Didn't he win the Ballon d'Or doing the CM role for England in 66 and so?
Raees VS EAP - All-time 3 year peak - Auction draft
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Why is Sammer not good in that role?
He has Didi and Meazza operating at left middle and I have Djalma there with support from Burgnich...as defensive as it could possibly get. As Balu mentioned before, the peak Puskas he has chosen is not the pure CF version either. I don't see him having a edge in scoring!
He wasn't at his attacking best in that tournament (having to man mark Beckenbauer and what not), once you compare that with his United performances.
The thing about peak Puskas is that.. if he could play CF pre Kocsis and at Real, what was stopping him from being able to play that role during his peak?
The issue is that libero and sweeper started being used for the same role. A defender in a free role, and the characteristics of the player would decide how they played the role. The idea that sweepers are different from liberos mostly comes from misconceptions and misunderstandings from hearing players being called this or that. In reality there hasn't been many defensive sweepers like Joga says, almost everybody who are named as sweepers/liberos are liberos.
I remember a draft where Scirea was misunderstood to be a defensive sweeper who primarily operated behind the defense and was known for his life saving heroics as a last man in the defense. Reality was more the opposite, he was a fantastic player on the ball and he contributed to the midfield and was often labeled "a deep playmaker".
Nah man, you stay in the Schuster wagon now, you can't just jump in now.
Just messing, yeah I know you rate him but you never leave a slight chance to insult him, just like now.
I am happy to see he is getting credit as a part of a midfield duo, recently it seemed that you have to play two defensive minded midfielders behind him to get the best of him. As great as he was countering forward at Inter, we are talking of Lothar Matthäus, not Yaya Toure. The fact that he contributed all over the pitch even if playing is a "pivot" made him the legend he is. It's basically not limited to Lothar, spreads across several defensive players who made a telling contribution going forward. They hardly ever needed full fledged support behind them, when to make a move - knowing that is a special, underrated talent.
Come on...Footballer of the year, World Cup All Star team, Ballon d'Or and you think he was not at his best!
You are just talking about the finals where he and Kaizer cancelled each other out. It was a decision by Ramsey that I feel took the best out of Bobby and put him on man marking duties. I would rather take it as how good he can do a defensive job and not a example of how he operated through that world cup.
@Annahnomoss for future draft matches we should change the title i.e. (last hour to vote) type thing just to alert people its close to the death.
We are talking about an incredibly complete attacking midfielder, he's not going to be a problem where you are playing him, don't get me wrong. It is a minor detail, but you are simply not going to get the goal scoring output he's famous for, specially given who he's up against.
I don't know. I'm going by @Annahnomoss criteria that only what he did during those 3 years you have chosen counts. If we are bringing career games into perspective here, I see no point in having peaks listed at all!
I don't see him at best as a left half. Right half, no question...but has he played left half (and left wing defensively) in the peak Raees has chosen?
Well that puts Sir Bobby in his best role but Sammer in a double pivot - not too sure about that. He looked great in that central DM role. But overall I guess yeah, this one's better.
Unless he has to help out his team out wide most of the time for some reason, I don't see why that would be an issue as long as he's gonna work centrally most of the time.
It is to avoid having players merged in to super players. If he could play as a striker and did so, then use Puskas from that time. It is up to the manager to provide proofs that he did and to a sufficient level.
A. You think he could play as a striker in his peak because of the abilities he showed in matches - then show that with gifs and videos.
B. You think he could play as a striker because he did at another time of his career - then show that with gifs, videos and information.
Yeah, I understood that, it is a problem with the likes of Scholes. Remains to be seen how successful turning that into a formal rule was.
I didn't say Sammer wasn't good, I said your other two midfielders will get beaten and Sammer will end up with a choice of two or three midfield runners to pick up. Whoever he does pick up he will deal with, whoever he doesn't will be overloading an already overstretched defence.
Also, @Raees responded to Balu straight away saying it was a fair point and that Real's Puskas was on the pitch.
You have Djalma on Meazza and Forster on Kopa with Burgnich helping out whichever flank the ball is played at. Then there is also Sammer to ensure no one drops back to create space. I don't see a 'stretched' defence when as you mentioned both Burgnich and Djalma can play squeezed centrally. Yes, Cafu is a better player and will have an edge, but I certainly don't see Lizarazu getting 'destroyed' here.
Edit: Don't want to be inane here, but Annah mentioned change of peak will be a sub and I don't recall a sub happening. Could be wrong..checking now again.
In fairness, Puskas playing centreforward at peak is less odd than Burgnich playing sweeper occasionally and still being peak Burgnich.
@Edgar Allan Pillow In fact I wouldn't rate Lothar in a role where he has to mind the flanks as much as take care of midfield (for example covering for an attacking RB in a 4-4-2 diamond), and those are the times we bother ourselves with which side a "C"M should be placed. For example if Raees didn't have Andrade, even if he had played Lothar on the right which according to you is much better than right now, for me that wouldn't work as well as right now because Lothar is not someone you want to cover the flanks. Here, he has no such duties, so should be okay.
Congratulations @Edgar Allan Pillow .. another close run thing. Best of luck with your next game, considering you came in last minute to fill in - impressive performance!
Yes, however much I love Schuster at peak, you needed more defensive nous in that midfield, particularly helping protect that left flank.So would this have been any better as my starting formation?
Not that it seems to have mattered.
Felt like I was playing catch up ever since I mistakenly signed Andrade on the notion he was a DM - completely messed up my game plan going forward, will definitely try to research even better next time.
You so are
Thanks mate. We seem to have these nail biters, though I was sure this would descend into penalties too. Though this as less 'fireworks' than our last outing, this was immensely enjoyable. Though I didn't offer much, your profiles were quite interesting to read!
In fairness, your problem wasn't Andrade, it was either Didí or not playing a more classic CF with Puskas at Inside Left. Both IMO.
Didn't want to go full on at the death there, but you do realise you are completely ignoring Ferenc feckin' Puskas there. Kopa-Puskas-Meazza one on one with those three is trouble, add one or two of Matthäus/Didí/Andrade overloading unattended and you are up shit creek.
Again down to flawed research.. having a better grasp of what a players true position is and how they play in correlation to others. Definitely an action point for me to work on by the next draft.
I was fairly critical about how Matthäus was used most of the time, but I don't think anyone ever said you need two defensive minded midfielders behind him. Still, the problem is that most managers used him in his post injury version and claim to get peak Matthäus (the same is more or less happening here as proven by @Raees using a game from 1994 to show the role he wants Matthäus to play).
If you want him to be the deepest midfielder and shielding a defense, then at least admit that you're not playing the peak version of him, which was an attacking box to box midfielder with almost unlimited freedom. Obviously his energy and workrate always contributed massively in defense, but at no point did he play a tactically restricted defensive role during his peak years. He was a direct attacking player, who could carry the ball, dribble and pass. He'd steamroll through almost every midfield he faced and to let him do what he does best, you don't want another box to box midfielder next to him, but a holding midfielder who stays in his position and covers for Matthäus' runs. The fact that Matthäus adapted after his long injuries and was capable of playing a less energetic DM/libero role shouldn't really overshadow what he actually did during his peak years and what won Germany the World Cup, Inter the league against Sacchi's Milan and himself the Ballon d'Or.
Yeah but I prefer this type of game it was more about the actual football on the pitch.. yep one of the best things about an all time draft is I got to pick my favourite players unrestricted for the most part (Didi, Meazza, Schnellinger - a guy who I was always fascinated with and wanted to do him justice) and others whom I was curious about but have never got to use like Matthaus (such a complex player to figure out).
TBF Balu in the vid I posted, Matthaus was way too deep in comparison to the role I wanted from him in this game which was defensive but not a pure DM. I just wanted to find a way of highlighting his tactical awareness and versatility as most of the youtube footage has him as a attack-minded B2Ber.
@Joga Bonito
I would like more information on this as I really don't want to spend a upgrade in defence... unless it's really flawed.
Most Italian forwards of that time, Riva/Prati etc started Inside Left and were the most attacking outlets of their teams. Burgnich though technically a 'right back' operated more as a CB than a RB and his role was purely defensive...defending against Inside Forwards...something he is doing it here with Meazza.
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Yeah, sure, you would want a holding midfielder next to him and you don't want him doing what Sammer was doing here, that's definitely not peak Matthäus. But I don't think it's outlandish to have him next to another box-to-box midfielder. He certainly had the ability to impose himself in both phases of the game.
It's not the ideal setup, but in this game I could see @Raees knocking on EAPs door all game long with little to worry about in terms of holding. Andrade's and Lothar's recovery would be good enough, and Schnellinger-Vasovic-Kohler could keep Jairzinho-Kocsis-Rivelino in check and far from the goal with a high line.
I agree and I did vote for Raees
.Also, Sammer always being played as a DM is equally annoying. He won the Ballon d'Or as a libero in a back five and that's his best position. No one thinks about playing Scirea in DM for example. Yeah, in theory he could do the job and all that and he could drop between the centerbacks. In reality Sammer never reached the same heights when played in midfield though. There are many unpicked DMs I'd prefer over Sammer. If you don't want to use him in his best role, don't pick him. It's so weird.
@Edgar Allan Pillow I think it is more the "sweeper" role myself - doesn't suit him - but that's just me.
From what I read, though Meazza was versatile, his 'peak' was at right flank. 1934 and 38 world cups featured him at right and I would argue that he spent more time as CF/Right IF than at Left. Rivellino is equal if not better at left.
Again I rate Jairzinho as a better right winger than Kopa. The guy who stepped into Garrincha's shoes and still made a name for his own. Kopa though he played outside right with success is best utilized as right AM with full freedom to roam...not providing width full time.
As a pure CF, again Kocsis is arguably better. Puskas is a better overall player but here with Meazza and Kopa drifting centre, Kocsis will have a better chance to score than him.
Precisely, I guess I was wrong, or maybe it was a while back but I do remember some discussion where someone said to have him at his "best" he should be the most advanced CM in a three, which seemed bizarre.
@Edgar Allan Pillow all this Burgnich stuff could have been avoided had you not called him a sweeper in your write up.
I do like him as the most advanced CM in a three, but it's not because he needs so much protection, but because the peak version of him clashes massively with a real number 10 in front of him and that's what's happening most of the time. Play a 2nd striker in a 4231/442ish formation with Matthäus as the more attacking part of the midfield 2 and I love it. Matthäus was an incredibly dominant player in possession and didn't really allow a 2nd creative central player to flourish next to him.
I see, your gripe is more with someone occupying the area for him to run into rather than him needing two players behind him. Makes more sense, tbh.
I agree with you 100% here, he's still bloody capable enough to provide that drive in a midfield duo as long as that area isn't being crowded.
Yeah. I know. It was more of semantics than actual gameplay. Interesting what started this was the example @Pat_Mustard used. I was researching Blanc for Euro draft and lots of websites called him a sweeper. Transfermarkt also lists him the same. Reading a bit more, I took it that a flat back 4 can still have a sweeper/stopper CB combo. Never expected that word to cause so much trouble. Well, something learnt!@Edgar Allan Pillow all this Burgnich stuff could have been avoided had you not called him a sweeper in your write up.