Rafael da Silva on Anderson, Moyes and United

Alex99

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Wonder what Anderson is doing today
Assistant manager of a Turkish side that just got promoted to their top flight, according to wiki. Retired from playing there the other year.
 

Catt

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Assistant manager of a Turkish side that just got promoted to their top flight, according to wiki. Retired from playing there the other year.
Thanks!

Yeah, hopefully doing something productive and earning his money.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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More like the players think they are bigger than Moyes but even with different players Moyes still won’t make it.
 

Foxbatt

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I love Ando. Him and Hargreaves in the middle was unplayable at times. It's so difficult to get the ball off Ando.
And his antics in front of the keeper when we get a free kick.
I think when Quiroz left the Portuguese speaking players started to decline.
 

arnie_ni

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Yep, that Vardy cheating was infuriating.

The ref gambled that there was a foul from how Rafael stormed in, but he didn't actually touch him.
And having been smashed off the ball to start with which was a massive foul.

It killed Van Gaal's "free" style, Di Maria never seemed the same again, and if there was one game that seemed to upset the apple cart it was that one.
Would honestly love to know how than LVG era would have turned out if that game ended differently.

Although if that was all it took for him to change it up, he'd have done it eventually.
 

Tapori

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There is nothing that can ever convince me that that Anderson-Cleverley midfield would have been nothing short of Fergie's greatest achievement if it wasn't for Kevin effin Davies.
 

Big Andy

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People slag Ole off for this now, but context is important. At that time we’d only a few months before beaten them to the league by 11 points. The only thing that changed since was Moyes, and suddenly we had to aspire to be like them. Wouldn’t surprise me if that’s where he finally lost the players tbh.
He lost the players when he banned chips in the canteen
 

Tom Van Persie

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I love Ando. Him and Hargreaves in the middle was unplayable at times. It's so difficult to get the ball off Ando.
And his antics in front of the keeper when we get a free kick.
I think when Quiroz left the Portuguese speaking players started to decline.
Nani had by far his best season at United after Carlos left.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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There is nothing that can ever convince me that that Anderson-Cleverley midfield would have been nothing short of Fergie's greatest achievement if it wasn't for Kevin effin Davies.
Meh, it was only 3 games.

Plenty of players have played above their weight for a few games like that.

There is nothing before or after that signifies that CM pairing was world class or going to be.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Blasphemy
I mean if you think they would have been a world class CM pairing, I think that's actual blasphemy :lol:

So many fans look back on that start with rose-tinted glasses regarding the two.

You can make a thread yourself and see if others agree with you that they would have been a top class pairing.

We've had much better midfield pairings before and even after than those Cleverley-Anderson.
 

Dan-Utd

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Ive been thinking about this a lot. I think a lot of Moyes’ problem is that no matter what he did the players wouldn’t respect him. He could have done the exact same processes that Ferguson did without any of the same results because of the lack of reputation. It’s why it is so important that a manager has the backing of the match day fans.
Agreed, unless you're new to management but were a well known footballer who won things, or you're a manager who has won things - you won't be respected by the players completely.

You go into the club and start firing the backroom staff and changing things up, never going to work when you've come from a team in Everton where the expectation was very low which meant getting them into a good league position was seen as a massive achievement.
 

stevoc

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Ive been thinking about this a lot. I think a lot of Moyes’ problem is that no matter what he did the players wouldn’t respect him. He could have done the exact same processes that Ferguson did without any of the same results because of the lack of reputation. It’s why it is so important that a manager has the backing of the match day fans.
The truth is respect is earned, Moyes as Rafael said made a lot of changes that many managers would make when taking over a club. But from the autobiographies released over the years it seems he made too many changes in too short a space of time. He should have realized this was a winning set-up that didn't need massive changes, he should have got his feet under the table, got to know the club and earned the players trust and then make the changes he wanted to make slowly. But of course he claims if he had the chance over again he would do everything exactly the same, which is Moyes in a nutshell. Determined to fail.

And plus the day he lost the players was when he took away their low fat chips. Never mess with a mans low fat chips.
 

Partridge

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I remember anderson with fondness mostly, but also, with annoyance. The potential was there. One game, he would really fancy it, and would show it on the pitch, and you'd think, feckin hell, this guy has got the potential to smash it proper. then other games, he couldn't get his dribbling going, or got disposessed too easily. He was infuriating..
 

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The truth is respect is earned, Moyes as Rafael said made a lot of changes that many managers would make when taking over a club. But from the autobiographies released over the years it seems he made too many changes in too short a space of time. He should have realized this was a winning set-up that didn't need massive changes, he should have got his feet under the table, got to know the club and earned the players trust and then make the changes he wanted to make slowly. But of course he claims if he had the chance over again he would do everything exactly the same, which is Moyes in a nutshell. Determined to fail.

And plus the day he lost the players was when he took away their low fat chips. Never mess with a mans low fat chips.
And that is why moyes will always be a mid table manager, at best. I thought at the time, we were mental to give that gibroni a shot. When i think of moyes, i also think of fellaini. Stuff of feckin nightmares, honestly.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
What happened to Rafael? Injuries?

Seems a shame he is playing for a mid table Turkish side having only just turned 31, I always remember him being decent.
I thought he was well on the way to being top class after our last league-winning season in 2012-13. He was impetuous defensively but it didn't look like anything that wouldn't be ironed out over time.

I'm assuming it was injuries that did for him ultimately as a potentially top player as his attitude seemed top notch. Maybe the French contingent can shed some light on it as I'm sure most of us never watched him regularly after he left Utd. @JPRouve @Sayros @Ecstatic @kouroux
 

JPRouve

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I thought he was well on the way to being top class after our last league-winning season in 2012-13. He was impetuous defensively but it didn't look like anything that wouldn't be ironed out over time.

I'm assuming it was injuries that did for him ultimately as a potentially top player as his attitude seemed top notch. Maybe the French contingent can shed some light on it as I'm sure most of us never watched him regularly after he left Utd. @JPRouve @Sayros @Ecstatic @kouroux
He was an average Ligue 1 right back from day one and never improved. He didn't really had a lot of injuries, he is just not good.
 

Isotope

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Ive been thinking about this a lot. I think a lot of Moyes’ problem is that no matter what he did the players wouldn’t respect him. He could have done the exact same processes that Ferguson did without any of the same results because of the lack of reputation. It’s why it is so important that a manager has the backing of the match day fans.
There's a bit disconnect between the opening and conclusion here.
 

Real Name

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The truth is respect is earned, Moyes as Rafael said made a lot of changes that many managers would make when taking over a club. But from the autobiographies released over the years it seems he made too many changes in too short a space of time. He should have realized this was a winning set-up that didn't need massive changes, he should have got his feet under the table, got to know the club and earned the players trust and then make the changes he wanted to make slowly. But of course he claims if he had the chance over again he would do everything exactly the same, which is Moyes in a nutshell. Determined to fail.

And plus the day he lost the players was when he took away their low fat chips. Never mess with a mans low fat chips.
Showing video of Jagielka defending to Rio and Vidic didnt help either.
 

redcafe_reader

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Ive been thinking about this a lot. I think a lot of Moyes’ problem is that no matter what he did the players wouldn’t respect him. He could have done the exact same processes that Ferguson did without any of the same results because of the lack of reputation. It’s why it is so important that a manager has the backing of the match day fans.
Isn't it obvious? He doesn't have SAF's reputation or charisma, so of course he can't do "the exact same processes" and expect good result :rolleyes:
 

stevoc

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And that is why moyes will always be a mid table manager, at best. I thought at the time, we were mental to give that gibroni a shot. When i think of moyes, i also think of fellaini. Stuff of feckin nightmares, honestly.
Despite thinking he would be a disaster from even before he was appointed, I do think there is a world where Moyes might have had some success at United. But it would have took a drastically different approach from United and Moyes.

United's big mistake was giving him the complete control of the club and transfers that Ferguson had earned over many years. If Ferguson thought he should have kept the existing coaching staff in place then that should have been a condition of his hiring. The club should have made it clear to him that he should take things slowly and not make sweeping changes too soon.

Moyes big mistake was believing he was already a top coach and not someone who had been given the chance of a lifetime to develop into one. You see from his blunders like taking the squad to the beach without security on pre-season, to moving the press conferences to a smaller room, and completely changing the training regime to be more cardio focused and having everyone do the same training instead of personalised programs. That he thought he was hired to adapt United to the way he did things at Everton instead of being hired to see if he had the will and talent to adapt to United/Ferguson's way of doing things.

Basically from day 1 he didn't understand why he was here in my opinion.
 

stevoc

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Showing video of Jagielka defending to Rio and Vidic didnt help either.
Who knows if that happened Vidic sort of says yes Rio sort of says no. But if it did, it's not too bad to show defenders a video of how you want them to defend. But it depends how that message was delivered.

Moyes has always struck me as not the sharpest knife in the drawer and certainly not the most self aware so I'm sure in trying to manage the big ego's in the United dressing room he made quite a few gaffes. Like the time he pulled out and started reading a copy of a 'Good to Great' self help book in front of the players on a flight home from a defeat against Olympiakos.
 

POF

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I can't imagine even Anderson getting away with screaming for McDonald's on the team bus with Fergie, Giggs, Scholes, Rooney and Rio in there.
Why not? Because Rooney would be ahead of him in line and Rio would steal his burger and tell him he'd been "merked"?

I love Ando. Him and Hargreaves in the middle was unplayable at times. It's so difficult to get the ball off Ando.
And his antics in front of the keeper when we get a free kick.
I think when Quiroz left the Portuguese speaking players started to decline.
I think your memory is playing tricks on you. How often did Hargreaves and Anderson play together in central midfield?

I loved Anderson too. That knee injury finished him. He had incredible potential.
 

Revan

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Despite thinking he would be a disaster from even before he was appointed, I do think there is a world where Moyes might have had some success at United. But it would have took a drastically different approach from United and Moyes.

United's big mistake was giving him the complete control of the club and transfers that Ferguson had earned over many years. If Ferguson thought he should have kept the existing coaching staff in place then that should have been a condition of his hiring. The club should have made it clear to him that he should take things slowly and not make sweeping changes too soon.

Moyes big mistake was believing he was already a top coach and not someone who had been given the chance of a lifetime to develop into one. You see from his blunders like taking the squad to the beach without security on pre-season, to moving the press conferences to a smaller room, and completely changing the training regime to be more cardio focused and having everyone do the same training instead of personalised programs. That he thought he was hired to adapt United to the way he did things at Everton instead of being hired to see if he had the will and talent to adapt to United/Ferguson's way of doing things.

Basically from day 1 he didn't understand why he was here in my opinion.
Not more than of Djemba-Djemba being a success at United. In Moyes-United wavefunction, the probability of Moyes being a success was 0. Unfortunately, the evolution of Schrondinger's equation didn't have the possibility of Moyes becoming a success here.

He could have done everything right, the problem is that he just was not good enough/talented enough to be a success. If he was a bit more humble and keep the staff etc, he might have had an Ole-like ceiling, which might have kept him at United for a few years, but not getting close to winning the league or UCL.
 

Devil81

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Rafael just confirming what we already knew really, Anderson wasn't professional enough with his lifestyle and Moyes approached the job all wrong.

Touching on Moyes more than Ando, surely someone within the club should have said the honour of managing United is huge enough, the job is yours but you will need to learn to work with Sir Alex's team of coaching staff as that will help you adapt to life at a winning football club. Allowing him to bring in a bunch of coaches that had zero previous experience of success was complete madness and is basically the reason we've had nearly ten years of decline.

The old story of him trying to advise Rio and Vidic is stuff of legend but the reality is he was the manager, whatever way you look at it he's got to try and control and talk to the players. He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't in that situation, if he tried to advise they were always going to think who's this guy think he's advising and if he didn't then he'd have had them walking all over him.

In the end it was just abundantly clear he was well out of his depth and had no safety net to save him, if he'd had Sir Alex's back room staff then they'd have had the players respect, he'd have had half a chance to make it.
 

Revan

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Who knows if that happened Vidic sort of says yes Rio sort of says no. But if it did, it's not too bad to show defenders a video of how you want them to defend. But it depends how that message was delivered.

Moyes has always struck me as not the sharpest knife in the drawer and certainly not the most self aware so I'm sure in trying to manage the big ego's in the United dressing room he made quite a few gaffes. Like the time he pulled out and started reading a copy of a 'Good to Great' self help book in front of the players on a flight home from a defeat against Olympiakos.
Imagine Barca's manager showing videos of Lingard to tell Messi how to dribble.

If Moyes did so (based on Vidic's words, he did), it is absolutely inexcusable.
 

Cloud7

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There's a bit disconnect between the opening and conclusion here.
Yeah I wasn’t sure how that post meant the manager needed the backing of the match day fans :lol:

What it means is that a manager like Moyes should never be hired.
 

stevoc

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Why not? Because Rooney would be ahead of him in line and Rio would steal his burger and tell him he'd been "merked"?



I think your memory is playing tricks on you. How often did Hargreaves and Anderson play together in central midfield?

I loved Anderson too. That knee injury finished him. He had incredible potential.
Not often but I'm sure they played 15-20 games together.
 

stevoc

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Imagine Barca's manager showing videos of Lingard to tell Messi how to dribble.

If Moyes did so (based on Vidic's words, he did), it is absolutely inexcusable.
I don't want to defend Moyes it would feel dirty but you can't teach someone to dribble by showing them a video.

What you can show someone with a video though is defensive shape, positioning, formation etc. As I said there is a good and a bad way to do that though. It could be done in a condescending way which might have been the case with Moyes.
 

Devil81

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Imagine Barca's manager showing videos of Lingard to tell Messi how to dribble.

If Moyes did so (based on Vidic's words, he did), it is absolutely inexcusable.
Rio confirmed the story as well, 100% happened that meeting with Moyes.


I don't want to defend Moyes it would feel dirty but you can't teach someone to dribble by showing them a video.

What you can show someone with a video though is defensive shape, positioning, formation etc. As I said there is a good and a bad way to do that though. It could be done in a condescending way which might have been the case with Moyes.
I actually found his whole demeanour a bad fit if I'm honest, I'd actually cringe at the TV when he did pre and post game interviews as even that felt like he wasn't a Manchester United manager and he just came across like a rabbit in the headlights.

Even the photos on his first day at Carrington, he should have said no to the photos sat at his desk etc...

It looked like the type of photo you'd find in a company website not a man taking over one of the most powerful sport clubs on the planet.
 

hungrywing

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Rafael just confirming what we already knew really, Anderson wasn't professional enough with his lifestyle and Moyes approached the job all wrong.

Touching on Moyes more than Ando, surely someone within the club should have said the honour of managing United is huge enough, the job is yours but you will need to learn to work with Sir Alex's team of coaching staff as that will help you adapt to life at a winning football club. Allowing him to bring in a bunch of coaches that had zero previous experience of success was complete madness and is basically the reason we've had nearly ten years of decline.

The old story of him trying to advise Rio and Vidic is stuff of legend but the reality is he was the manager, whatever way you look at it he's got to try and control and talk to the players. He was damned if he did and damned if he didn't in that situation, if he tried to advise they were always going to think who's this guy think he's advising and if he didn't then he'd have had them walking all over him.

In the end it was just abundantly clear he was well out of his depth and had no safety net to save him, if he'd had Sir Alex's back room staff then they'd have had the players respect, he'd have had half a chance to make it.
Bolded part touches on one aspect of how certain people knew Moyes was seriously out of his depth almost immediately.

When one takes over at an elite organization, unless one is there just to handle a bit of ‘restructuring’ *cough* fire everyone *cough* then one usually makes the I’m-going-to-stay-out-of-everyone’s-way-but-don’t-mistake-that-for-weakness speech.

Coming back to the bolded part, when Moyes sacked the staff, it was a huge indicator of that he’d not given the above-mentioned talk to nip the bolded part in the bud.
 

POF

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Not often but I'm sure they played 15-20 games together.
Together in central midfield?

Hargreaves played 34 games in his only proper season with United and quite a few of those games were at right back or on the right side of midfield. The best performances of his United career were at right back.

You also had Carrick and Scholes in that side. If Hargreaves and Anderson played more than 5 games as a midfield 2 in that season I'd be shocked.
 

Real Name

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I actually found his whole demeanour a bad fit if I'm honest, I'd actually cringe at the TV when he did pre and post game interviews as even that felt like he wasn't a Manchester United manager and he just came across like a rabbit in the headlights.
I remember his pre match interview before Liverpool game when he said they come at Old Trafford as favorites. Sure enough by then we were in horrible place and they spanked us 3:0 without braking a sweat but you never say that. Never.
 

POF

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Even the photos on his first day at Carrington, he should have said no to the photos sat at his desk etc...

It looked like the type of photo you'd find in a company website not a man taking over one of the most powerful sport clubs on the planet.
Completely agree. His grey suit and United mousepad. It was like someone was taking the piss.

I forget who said it but the line that summed him up for me was:
"David Moyes - misery in a suit".

He certainly brought the misery.
 

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Anderson's McDonalds shout reminds me of the McD part in Eddie Murphy stand up show "Raw"

McDooonaalds, Mcdonaaalds, weee want McDooonalds
 

Devil81

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Completely agree. His grey suit and United mousepad. It was like someone was taking the piss.

I forget who said it but the line that summed him up for me was:
"David Moyes - misery in a suit".

He certainly brought the misery.
They actually had a photo of him opening a door as well, it was pure comedy to be fair and I think you are right it was like a piss take.

Fast forward two years and Jose arrived at Carrington for his first day casual and carrying a plastic United shopping bag, it's like he'd seen the photos of Moyes and thought absolutely no way am I making myself look like a right idiot.