Plus I think we will see Mejbri getting chances aswell, like Elanga.
Ralf Rangnick | ex-interim manager | does anyone rate him?
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I did most definitely. And that's because he has feck all credentials to be a coach (beyond finishing his badges) let alone managing Manchester United. He was self proclaimed to not care too much for tactics and had a dinosaur "show me what you got" approach to his players.
Rangnick at least has no issues explaining his philosophy and tactics in depth. Understands what is needed to train players and how to drill players. Understands the value of nutrition, psychology and had very good transfer acumen. He had a track record in the Bundasliga and tiers below where it's far from easy to reshape washed up clubs (or new clubs) into overperforming regularly.
Rangnick has no big club pedigree yet, nor does say Potter or a host of other managers who may well be top drawer given their work in the careers they've had. These guys deserve a proper crack of the whip to instil their methods especially when it's an interim role before moving upstairs. Ole most certainly didnt. It's a joke how he was trusted for so long.
Because he’s gone in blind and all the coaching staff that might have had insights left before he joined.
The other alternative is he comes in and just does everything exactly the same as Solskjaer instead of bothering to assess stuff, then gets hammered for not assessing the squad properly.
Well, Ralf isn't Klopp or Pep and won't be manager long enough to ever reach that level. So yeah, stupid comparison really.This is such a wum post
Would have loved to have heard your views on Klopp or Pep in their first seasons.
You don't find it hypocritical that you're attacking posters who are being critical of the Manager when you have just admitted to doing the same under Ole?
Not at all - these posters are writing off a manager who has a pedigree in implementing a familiar style and has been very descriptive into the context of his decisions.
He explains why he wanted 4222 initially (to get the defensive foundation right, we were conceding far too much. He pointed to this being improved as xg had during that period at least, reduced from 1.1 to 0.6).
Then he said he would tweak to 433 because it was about the balance and more needed in attack, also in control of the midfield. He did this vs Villa and Brentford. He even says this is what he wants to pursue with going ofrward.
However despite context and intelligent deep dives into his decisions (which Ole couldn't do even when he tried), the reaction from these posters are "he doesn't know what he's doing, he's confused, he has no idea what he's trying to implement". It's a lazy writeoff from a coach who deserves a lot more goodwill than Ole. Especially when you consider the structural improvements we have actually made in the last couple of games compared to where we were.
At Ole's peak we still looked like absolute chaos and untrained. It was never ever sustainable.
It's not a comparison as such.
If Pep and Klopp had turbulent times given their CV and pedigree, what makes you think Rangnick should implement his any quicker? You're just being impatient and refuse to understand that he's working to get habits in the team corrected. Which take a long time even under elite coaches.
Well it's simple, the jury is out on Rangnick until significant progress is made and he proves otherwise. So far, progress hasn't been made.
And I'm actually being quite patient, I'm not calling for Rangnick to be sacked. That's more than you ever demonstrated when Ole was manager, and ironically you're now quite vocal that it's the players letting down the manager and that we should "trust the process". You were one of those preaching that "the buck stops with the manager" not so long ago. I guess that must depend on whether you like the manager or not
Follow my posts better.Well it's simple, the jury is out on Rangnick until significant progress is made and he proves otherwise. So far, progress hasn't been made.
And I'm actually being quite patient, I'm not calling for Rangnick to be sacked. That's more than you ever demonstrated when Ole was manager, and ironically you're now quite vocal that it's the players letting down the manager and that we should "trust the process". You were one of those preaching that "the buck stops with the manager" not so long ago. I guess that must depend on whether you like the manager or not
I said the buck stops with the manager after 3.5 years and pointed to results.
Look at Rangnicks results and then try to say hes confused and not good enough.
Dont pretend the jury is still out after your latest posts about him. Youve clearly written him off.
Probably because Ole should never have been appointed. Rangnick is almost definitely done after 6 months as interim as should have Ole. Sentiment is blinding and it's something we, as a club, need to move on from. So many are still so wounded from the Ole sacking they've made their minds up on Rangnick - an interim manager who won't be around for long, who left a stable job to sort out a circus in Manchester. So far, he's done a very good job considering we were being decimated by every team we faced.
This. A lot of people forget hes here on an interim too.
Apparently he thinks that Elanga is English. #Rangnickout
Actually I know he isn't, but listening to his interview after the game, if you didn't know, you would presume he was.
But we started off under Ole on a record winning run. Yet the first bad bit of form that arrived you immediately jumped on him. Here we are under Rangnick, in a relatively straight forward run of fixtures and we've been average. The criticism he's had is valid, we've not had good results and we've not had good performances either. Yesterday was the first decent 45mins under him and we were pretty poor in that first half, De Gea bailing us out twice.
Yet you're attacking posters for not following your opinion, yet roll back 24 months and you were making the exact same type of posts about Ole. You wrote Ole off the second we hit a bad bit of form and now you're trying to force people not to do what you did 24 months previously. Bizarre.
It doesn't even matter in the long run because we aren't going to be appointing Rangnick to full time Manager and nor are we going to sack him before the end of the season. It's a strange battle to fight. It's ultimately completely redundant as it means jack shit at the end of the day. All we need from Rangnick is to steady the ship and get us in the top 4.
Was very gracious about Brentford in his comments – the opposite to the Brentford manager it has to be said. And what he said to Ronaldo was great – the bigger picture. I disagreed with the sub at the time, but can now see his reasoning and fair enough. Hopefully Ronaldo sees the same.
"Anthony stop mimicking Victor!"
Hugely impressed by Rangnick's willingness to change things that aren't working and his balls to take off Ronaldo knowing the inevitable media shitstorm. Remember Moyes being terrified of dropping van Persie and even saying as much to the press? And van Persie had half the clout Ronaldo does. His quiet word in Ronaldo's ear was one of the highlights of the game for me yesterday. Ronaldo looking crushed and muttering "why me though." to himself around when Rashford scored was amazing. I don't have a problem with either though, Cristiano really will use all this as fuel for West Ham on Saturday when we need him again.
I would argue some people didn't take to Ole because he wasn't their man crush Jose. Lets not forget we were a walking disaster under Jose too, Ole did well initially, Rangnick has done ok, 4 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss so far in the league. But its not swing your dick around the forum form, "very good job"... our standards just continue to nose dive if what he's done is considered very good.
Please, you were calling for Ole to be sacked as soon as our form tailed off in his first season.
As for Rangnick's results? What results are those? We've been poor throughout as easy a run of fixtures as you can get.
I haven't written Rangnick off, but I'm certainly enjoying the sheer hypocrisy coming from you lately.
Yes lots of complaints about Ronaldo's reaction in the match day thread, but I didn't see the problem. A lot of our players of old were the same. I'd rather that than the lack of passion shown by many of our current players at times.
If it's OK I'll answer in parts:
He is here to do a hard reset and it's tremendously difficult to do that in 1) Covid reshuffles and a lockdown and 2) a dressing room that is split with many players forcing moves and having no interest to buy into a system that they wont be part of going beyond May.
And despite all of that by the way this manager has still registered wins against Brentford, Villa, Norwich, Burnley, Palace all whilst trying to train better habits into players and taking away the chaos to aim toward control. Something Ole never once bothered to instil in 3.5 years let alone in his interim.
So no, it's not bizarre and no, I'm not forcing anyone. They can have their opinions - I just find them lazy conclusions on the progress.
He's not here for 6 months and disappearing from the club. It's been very thoroughly reported by credible journalists with proper sources at the club that he was brought in for his influence and understanding for overhauling underperforming clubs. Murtough has championed him for this reason.
I was against Ole as an interim. I was against Ole as permanent. I wasn't keen on him from the beginning. Ole was always going to be a bad coach for us - anyone can have spells of good form, be it Koeman or De Boer or Martinez. I still recall being trounced by an already relegated Huddersfield just after he was made permanent thinking "how did no one see this coming it's so obvious".
It's not a straight forward run of fixtures though. He had 16 days interrupted with covid and he has inherited a first team squad where 8 players are definitely out the door, thanks to Ole's mismanagement and false promises. He has not been dealt a squad that just need TLC and a pick-me up. Ole was all vibes and hi5's which is why he can go on a patch before being found out.
He is here to do a hard reset and it's tremendously difficult to do that in 1) Covid reshuffles and a lockdown and 2) a dressing room that is split with many players forcing moves and having no interest to buy into a system that they wont be part of going beyond May.
I'm calling out posts that are lazy by writing off the methods of a manager early on when its clear his remit is to do a reset on the squad and the turbulence is inevitable. I'm calling out the laziness in comparing him to Ole when one is obviously a coach and the other isn't, when one is dealt a tougher hand and when one operates under more interruptions to his preparations due to covid.
And despite all of that by the way this manager has still registered wins against Brentford, Villa, Norwich, Burnley, Palace all whilst trying to train better habits into players and taking away the chaos to aim toward control. Something Ole never once bothered to instil in 3.5 years let alone in his interim.
So no, it's not bizarre and no, I'm not forcing anyone. They can have their opinions - I just find them lazy conclusions on the progress.
And this is where you're wrong. Rangnick isn't here just to steady the ship. He's here to weed out the poor players, to communicate upstairs where we should move as a direction, to implement an actual philosophy that a big club should have in controlling games and to then go upstairs to ensure the next manager has what he needs to get that picture drawn up.
He's not here for 6 months and disappearing from the club. It's been very thoroughly reported by credible journalists with proper sources at the club that he was brought in for his influence and understanding for overhauling underperforming clubs. Murtough has championed him for this reason.
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The best thing is that bad performances have consequences. It's great to see that you don't just walk into the team again if your replacement has been performing reasonably well.
I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll look like a team again by the end of the season. Whether that's enough for top 4 we'll have to wait and see.
I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll look like a team again by the end of the season. Whether that's enough for top 4 we'll have to wait and see.
I didn't want Ole before he became interim
And that's because one is a coach and the other isn't.
The bold bit is what I mean about lazy conclusions @RedSky. Rangnick's points per game in the PL is enough for what, 76 points, and that's enough to get top 4 in most seasons. But Zen86 is now asking "what results? We've been poor throughout". Clearly he's overstating a failure narrative on Rangnick and pretending that our results haven't been good.
He seems to be willing to change things up with tactics and more so players . Left Maguire on the bench for 2 games , dropped Rashford etc. I heard a stat last night that Dalot hasn’t started a PL game in 2 years and he had started 6/8 under Rangnick . Also the same with Telles that he never started a PL game under Ole. I think this was Ole’s biggest downfall. He had too much loyalty to the likes of Shaw , AWB , Rashford and Maguire whereas Rangnick is looking to play who performs in training and matches (Elanga for example )
They both agree about VDB though
They both agree about VDB though
Think you should forget about top 4 for a bit, it's nothing but a distant hope right now. Focus on seeing development of team play, hope for a good performance in the cup competitions. 4th place is likely too big of an ask, Spurs with Conte are ahead of us in the table and have 2 games in hand, and no European football to distract. It's probably going to be them.
At least he's making the change, tbf. Better late than never, but never late is better
Think it is call impartiality. It is quite refreshing. Some of this team needed to be reminded that they have to fight for their place. That cannot be a bad thing. There should always be consequences for persistently bad performances.He seems to be willing to change things up with tactics and more so players . Left Maguire on the bench for 2 games , dropped Rashford etc. I heard a stat last night that Dalot hasn’t started a PL game in 2 years and he had started 6/8 under Rangnick . Also the same with Telles that he never started a PL game under Ole. I think this was Ole’s biggest downfall. He had too much loyalty to the likes of Shaw , AWB , Rashford and Maguire whereas Rangnick is looking to play who performs in training and matches (Elanga for example )
They both agree about VDB though
Its a tough ask but I don't think it's too distant.
If we do our jobs then when all is evened out we can be 3 points off Chelsea. Chelsea and Spurs will face off soon too so it's quite an open race.
We can still catch them but it should be more about sorting ourselves into an outfit that can win the title, not scraping top four every year. Did anyone honestly get excited about our two second place finishes? I didn't because we were miles off DESPITE our lofty league position. I want the bad apples out the club, some proper players brought in, and clear progression. It's shit that we seem to do this every year and end up two steps back somehow but the release of Pogba, Lingard, Martial, Mata, and Matic means we will have a very different looking side in 22/23
Lazy conclusions? Calling out poor performances as being poor performances isn't lazy. And if you that what's been demonstrated so far is Top 4 form then, well, I feel for you.I didn't want Ole before he became interim
And that's because one is a coach and the other isn't.
The bold bit is what I mean about lazy conclusions @RedSky. Rangnick's points per game in the PL is enough for what, 76 points, and that's enough to get top 4 in most seasons. But Zen86 is now asking "what results? We've been poor throughout". Clearly he's overstating a failure narrative on Rangnick and pretending that our results haven't been good.
Isn't it just as hypocritical that the same people that had been saying Ole needs time (who got 3.5 yrs) are critical of RR after 2 months.
At the end of the day RR has been here for 2 months or so, has had to deal with sulking players, short term appointed coaching staff, a demoralised team that has been shipping goals for fun and a some key severely out of form players. He has basically just had to set up the team to play for a result, with covid impacted training over the festive season and a packed schedule. Our results have improved, that is just a fact. No point stating the quality of the teams we versed because we can only beat what's infront of us.
What more do posters want in 2 months, given the state we were in before. Why not get behind him instead. We've already seen how long it takes coaches like pep and klopp to implement a style so I don't understand why RR is on such a short clock..
You're not just calling out poor performances though. You're also pretty much, making shit up.
What you have done though is try and pretend the results are bad. You even say "what good results"? As though you want to pretend we haven't got 3 points vs Burnley Palace Norwich Brentford and just knocked out Villa in the FA Cup.
Re Performances, I'm fine with poor performances as long as we show improvements generally from one game to the next and can keep results broadly ticking over as we find our graft.
I saw us looking a lot more controlled vs Villa in the league than the FA Cup. And I saw us looking better vs Brentford than vs Villa. I can see a trajectory (albeit slow) but I can see results with it. I know performances will be volatile because even elite managers have the same when doing a reset on the squad.
I know Conte has had a few poor performances with Spurs already, I know Klopp and Pep had many poor performances in their first season. So I know that poor performances is not exactly something to beat a new manager with a stick in this early on so long as he keeps the results relevant.
You want to ignore that performances from other managers are also up and down - Tuchel has won 1 in 8 league games I think, Conte just joined and was shite vs Chelsea in the cups, was shite vs Southampton in the league, skimmed Watford himself, was 15 mins to being dumped out of the FA Cup to Moorcambe. You're just making up this daft narrative that we're going nowhere so as to insinuate other managers can take us somewhere quicker. That is ill informed.
And it's because of our last manager we have such low standards. We accepted mediocrity for three years. How can you possible change your standards immediately after that? In Ole's final 7 games, we conceded 19 goals and won 2. In the last 7, we've conceded 6 and won 4; so yes, considering our form prior to Rangnick's appointment, I'd say he's done a very good job.
They tell me time is money, well, we'll spend it together.
I think we're seeing some positive signs, but its also a balanced and reasonable view that we could have lost yesterdays game and then the pitchforks would have been out. Its a (ridiculous) reality that United fans are going to judge everything really quickly these days, and if you're of that mindset then there is plenty there to be slightly hesitant about. We haven't really improved much. We are still making very hard work of lower league opposition. We do still seem to find it easier to concede chances than to create them. You can't have those things happen and think 'wow, this guy has been a revelation!' at this point.
Then again, is it fair to expect any of that? Maybe it is? I personally would prefer a slow and consistent improvement over a new manager bounce because its probably more sustainable, but the fact that we haven't been able to just reorganise this team quickly shows that there are deep rooted issues that Ole was also struggling with. Tried to press and abandoned it. Tried various formations without seeing any more cohesion. This is a team severely lacking in confidence.
Lets give the guy time. There is no guarantee at this point, but he seems to have some idea of what he is doing and these changes are always going to take time. For me, the Atletico ties are the point at which we need to deliver. By then he's had plenty of time & fixtures, and if we can't put up a good showing against a strong European side then questions will need to be asked.
Then again, is it fair to expect any of that? Maybe it is? I personally would prefer a slow and consistent improvement over a new manager bounce because its probably more sustainable, but the fact that we haven't been able to just reorganise this team quickly shows that there are deep rooted issues that Ole was also struggling with. Tried to press and abandoned it. Tried various formations without seeing any more cohesion. This is a team severely lacking in confidence.
Lets give the guy time. There is no guarantee at this point, but he seems to have some idea of what he is doing and these changes are always going to take time. For me, the Atletico ties are the point at which we need to deliver. By then he's had plenty of time & fixtures, and if we can't put up a good showing against a strong European side then questions will need to be asked.
I dont know man...top 4 is still within our reach plus I can bet now Tottenham wont be getting it. Those games in hand will catch up with them plus we will also have to beat them.
For me our top 4 is dependent in how much we limit Ronaldos involvement because its clear our attack isnt fluid with him in the side.
That's true. It's possible, but I don't think I'll think about it/believe once I start seeing some performances of a team that can actually do it. Performances where we create chances, are in control of the game and limit the opponents chances. It's been ages since we've shown anything resembling a good, complete performance even for a one off game, every game is a coinflip how it's going to turn out whether we play Norwich/Newcastle or Wolves/Villa. Those aren't even games with the top 3rd of the league. So id say until we start seeing performances that lead us to believe we have a chance, no point in wasting energy on it.
We dropped points against Villa, Wolves and Newcastle. Even when we've got the 3 points, we were comfortably outplayed for much of those games against far inferior opposition. All I see is "yeah but we were really good against Villa for 60 minutes" and "that was the best 25 mins all season!" being mooted as signs of improvement. We were Moments FC a few months ago and not much has changed since then. Getting a tune out of a squad this expensive 10 minutes here and there, every now and then isn't progress and it's not an achievement. That was Ole's reign in a nutshell. Getting them playing well for 90 minutes is the challenge and we certainly haven't done that so far. You can imagine all the trigger points you like but it's not going to change that fact.
Yeah mate couldn’t agree more. There is a lot to be hopeful about with Rangnick in charge. As you say, hopefully he can have even more influence when he moves upstairs. He’s certainly tackling a lot of problems with the squad which hopefully the next manager won’t have to deal with (moving on troublesome players for starters).
This very much resonates with my feelings on the matter as well. Ole never showed any signs of being a top coach or manager from day one. Either you think that its possible to change a club completely in the space of about 3 days or you accept that Oles purple patch was almost entirely due to the new manager boost where players had gone from a horribly toxic manager to a happy clappy one who just wanted them to express themselves and attack. As soon as teams figured us out (and coincidentally as soon as Ole got his permanent contract. No idea if that is anything to read into that or not) results took a massive turn for the worse.
Most people who watch a decent amount of football and look at how teams play and what the best teams do will have seen the signs that Ole was massively out of his depth early on. If I was to summarise Oles tenure in one statement it would be "gets outplayed by most opponents but expensive players bail the team out". Yesterday is a prime example of what we have seen for years now. We should have lost that game. We were always a hiccup away from results turning and eventually the ups and downs were going to trend towards more downs as the players lost faith and didn't see a long term positive outcome. Anyone who thought that last years 2nd place finish was merited or anything but the result of our main rivals for top 4 being awful needs their head checking.
The other reason plenty of us never thought Ole was up to the job is that he never had any sort of plan or philosophy for his team. If you can name me a single team that competes for trophies in the big leagues and CL that doesn't have a strong club philosophy I would love to hear about them. Not a single top side has a manager that thinks "football is a simple game". Not a single manager thinks that you can be at your best when counterattacking if you want to win leagues and big trophies. You can't try to counter attack vs 12+ teams in the league who are going to sit deep and try and counter you.
He basically had done nothing to improve us as a team apart from buying better players and lets be honest, he has spent quite horribly at times.
Onto Rangnick. I have no idea how well he is doing but what I do hear from him gives me hope that either he will make some progress in the 6 months he is here or will at least have the right focus when he moves upstairs at the end of the season. I don't think people understand just how dysfunctional our setup currently is. Players don't seem to care. They don't seem to listen to instructions and they seem incapable of doing the simplest things that players should be doing instinctually.
Either we have somehow amassed a load of PL footballers who made it this far without these skills or they have been given such little focus for the past few years that they are no longer instinctual. Simple things like tracking runners. Where to place yourself on the pitch to cut out a pass, when to run and when to hold back, communication between players. Yesterday I watched as we had 5 -7 players at the back, only 2 of whom were doing any marking and Brentford, the mighty Brentford were just buzzing around in front of us, making yards of space at will and having their runners make simple runs to receive the ball in areas that in theory were overloaded with United players but because no one comes out to tackle or pressure they were free to do as they please.
Either Rangnick just talks a good game these days or these players are basically not bothering. I know where my money lies.
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