do not disrespect the name Ali. I know of an incident where shias got annoyed at a kids teaching material -- some basic reading books -- that had sentences like "Ali was naughty and stole from the market".

They, the sunni staff, changed the name Ali to something sense. Point is you do navigate around obvous sensitive issues when you can especially for kids. Had it been a certain teacher on this thread keeping the name "ali" would have been essential .

 

[2cents]

there can be no denying there's an ongoing theme here with Muslims

The theme at the moment? ISIS, War, Humanitarian Crisis, Terror, Violence.

If there is any group of people currently impinging on other group of people's freedoms, it's islam.

These posts imply that Muslims as a collective are acting in unison in nefarious ways. I see you have subsequently qualified them with the “I don’t believe all Muslims are terrorists” comment, but going forward you should really re-think how you approach this subject on here.

 

[DoomSlayer]

I think criticism of Islam and its' prominent leaders is getting misinterpreted with criticising individual Muslims.

Personally, I have issues about the Catholic Church, the Pope and its' administration, same goes for Orthodox Christianity and the Patriarchs. Their use of religion for political matters has been ongoing since their birth. So I share the same concerns about Islam and how the leaders can take advantage of their influence on politics by using the religion as a tool.

I have no problem with spirituality, beliefs, upholding traditions and cherishing your history. That's why I have no problem with people protesting about whatever the feck they feel like, it's a basic human right. I have a problem on the stigma of not discussing the problems that religion brings to societies and the reason why countries started becoming secular in the modern era.

 

[Carolina Red]

Had it been a certain teacher on this thread keeping the name "ali" would have been essential .

Nice attempt at a straw man there.

 

[Carolina Red]

What sort of what about-ism is this. I personally have not seen persian artistic depictions getting the same response as that of obvious stereotype/disrespect.

Persian art has no controversy of that sort associated to it. To you point it actually is educational and has historic value.

I’d be very interested to see your argument then if the Persian depictions get pulled up for being shown.

 

[calodo2003]

For some reason it was more common in Shia Islam a few centuries ago.

Btw in Shia Islam you do not disrespect the name Ali. I know of an incident where shias got annoyed at a kids teaching material -- some basic reading books -- that had sentences like "Ali was naughty and stole from the market".

They, the sunni staff, changed the name Ali to something sense. Point is you do navigate around obvous sensitive issues when you can especially for kids. Had it been a certain teacher on this thread keeping the name "ali" would have been essential .

Not seeing your point again. Who cares what differences there are inside a religion? Such differences don’t mean non-believers need to change the name ‘Ali’ to something else.

Are you a Muslim? A few here have said they are, I just cannot remember if you were one of them.

You sure do like spinning fantastical yarns out of whole cloth, don’t you? Not the intra-religious relations machination story because I couldn’t give a feck about that, but your tales of @Carolina Red & how his lessons would ‘obviously’ go.

 

[Carolina Red]

For some reason it was more common in Shia Islam a few centuries ago.

Indeed. The rules seem to have changed with the popularity of mass printed media.

 

[Synco]

Depends on what cultures are involved.

So which cultures make it wrong?

 

[Spoony]

Indeed. The rules seem to have changed with the popularity of mass printed media.

The rules have always been the same for Sunnis, as I said Shia Muslims were more relaxed. I think they still are.

 

[rotherham_red]

I’d be very interested to see your argument then if the Persian depictions get pulled up for being shown.

I mean you don't have to look far. Wikipedia used to have those Persian pictures of Muhammad on its profile of the Prophet. It didn't cause a global boycott of Wikipedia, outside of a very tiny minority, and it was eventually edited out years after the fact and wholly under the radar.

I really think you're trying to find something in Muslims that just isn't there. Pictures of the Prophet are a big no no, and a non-conversation from the get go, but that hasn't stopped certain cultures doing as such in the ensuing generations. No one but the most extreme minority of Sunnis call Shias heretics or infidels, and the issue with the Hebdo and Danish cartoons was the reductive and disgusting stereotyping of Muslims they portrayed.

You said that rules on depicting Muhammad changed and that it is only recently the case that it wasn't seen as acceptable and that they should be shown in a class setting as a means to educate. By that logic, caricatures of Jews were seen as being acceptable as late as the turn of the 20th century, will you be sharing those caricatures in your class as well?

 

[shamans]

Indeed. The rules seem to have changed with the popularity of mass printed media.

At no point in history would a cartoon like this not be deemed as disrespectful. Also, that's besides the point. The rules have also "changed" with what you can say at the workplace in 1950 vs what you can say in 2021.

 

[shamans]

Nice attempt at a straw man there.

No straw man for me. Maybe you need some self reflection if your response to a whole ethnicity getting offended is "they must learn to navigate such discussions. Not my problem". Because it's very important to display offensive caricatures in high school class room.

"Every student here matters. Except, well, some students. They should know better!"

 

[shamans]

Not seeing your point again. Who cares what differences there are inside a religion? Such differences don’t mean non-believers need to change the name ‘Ali’ to something else.

And yet they did which was the point that went totally over your head. It's the idea of not offending a segment of the classroom to encourage, foster and develop an inclusive group of students where everyone feels welcomed.

Likewise, I am sure any qualified teacher has absolutely no problem getting their point across without having to offend. If they do, the motives are different.

 

[rotherham_red]

And yet they did which was the point that went totally over your head. It's the idea of not offending a segment of the classroom to encourage, foster and develop an inclusive group of students where everyone feels welcomed.

Likewise, I am sure any qualified teacher has absolutely no problem getting their point across without having to offend. If they do, the motives are different.

That's the massive red flag for me in this whole sorry episode.

If someone can't be courteous and sensitive enough to fecking children during this whole sorry mess, then how can you rely on him to be professional, full stop?

And that's before we even consider what happened to the previous (and I'll be kind and refer him to his profession rather than what he really was) teacher who showed the cartoons in a classroom setting.

 

[calodo2003]

And yet they did which was the point that went totally over your head. It's the idea of not offending a segment of the classroom to encourage, foster and develop an inclusive group of students where everyone feels welcomed.

Likewise, I am sure any qualified teacher has absolutely no problem getting their point across without having to offend. If they do, the motives are different.

Teaching history will always elicit uncomfortability, even offense. It’s a fool’s errand to try to placate all parties involved to try to keep everyone from being offended, even if those offended are of a certain religion due to a part of their religion.

Makes total sense why you think all those who are taught should be free of uncomfortability or offense.

You just can’t stop with the absolutist, narcissistic rhetoric, can you?

 

[DoomSlayer]

That's the massive red flag for me in this whole sorry episode.

If someone can't be courteous and sensitive enough to fecking children during this whole sorry mess, then how can you rely on him to be professional, full stop?

And that's before we even consider what happened to the previous (and I'll be kind and refer him to his profession rather than what he really was) teacher who showed the cartoons in a classroom setting.

How do you know if the behaviour of the teacher was appropriate or not? And what the feck does your last sentence mean?

I hope it's not what it looks like.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

People have the right to be offended.

Others have the right to offend.

 

[calodo2003]

That's the massive red flag for me in this whole sorry episode.

If someone can't be courteous and sensitive enough to fecking children during this whole sorry mess, then how can you rely on him to be professional, full stop?

And that's before we even consider what happened to the previous (and I'll be kind and refer him to his profession rather than what he really was) teacher who showed the cartoons in a classroom setting.

What might he ‘really’ have been?

 

[Carolina Red]

By that logic, caricatures of Jews were seen as being acceptable as late as the turn of the 20th century, will you be sharing those caricatures in your class as well?

Every time I teach a course on the Holocaust. It’s pretty integral to the study of dehumanization.

 

[Carolina Red]

No straw man for me. Maybe you need some self reflection if your response to a whole ethnicity getting offended is "they must learn to navigate such discussions. Not my problem". Because it's very important to display offensive caricatures in high school class room.

"Every student here matters. Except, well, some students. They should know better!"

1) Islam isn’t an ethnic group

2) Showing an example of blasphemy does not automatically equal some nefarious motive

3) You’re still trying to straw man

 

[VorZakone]

Every time I teach a course on the Holocaust. It’s pretty integral to the study of dehumanization.

Watch out, Germans might get offended and don't want to be shown Holocaust material.

 

[calodo2003]

No straw man for me. Maybe you need some self reflection if your response to a whole ethnicity getting offended is "they must learn to navigate such discussions. Not my problem". Because it's very important to display offensive caricatures in high school class room.

"Every student here matters. Except, well, some students. They should know better!"

More absolutist rhetoric.

There are literally Muslims in this thread that have stated they couldn’t give a shit about the cartoons.

Why must you continue with such untruths?

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Wether you agree or disagree with the cartoon. The teacher surely would’ve known the utter shit storm this would cause. He should be suspended for his stupidity alone.

 

[calodo2003]

Wether you agree or disagree with the cartoon. The teacher surely would’ve known the utter shit storm this would cause. He should be suspended for his stupidity alone.

These cartoons have been taught multiple times over the years throughout the world with no reactions akin to ‘utter shit storms.’ There might have been offense or uncomfortability, but these extreme reactions seem rare, not the norm. And offense or uncomfortability isn’t enough to temper curriculum inside relevant courses.