Ye, anyone want to learn just give us a shout.
Raees VS EAP - All-time 3 year peak - Auction draft
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
The Ethiopian Prince... DIDI
To find out what made him feel this way is to understand his past. Didi grew up poor, playing ball with other poor kids on the brown and beaten earth of Campos outside of Rio. There are no rules for playing a pick-up game in a slum; if you’re not the one doing the kicking, you’re the one getting kicked, or elbowed, or knocked down off the ball. Didi, when he was 14, took a kick to right knee during one of these pick-up games in Campos. It happens. If you don’t come away from a pick-up game with a few bruises or cuts, then you were not playing.
But this cut became corrupted, and the infection in his knee became so bad that doctors were seriously contemplating amputating the leg that would help take Brazil to consecutive World Cup titles when the boy was only 14. He kept the leg, and spent six months bound to a wheelchair recovering from the injury. It is only a few short years from now that he’ll sign for Fluminense, one of the giants of Brazilian football. That is the kind of man Didi was, and why he hated the idea of physicality reigning supreme in the sport he loved; it was aggressive play that almost cost him his leg, his way out of Campos, his way out of poverty, and he would never forget that. For Didi, the triumph of brain over brawn was not just an ideological view of how the game should be played, it was the embodiment of what he personally had worked so hard to overcome.
An injury as severe as that never goes away. Not truly. The pain in his leg would be so severe when he tried to shoot from distance that he had to develop an entirely new way of shooting the ball while he was at Fluminense. He would use the laces of his boot and shoot the ball in such a way that it would swerve and dip away from the goalkeeper at the last second, leading to his style of free-kick to be known as fohla seca, or ‘dry leaf’ for the way the ball fluttered in the air, bewitching goalkeepers (Click on this to watch Didi’s free kick). You can see Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale trying the same thing today.
Didi wearing the number 9 at Fluminense.
Didi would spend seven years at Fluminense before joining fellow future Brazilian legends Garrincha and Nilton Santos at Botafogo in 1957. Didi felt more at home at Botafogo with the other black players, as he felt Fluminese’s middle-class fan-base and players created a racial divide within the team. In contrast, Botafogo had a wonderful team spirit that allowed them to beat Fluminese in the Campeonato carioca (Rio league championship) in Didi’s first season by a score of 6-2. The triumph set the stage for the 1958 World Cup in Sweden, where Brazil would take the tournament by storm, unveiling their revolutionary 4-2-4 of which Didi was the lynch-pin.
Didi hadn’t always been a midfielder. He was a wonderful dribbler with a keen eye for a pass which made him a natural fit as an inside forward in his early career, but it was clear his talents were more wide-ranging than that. He was a highly-intelligent player who understood how to break up the opponent’s attack by anticipating their attacking moves and then using his exceptionally wide range of passing, something not very common in those days, to spring counter-attacks. He would move back to be part of a two-man midfield with Zito, a robust tackler who complimented Didi perfectly.
Brazil went into the 1958 World Cup as one of the tournament favorites, and backed up the high expectations by disowning France in the semi-final by a score of 5-2 to set up a showdown with the host nation, Sweden.
It was the fourth minute when the back of Brazil’s net rippled from a Nils Liedholm shot to give Sweden a 1-0 lead. Amid the delirious celebrations in the crowd and the shocked state of his teammates, Didi slowly walked into goal, put the ball under his arm, and calmly walked it back to the center-circle, as if nothing was amiss. The left-winger, Mário Zagallo, ran over to Didi in desperation, shouting, “Come on Didi, we’re losing!” In a manner that no one else besides Didi could pull off, he looked at Zagallo and said, “Calm down. We are still a better team than they are. We will turn this game around soon enough.”
Brazil equalized only four minutes later. Then scored four more until Sweden scored a consolation goal in the 80th minute which Pelé would wipe out ten minutes later to give Brazil a 5-2 victory and their first World Cup title. Would the outcome have been the same if Didi wasn’t there to calm his teammates? He was their general, maestro, and father-figure all rolled into one. He directed them where to go and when, who to play the ball too, and how to remain calm in the face of adversity. As long as he had his composure, so too did Brazil. It is no surprise that Nelson Rodrigues, the renowned Brazilian playwright who so eloquently described Brazilian football from that time period, found a perfect muse in Didi. He compared his elegance on the pitch to an “Ethiopian Prince”, a nickname that would stick.
But a better way to describe his style of play was noted by Pelé, who said that for Didi, playing football was “as easy as peeling an orange.” It is not coincidence that I keep referring to Pelé’s admiration of Didi. How better to explain his greatness than through the praise of one of the game’s most transcendent figures?
When Pelé was being interviewed during the 1958 World Cup, still aged 17, he couldn’t hide his affection for the man who had helped bring along his development with the national team.
“I’m nothing compared to Didi,” he said. “I’ll never be anywhere near as good as he is. He’s my idol, the guy I look up to. The very first picture cards I bought were of him.”
It is not easy to look at and listen to the Pelé of today and imagine him ever admitting someone to being better than he is. But even the gods had to bow down to the titans, and that’s exactly what Didi was, and Pelé knew it. Once the final whistle blew on the World Cup in ‘58, it was Didi’s shoulder Pele cried on.
His affection was not shared by all, however. After “Mr. Football”, a nickname the European press gave him, was voted the best player of the tournament, Real Madrid, unsurprisingly, signed him from Botafogo. The problem was that Madrid already had a leadership figure in Alfredo Di Stefano, who was more like a despot. Everyone at Madrid, even the magnificent Ferenc Puskas, had to subjugate themselves to Di Stefano’s rule. Apparently viewing Didi as a threat to the dictatorship he had established, there is a story that when Didi was being presented to the media Di Stefano was forced to shake his hand and then whispered, “They say you’ve come to replace me. Well, you’re too old and not good enough,” Di Stefano froze Didi out of the team, practically refusing to even pass him the ball when he got the chance to play. Didi returned to Botafogo after one season, where he won back-to-back Campeonato carioca titles in the lead-up to the 1962 World Cup.
Didi was one of the senior members of the squad by then but that didn’t stop him from being an influential force in Brazil’s defense of their title. His only regret, he would later say, was that Di Stefano was injured for the Brazil vs. Spain group stage match, for he “utterly desired to show them the kind of player I was.”
Pele and Didi, after the 1962 World Cup final.
In this instance, we can see Didi for what he was, which was an utter contradiction. He carried himself with an aura of aristocracy and elegance, but what he was, was a fighter. He never backed down from a challenge, and never accepted failure. He may have been an Ethiopian Prince in appearance, but inside he was still the poor kid from Campos, and that is what drove him to be the best. After he nearly lost his leg as a teenager, Didi slept with a football under his bed every night, even as an adult. It’s as if he needed to be able to reach down and feel the leather just to know his love was never far away, and would never leave him like it almost did all those years ago in Campos. He talked of treating the ball with “as much affection as my wife,” and the ball undoubtedly felt the same affection for him.
DIDI - 1958 WORLD CUP FINAL PERFORMANCE
To find out what made him feel this way is to understand his past. Didi grew up poor, playing ball with other poor kids on the brown and beaten earth of Campos outside of Rio. There are no rules for playing a pick-up game in a slum; if you’re not the one doing the kicking, you’re the one getting kicked, or elbowed, or knocked down off the ball. Didi, when he was 14, took a kick to right knee during one of these pick-up games in Campos. It happens. If you don’t come away from a pick-up game with a few bruises or cuts, then you were not playing.
But this cut became corrupted, and the infection in his knee became so bad that doctors were seriously contemplating amputating the leg that would help take Brazil to consecutive World Cup titles when the boy was only 14. He kept the leg, and spent six months bound to a wheelchair recovering from the injury. It is only a few short years from now that he’ll sign for Fluminense, one of the giants of Brazilian football. That is the kind of man Didi was, and why he hated the idea of physicality reigning supreme in the sport he loved; it was aggressive play that almost cost him his leg, his way out of Campos, his way out of poverty, and he would never forget that. For Didi, the triumph of brain over brawn was not just an ideological view of how the game should be played, it was the embodiment of what he personally had worked so hard to overcome.
An injury as severe as that never goes away. Not truly. The pain in his leg would be so severe when he tried to shoot from distance that he had to develop an entirely new way of shooting the ball while he was at Fluminense. He would use the laces of his boot and shoot the ball in such a way that it would swerve and dip away from the goalkeeper at the last second, leading to his style of free-kick to be known as fohla seca, or ‘dry leaf’ for the way the ball fluttered in the air, bewitching goalkeepers (Click on this to watch Didi’s free kick). You can see Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale trying the same thing today.
Didi wearing the number 9 at Fluminense.
Didi would spend seven years at Fluminense before joining fellow future Brazilian legends Garrincha and Nilton Santos at Botafogo in 1957. Didi felt more at home at Botafogo with the other black players, as he felt Fluminese’s middle-class fan-base and players created a racial divide within the team. In contrast, Botafogo had a wonderful team spirit that allowed them to beat Fluminese in the Campeonato carioca (Rio league championship) in Didi’s first season by a score of 6-2. The triumph set the stage for the 1958 World Cup in Sweden, where Brazil would take the tournament by storm, unveiling their revolutionary 4-2-4 of which Didi was the lynch-pin.
Didi hadn’t always been a midfielder. He was a wonderful dribbler with a keen eye for a pass which made him a natural fit as an inside forward in his early career, but it was clear his talents were more wide-ranging than that. He was a highly-intelligent player who understood how to break up the opponent’s attack by anticipating their attacking moves and then using his exceptionally wide range of passing, something not very common in those days, to spring counter-attacks. He would move back to be part of a two-man midfield with Zito, a robust tackler who complimented Didi perfectly.
Brazil went into the 1958 World Cup as one of the tournament favorites, and backed up the high expectations by disowning France in the semi-final by a score of 5-2 to set up a showdown with the host nation, Sweden.
It was the fourth minute when the back of Brazil’s net rippled from a Nils Liedholm shot to give Sweden a 1-0 lead. Amid the delirious celebrations in the crowd and the shocked state of his teammates, Didi slowly walked into goal, put the ball under his arm, and calmly walked it back to the center-circle, as if nothing was amiss. The left-winger, Mário Zagallo, ran over to Didi in desperation, shouting, “Come on Didi, we’re losing!” In a manner that no one else besides Didi could pull off, he looked at Zagallo and said, “Calm down. We are still a better team than they are. We will turn this game around soon enough.”
Brazil equalized only four minutes later. Then scored four more until Sweden scored a consolation goal in the 80th minute which Pelé would wipe out ten minutes later to give Brazil a 5-2 victory and their first World Cup title. Would the outcome have been the same if Didi wasn’t there to calm his teammates? He was their general, maestro, and father-figure all rolled into one. He directed them where to go and when, who to play the ball too, and how to remain calm in the face of adversity. As long as he had his composure, so too did Brazil. It is no surprise that Nelson Rodrigues, the renowned Brazilian playwright who so eloquently described Brazilian football from that time period, found a perfect muse in Didi. He compared his elegance on the pitch to an “Ethiopian Prince”, a nickname that would stick.
But a better way to describe his style of play was noted by Pelé, who said that for Didi, playing football was “as easy as peeling an orange.” It is not coincidence that I keep referring to Pelé’s admiration of Didi. How better to explain his greatness than through the praise of one of the game’s most transcendent figures?
When Pelé was being interviewed during the 1958 World Cup, still aged 17, he couldn’t hide his affection for the man who had helped bring along his development with the national team.
“I’m nothing compared to Didi,” he said. “I’ll never be anywhere near as good as he is. He’s my idol, the guy I look up to. The very first picture cards I bought were of him.”
It is not easy to look at and listen to the Pelé of today and imagine him ever admitting someone to being better than he is. But even the gods had to bow down to the titans, and that’s exactly what Didi was, and Pelé knew it. Once the final whistle blew on the World Cup in ‘58, it was Didi’s shoulder Pele cried on.
His affection was not shared by all, however. After “Mr. Football”, a nickname the European press gave him, was voted the best player of the tournament, Real Madrid, unsurprisingly, signed him from Botafogo. The problem was that Madrid already had a leadership figure in Alfredo Di Stefano, who was more like a despot. Everyone at Madrid, even the magnificent Ferenc Puskas, had to subjugate themselves to Di Stefano’s rule. Apparently viewing Didi as a threat to the dictatorship he had established, there is a story that when Didi was being presented to the media Di Stefano was forced to shake his hand and then whispered, “They say you’ve come to replace me. Well, you’re too old and not good enough,” Di Stefano froze Didi out of the team, practically refusing to even pass him the ball when he got the chance to play. Didi returned to Botafogo after one season, where he won back-to-back Campeonato carioca titles in the lead-up to the 1962 World Cup.
Didi was one of the senior members of the squad by then but that didn’t stop him from being an influential force in Brazil’s defense of their title. His only regret, he would later say, was that Di Stefano was injured for the Brazil vs. Spain group stage match, for he “utterly desired to show them the kind of player I was.”
Pele and Didi, after the 1962 World Cup final.
In this instance, we can see Didi for what he was, which was an utter contradiction. He carried himself with an aura of aristocracy and elegance, but what he was, was a fighter. He never backed down from a challenge, and never accepted failure. He may have been an Ethiopian Prince in appearance, but inside he was still the poor kid from Campos, and that is what drove him to be the best. After he nearly lost his leg as a teenager, Didi slept with a football under his bed every night, even as an adult. It’s as if he needed to be able to reach down and feel the leather just to know his love was never far away, and would never leave him like it almost did all those years ago in Campos. He talked of treating the ball with “as much affection as my wife,” and the ball undoubtedly felt the same affection for him.
DIDI - 1958 WORLD CUP FINAL PERFORMANCE
- Prefers drifting to the left but easily comfortable in central areas
- In contrast to Matthaus' ruggedness, he is more technically gifted and cerebral in approach, complementary styles
- very gifted in tight spaces, suits the uber-technical side I have from back to front
- in terms of the positions he takes up it is very Pogba-esque but more involved in the game
- Brilliant passer, short/long/through balls.. he has it all, his outside of the foot passes are to die for
- great at injecting tempo through the use of repeated one touch passing or going on a slaloming run, proper playmaker.
He was such a brilliant player. Brazil played a 4-2-4 and he was the more attacking central midfielder, with Zito as the defensive one. Can definitely hold his own from a midfield duo if he has a defensively minded player next to him.
Great write up there Raees. Would love to hear more about his three year peak!
Great write up there Raees. Would love to hear more about his three year peak!
That gif in Didi shows clearly where he likes to operate... Same area as Meazza and Puskas.
It's by no means a balanced midfield.
It's by no means a balanced midfield.
Eh? I was doing it years ago!
I've seen him play on the right quite a bit myself. Don't think you can build an entire argument on a single gif.
Yup, same here. The issue remains with Puskas/Meazza/Kopa/Didi all being central playmakers which could be a very negative thing.
Ofc, it's not based on this clip alone, but after watching match clips in YouTube, I'd say it's a fair representation of where he spends a fair part of the match. I've seen him move over to middle but almost always prefers dribbling back to left. And very very few instances of him operating on the right side in a similar position of the clip above. Left middle is his area.
Went EAP because of the lack of balance in Raees' side. Tbh, his names are good enough that the balance almost may not matter. Very close one, and I almost not voted.
The only feedback on my defense is that it's too defensive. Between Djalma and Burgnich and the great man marker Forster, I have a watertight line there.
And that's not counting Sammer. When he drops to pick any of his front 3 who may drop deep to play make.
And him with a sub optimal midfield!
The flaws:
- Puskas having wrong peaks as pointed out before. Not substituted still.
- Didi, Puskas and Meazza all being central playmakers.
- Didi, Puskas and Meazza all preferring to operate left attacking middle overlapping each other.
- Matthaus as left half and even playing left wing defensively! Not his strong point imo and will show in his performance.
And that's not counting Sammer. When he drops to pick any of his front 3 who may drop deep to play make.
And him with a sub optimal midfield!
The flaws:
- Puskas having wrong peaks as pointed out before. Not substituted still.
- Didi, Puskas and Meazza all being central playmakers.
- Didi, Puskas and Meazza all preferring to operate left attacking middle overlapping each other.
- Matthaus as left half and even playing left wing defensively! Not his strong point imo and will show in his performance.
Why are you playing a stopper/sweeper system rather than a flat back four? Did Burgnich actually play as a sweeper during his peak?
It is a flat back 4. In fact a defensive back line with just Lizararu doing his attacking runs. Djalma plays his usual style.
My understanding of this might be hazy, but I'm curious as to why you made the sweeper/stopper distinction in your intro at all if you're playing a conventional flat back four, especially given that Burgnich evidently spent far more of his peak as a stopper than a sweeper. It just seems like its complicating things for you rather than adding anything or clarifying your approach.
That's just because you are watching Brazil World Cup clips and he was the CM on the left so naturally he will be on the left more often than not.
In any case, the relevant point isn't whether he clashes with Meazza or Kopa, the relevant point is just that he wasn't quite what was needed here. I'd rather have a holding midfielder that unleashes Matthäus and Andrade to add their energy and drive to the finesse of those upfront. That's exactly what Sammer is doing for you: "not to worry, the midfielders can have more freedom with Sammer holding the fort".
I still can't see your left flank living with Cafú and Kopa, and when they stretch your defence in that direction, it's a bit of a howler to have two rightbacks completing your defence when they'll likely spend most of the game being required in the centre of defence.
I have absolutely no idea what the thinking was behind that. Surely he has two stoppers and Sammer is the sweeper?
The question is, in such a finely balanced game, can you afford to have your defenders getting erratic directions?
Yeah, that's a very powerful side blessed with incredible technique and physique. Andrade and Cafú in particular are two physical beasts, can't see many sides coming to terms with them in terms of athleticism.
I'm still open to persuasion about it as I'm far from an expert on these defensive nuances, but it is confusing and it could be a difference-maker for me. I'm narrowly favouring Edgar in terms of players, but Raees has won me around quite a bit by fielding the onslaught of questions well (although I'm still not sold on that midfield). The ball is in EAP's court now!
For all the talk of Raees' midfield not being optimum, which it isn't, Charlton has again showed up in a deep midfield role something with which I've always had a gripe with. Same thing, he's a final third player for me, and should be played there to get the best out of him. In midfield you'd still get great midfield play, and a great player who can cut open a defense or score the odd screamer but for me he has to be in a centerforward/support striker-ish role for him to be at his best. I mean, he's the record goal scorer for England and Manchester United, you want goals from him and you won't get it with him fully engaged in the midfield battle the whole time. In short - Charlton in a 4-3-3 for me is compromising on his biggest asset. Minor detail in the bigger picture but that's what this draft is going to be about, rarely you would see mismatches on the pitch in terms of quality.
Over here, in addition to the above, we have Charlton on the side from which lightning quick transitions involving Cafú and Andrade are going to happen, which puts even more burden on him and diminishes his goal threat. For me you need to play him as a n10, not deeper than that. I've lost count of the times I've seen him right inside the box, where a traditional 9 should be there, getting at the end of a cross, and few times out of those did he complete the whole game in midfield, and rather stayed in and around the box most of the time.
Over here, in addition to the above, we have Charlton on the side from which lightning quick transitions involving Cafú and Andrade are going to happen, which puts even more burden on him and diminishes his goal threat. For me you need to play him as a n10, not deeper than that. I've lost count of the times I've seen him right inside the box, where a traditional 9 should be there, getting at the end of a cross, and few times out of those did he complete the whole game in midfield, and rather stayed in and around the box most of the time.
Can DIDI, MATTHAUS and ANDRADE work in the same midfield...
Right so I have already gone into detail on the type of player Didi is, he is basically a nuclear powered Pogba of sorts, a playmaking CM who can operate in a two man midfield, decent defensive skills but clearly more attack minded than defensive - basically he definitely needs defensive protection especially in a game of this magnitude. Thus it begs the question what do Matthaus and Andrade bring to the table in this regard...
Lothar Matthaus (Can he play as a LCDM?)
above is an example of an extremely restrained performance by Matthaus as a sweeper for Germany before his decline, it highlights his brilliant tactical mind.. his versatility, his discipline. Definitely a guy who can hold the fort together and allow Didi to do his thing higher up the pitch but also bomb on if Didi decides to drift deeper for a specific pattern of play.
Andrade (amazing athleticism and defensive recovery)
Rest aassured that any attacks coming down that left side with Kohler, Cafu and Andrade will be snuffed out no matter who they are up against and no offence EAP but Rivelino/Charlton don't have the athleticism to pose quality defensive players like these three serious problems. . Nor does Lizarazu tip this in your favour.
Right so I have already gone into detail on the type of player Didi is, he is basically a nuclear powered Pogba of sorts, a playmaking CM who can operate in a two man midfield, decent defensive skills but clearly more attack minded than defensive - basically he definitely needs defensive protection especially in a game of this magnitude. Thus it begs the question what do Matthaus and Andrade bring to the table in this regard...
Lothar Matthaus (Can he play as a LCDM?)
above is an example of an extremely restrained performance by Matthaus as a sweeper for Germany before his decline, it highlights his brilliant tactical mind.. his versatility, his discipline. Definitely a guy who can hold the fort together and allow Didi to do his thing higher up the pitch but also bomb on if Didi decides to drift deeper for a specific pattern of play.
Andrade (amazing athleticism and defensive recovery)
Rest aassured that any attacks coming down that left side with Kohler, Cafu and Andrade will be snuffed out no matter who they are up against and no offence EAP but Rivelino/Charlton don't have the athleticism to pose quality defensive players like these three serious problems. . Nor does Lizarazu tip this in your favour.
Sorry doesn't seem I tagged you properly -A few questions I would like to pose of you @Edgar Allan Pillow ...
Can Djalma, Burgnich, Forster, Lizarazu really keep Puskas, Meazza and Kopa quiet.... especially if Sammer is trying to contain Didi's influence and Schuster is trying to keep tabs on Lothar Matthaus.. and Charlton is trying to keep Andrade quiet?
Then you have the influence of Cafu down that right, I do not expect Rivelino to track him back at all.. he has free reign down that right hand side.. (any excuse to post this haha)
for all the issues you have with my supposed sub-optimal midfield, you have a struggle on your hand to keep my side quiet when we're on the attack.
In contrast I have a slightly easier time of keeping your side quiet and given everyone specific defensive responsibilities and explained how I will contain your threat and block all your main routes to goal.
Can Djalma, Burgnich, Forster, Lizarazu really keep Puskas, Meazza and Kopa quiet.... especially if Sammer is trying to contain Didi's influence and Schuster is trying to keep tabs on Lothar Matthaus.. and Charlton is trying to keep Andrade quiet?
Then you have the influence of Cafu down that right, I do not expect Rivelino to track him back at all.. he has free reign down that right hand side.. (any excuse to post this haha)
for all the issues you have with my supposed sub-optimal midfield, you have a struggle on your hand to keep my side quiet when we're on the attack.
In contrast I have a slightly easier time of keeping your side quiet and given everyone specific defensive responsibilities and explained how I will contain your threat and block all your main routes to goal.
It is not. My understanding was that when football finally moved to 4-2-4 formations, the standard 2 centre backs in the back 4 were a stopper and a ball playing CB type (what is usually called a sweeper). This position gained more specialization when back 5 was played with Kaizer, Scirea, Krol etc were positioned in a central back 3 supported by 2 other stoppers where they hover as last man behind the defensive line or move up to initaite attacks on their own, the Libero. In this context, I would call Baresi a sweeper, even though him and Costacurta were a standard back 4 throughout their career. Here I put Burgnich as the ball playing CB simply because he has Djalma (a defensive FB) to his side whilst Forster has to remain behind to back stop Lizarazu.
And tbh, I didn't have much comments before to handle
No, from the videos I've watched of Charlton, calling him a final third player is taking away a huge part of this game. Since gif's seem to be the new craze here, below is a example of Charlton's runs from the left middle, exactly where he is placed in this match.
Charlton making runs from left middle. With Rivelino moving to edge of box occupying defenders, the lack of a holding DM opens up space for Charlton.
This is the flip side where Charlton cuts into the middle One more clip below where he is deep in left middle. This is the sort of pass/interaction we can see between him and Rivellino.
He can dribble, pass and run with the ball forward exceedingly well from the deep areas. What made him special is the ability to push defenders and run into space forcing them to move with him.
He still scored quite a lot from there. See the full clip here. The trademark runs from the deep, the screamers from the edge of the box, those late runs which invariably end in goal and the predatory header instinct. He has more to his game than just a final third player.
Surely that's not your chosen peak here. You are playing Matthaus from Inter years, right? Only performances during that peak should be considered mate, not overall career.
That is not my point, I am using it to demonstrate that he has it in him to play a slightly more retrained role than usual i.e. he has good tactical awareness in a defensive sense. That is a purely defensive position he is playing in that video, which is not like the role I am deploying him which is much closer to his best position.
That is him at his peak, I am just using him in a more restricted role than this but you can see that he is excellent down the left hand side, can come deep.. turn out on to his right to switch up play (hit 40 yard pass out to Cafu bombing on.. or a ball over the defence to Kopa/Puskas), or run down the left in possession to support Didi, Meazaza.. loves a tackle too, proper lil hard man.
Last edited:
The reason for Burgnich was because I needed an option to play a standard back 3 with Sammer (not playing it this game) and a RCB would be perfect there. Yes, Burgnich would be spending more time centrally and he certainly is not a weakness there. I have Sammer as a dedicated DM here. In case of counters Forster moves to LCB (where he excelled in Euro 80) and the centre is adequately covered between Burgnich and Sammer. Djalma started his career in centre of defence and he will squeeze in when ball is on the other wing leaving no space for his forwards to exploit.
I think it's too gung ho, having Andrade and Cafu on the same wing. Cafu is a attacking RB bombing up and down the pitch all game. Andrade is a attacking right hall who does precisely the same thing. With Cafu, his team is better off with a player who can close gaps behind Cafu in case of a counter...yes, Andrade could do it here...but it takes away his b2b ability to a great extent. Charlton was initially a left winger. with Sammer there, I don't see him covering for Lizarazu. He will drop just behind the middle line and will wait for the counter. When Cafu loses the ball or attack breaks down, he's there to get my counter rolling.
I was just referring to Annah's conditions:
I never said, he's a liability. Just that it doesn't get the best out of him. He was not a defensive holding midfielder in Inter days from what I recall. But him being Matthaus, I'm sure he do a good job there, but when it comes to his speciality of dominating midfields box to box, it'll not happen in this game.
Andrade.. for those who doubt his defensive abilities, go past halfway once they show the match footage of him in action. Gung-ho is a very poor description of a guy who was one of the best if not the leading player of the 1920's. He had great defensive anticipation and recovery skills.
Anyway, I need to get back to work.
Squeeky bum time.
Good luck Raees!
Squeeky bum time.
Good luck Raees!
Good luck @Edgar Allan Pillow .. tight match!
Jurgen Kohler the man who tamed Van Basten... (interview & articles)
uefa.com: In Holland the name Jürgen Kohler is related very closely with the name of another player. Do you know who?
Kohler: [Ruud] Gullit? [laughing] No, it is obvious, I mean Marco van Basten. He was a player with exceptional abilities. He was a big personality not only as a sportsman, but also as a private person. If we meet somewhere by chance, I think I can say that we have a good relationship in terms of sports and also privately. And we respect each other a lot, and that's the main thing. To have the respect of your opponent. It was always the case between us and, of course, Marco van Basten was very important in my career. I benefited from him. It is as simple as this. He was a big milestone in my career and for me he is one of the players who are the most outstanding personalities of the last century. Not only in sports, also as a human being.
uefa.com: Did you win or lose against Van Basten?
Kohler: I think, it is very close. Sometimes I won, sometimes I lost. In the end I think, I won the bigger title with Germany and from this angle I might have a slight advantage.
uefa.com: The Dutch remember some tough challenges on van Basten. Is this how you remember it?
Kohler: I wouldn't say that. The truth is the duels between us were simply tough with everything football offers. He stood and I delivered and then I stood and he delivered. So there was always a balance from the sporting point of view and I believe, he never complained about me and I never complained about him. And this shows how sports people should and also must deal with each other and behave.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/jürgen-kohler.362103/
Jurgen Kohler the man who tamed Van Basten... (interview & articles)
The 105-times capped defender was part of a golden age of German international football that saw them emerge as the dominant European team in the early 1990s, an era particularly remembered in the Netherlands - the country that hosts Wednesday's final - for Kohler's duels with Dutch striker Marco van Basten. And, as Kohler reveals, finishing his time as a player in a Netherlands venue will allow him to indulge an unusual passion.
uefa.com: In Holland the name Jürgen Kohler is related very closely with the name of another player. Do you know who?
Kohler: [Ruud] Gullit? [laughing] No, it is obvious, I mean Marco van Basten. He was a player with exceptional abilities. He was a big personality not only as a sportsman, but also as a private person. If we meet somewhere by chance, I think I can say that we have a good relationship in terms of sports and also privately. And we respect each other a lot, and that's the main thing. To have the respect of your opponent. It was always the case between us and, of course, Marco van Basten was very important in my career. I benefited from him. It is as simple as this. He was a big milestone in my career and for me he is one of the players who are the most outstanding personalities of the last century. Not only in sports, also as a human being.
uefa.com: Did you win or lose against Van Basten?
Kohler: I think, it is very close. Sometimes I won, sometimes I lost. In the end I think, I won the bigger title with Germany and from this angle I might have a slight advantage.
uefa.com: The Dutch remember some tough challenges on van Basten. Is this how you remember it?
Kohler: I wouldn't say that. The truth is the duels between us were simply tough with everything football offers. He stood and I delivered and then I stood and he delivered. So there was always a balance from the sporting point of view and I believe, he never complained about me and I never complained about him. And this shows how sports people should and also must deal with each other and behave.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/jürgen-kohler.362103/
That's debatable in itself. There's an interesting discussion on it here:It is not. My understanding was that when football finally moved to 4-2-4 formations, the standard 2 centre backs in the back 4 were a stopper and a ball playing CB type (what is usually called a sweeper). This position gained more specialization when back 5 was played with Kaizer, Scirea, Krol etc were positioned in a central back 3 supported by 2 other stoppers where they hover as last man behind the defensive line or move up to initaite attacks on their own, the Libero. In this context, I would call Baresi a sweeper, even though him and Costacurta were a standard back 4 throughout their career. Here I put Burgnich as the ball playing CB simply because he has Djalma (a defensive FB) to his side whilst Forster has to remain behind to back stop Lizarazu.
And tbh, I didn't have much comments before to handle
http://www.milanmania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18506
I still don't think a ball-playing centre back is synonymous with sweeper. For me, a sweeper essentially defends in a different line to the other defenders, whereas in a flat back four, the defense all defend in well, a flat line. They obviously don't all stay in line when the team are in possession. Laurent Blanc, for example, was great on the ball but I still think of him as a CB rather than a sweeper because he generally played in flat back fours.
Yeah, I agree with that. You have ballplaying centerbacks and stoppers, and you have sweepers and liberos. Sweepers and liberos defend in a different line to the rest of the defense with the sweeper usually behind the defense (he's sweeping up after all) and the libero with more freedom, defending pro-active through moving forward, intercepting passes or even temporarily stepping into midfield. Of course it's difficult to make a clear cut distinction and depending on the situation, you can see all the great defenders doing more than just one specific thing. But all of them left an overall picture that fits best in one of those roles and therefore defined a certain way of defending.
Baresi is probably the big exception, because he could do it all perfectly, which makes it very difficult to label his Milan defense.
That's precisely my point, you are playing two peak rightbacks tucked in in the heart of defence all game long. It just doesn't look right to me at all.The reason for Burgnich was because I needed an option to play a standard back 3 with Sammer (not playing it this game) and a RCB would be perfect there. Yes, Burgnich would be spending more time centrally and he certainly is not a weakness there. Djalma started his career in centre of defence and he will squeeze in when ball is on the other wing leaving no space for his forwards to exploit.
He did play as a defensive sweeper at times when Picchi wasn't available. He wasn't a libero, so to say, but rather a defensive sweeper who actually 'swept' behind the defense in this role, like Picchi. They would often be the last line of defense and would plug in where required, gang up on players outwide by making it 2v1 or most importantly, clear up anything which 'leaks' behind the defense. Picchi was brilliant at it and he only used his passing to contribute to attack and rarely, if ever ventured up front. Same goes for Burgnich in this defensive role, without the passing of course.
They were pure defensive 'sweeper's in every sense of the word and were a completely different kettle of fish to the likes of Vasovic, Beckenbauer and Passarella. In fact I can't think of too may pure defensive sweepers other than Picchi and perhaps Schulz if I'm not mistaken.
I think EAP is playing Burgnich as a defensive sweeper which makes sense to me. Inter had a sort of similar defensive set-up with Picchi as the defensive sweeper, Guarneri as the CB, Burgnich as the RCB and Facchetti as the LWB, so I don't see an issue with it against Raees's fairly central attacking set-up. Unless EAP is playing Burgnich as a forward oriented libero which would be completely wrong as that is a role which Burgnich never played.
Don't really see an issue with it myself. D.Santos could play a slightly tucked in defensive role and Burgnich has played at CB for Inter.
Yups. I would also add, I don't even think a sweeper necessarily needs to be good on the ball. Clearly has to if he operates as a libero, but you could easily have a dedicated defender sweeping up who isn't all that good on the ball.
Edit:
what @Joga Bonito is saying above, basically.Was that the case in the years EAP has chosen? If so, any of those times in a notable match?
Yes, which is what I was getting at and Edgar pretty much pictured it above: Sammer isn't really helping in the heart of defence.
Charlton can do a disciplined role on someone like Beckenbauer but not someone with Andrade's athleticism. The early Euro 1980 Schüster can't live defensively with Matthäus bombing forward, and then there's Didí... Sammer, as good as he was, is leaking in that holding role.
In the meantime Cafú and Kopa are destroying Lizarazu, nothing wrong with Lizarazu, it's just they are a superb pair. That drags Forster and leaves Puskas and Meazza (+whoever Sammer chooses not to pick up) vs. Burgnich and Djalma.
I fancy Raees' chances of scoring far more than those of Rivelino-Kocsis-Jairzinho at the other end.
Well if anyone agrees with this analysis.. get voting now as we have half an hour left
It's not really taking away anything, his greatest strengths lied in the final third, it's as simple as that. In a 4-3-3 you'd still have a really good player, but you won't get all those goals that made him the legend he is. Similar for someone like AdS, who's possibly the most complete player ever, and would be world class as a CM in a 4-3-3, but it's wasting so much at the cost of so little.
For once, you give Lothar some credit!
Can't quite remember or find the match but I do know he played there after researching him for one of the earlier drafts.
Most likely played there in this match
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsle...=937/match=62027/postmatch/lineups/index.html
Have I never done that? Remember back in the All-Time draft Effenberg was the designated German in midfield, waiting for either Kaiser of Lothar to materialise.For once, you give Lothar some credit!
Have always rated him, I actually rooted for that German Inter side when they battled with the Dutch side of Milan. It doesn't mean I have to like the cnut.