No, you didn't bring it up, you just claimed it was "invented to discredit Ronaldo" although it actually predates Messi's WC win and in fact was invented for Cristiano, not against him
Rank Maradona, Messi, Pele and Ronaldo
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Cristiano Ronaldo’s World Cup peers are Lukaku, Shaqiri and Larsson, rather than Gerd Muller or Pele.
For the last time, stop inventing imaginary points out of your mind. This is getting boring. Reply on what's presented in front of you.
I don't think Ronaldo was poor in World Cup but that's objective any day. It's still one tournament regardless.
Muller having WC and Ronaldo doesn't is irrelevant point. Players playing for Germany will have higher chances to win World Cup in comparison to those playing for Portugal, and Ronaldo's records are better than Muller in all other categories.
Pep's comparison has everything to do with what we're talking. Just like how we have been talking about nothing other than World Cup in this thread, people here also used to say Pep failed at City because he didn't CL with them, both are ridiculous takes that focus on the faults on one's career instead of the whole picture just to prove the points.
For the record, not once in my posts I have claimed Ronaldo is better than Messi, Maradona or Pele. It's the take that he doesn't even belong to this conversation is what's ridiculous.
It's an invented and forced stat regardless of it being invented for Messi or Ronaldo, that's brought to prove certain points rather than being of actual relevance.No, you didn't bring it up, you just claimed it was "invented to discredit Ronaldo" although it actually predates Messi's WC win and in fact was invented for Cristiano, not against him
It's not subjective (which is what I think you meant) that Ronaldo was poor in the World Cup, it's a fact, by the standards of the players we are talking about.
Name one category in which Ronaldo's records are better than Gerd Muller's. You can't, because they're not.
The Pep point is not applicable because not winning the CL with 2 teams (when you've already won it as many times as any other manager apart from 3 guys) is not the same kind of hole in your managerial resume as never performing at a World Cup and not registering a single goal or assist in the KO rounds is for a player who claims to be the GOAT. Sorry.
Finally, I personally never said that he doesn't belong in the conversation. I don't think anyone who knows anything about the game would put him number one but similarly it's very hard to argue that he's not at least top 5 or top 10.
It's subjective.
Is this for real ? This discussion has already been done. Trophies, individual awards and goals scored are all for Ronaldo's favor. Except for the World Cup, no one from those who started this silly comparison brought any evidence that Muller's records are better than Ronaldo's. They best they achieved is saying their trophies count aren't far away from each ?!
Yet people here claim the same. They claimed Pep failed to win CL with City, and failed to win it without Messi which means he's not one of the best managers in history and all this nonsense. Search in Pep's threads in this forum and you'll find plenty of such posts.
Only on this forum will we see people claiming a player who scored 819 goals, won 31 trophies including 5 CLs, and won 5 Ballon D'Or isn't easily among the top 5 in history. As if we see these numbers everyday.
It's the same post. In this thread it's invented to get one against Ronaldo. I don't get why I should care about people using it for the opposite purposes before when it wasn't me who did it.Well, that sounds much different to
I don't think you understand what "subjective" even means if that's your reply on what I posted.
A) it's not subjective.
B) Yes it is for real. Muller has a better goal to game ratio than Ronaldo at literally every level, club, international and in the European Cup. He has a few less club trophies but he never played for billion euro superteams. He has less Ballon D'Ors but the criteria for that award has changed, as I stated previously. Contextually, Muller has achieved all the same things and more in some cases.
C) This is a Manchester United forum, if I were you I would take what is said on here about Pep with a pinch of salt.
D) The 90min mag/site just released their latest list of the greatest players of all time. I believe CR was ranked 8th. So it's not just on this forum that he's not considered to be 'easily top 5'. There are 3 that are almost certainly above him and a couple of others (DiStefano, Cruyff) who have a strong argument to be ranked above him because they were complete players, they didn't spend a large proportion of their careers confining themselves to the penalty area.
4 time European Cup top goal scorer
7 times Bundesliga top goal scorer
1970 WC top goal scorer
1972 EC top goal scorer including the final
1974 WC final - scored the winning goal
68 NT goals in 62 games, 1.1 goal per game when you do not have minnows like Faroe, Azerbaijan, Armenia etc. Ronaldo's favorite rivals
The most clutch player ever -- multiple goals in WC, EC, European Cup finals
Highest goal per game ratio in European Cup
Holding all time goal-record in WC for 32 years
Bundesliga goal records
Gerd Muller is the most underrated player ever.. His combined NT & club record easily puts him above CR7 if goal stats are that important as is today.. Gerd Muller would win multiple Ballon D'ors had he played in 2000s due to huge obsession with goals. Alternatively, if we sent back Ronaldo to 70s, he would definitely not be getting 5 Ballon D'ors over Beckenbauer or Cruyff, and Ronaldo fans would riot asking why Ronaldo is not getting these Ballon D'ors over Cruyff-Beckenbauer as he scored more..
Muller, Cruyff, Platini etc. never had the chance to play against Faroe, Andorra, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Gibraltar, San Marino, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kazkhstan, Liechtenstein etc. etc. etc multiple times.. and they had to play less games because there were much fewer games to be played. You are aware these nations (Ronaldo's all time favorites) were not competing in EC qualifications before 90s, right?
As the great Eusebio said:
"The comparisons make me sad. It's easier now. I never played against Liechtenstein and Azerbaijan".
"It's wrong. There is no comparison. I scored my 41 goals in 60 games. It's easier now because you play more games against weak teams. I feel sad"
https://www.marca.com/2013/09/11/en/football/international_football/1378917585.html
Imagine thinking statpadding against Andorra, Faroe, and tons of other new teams including former Soviet Union nations make you the greatest goal scorer ever (same goal per game ratio as Lukaku-- half of Gerd Muller) because well he scored more playing over 100 games more including tons of minnows that did not exist prior to 90s.. Greatest goal scorer of all time with 0 knock-out goals and assists in 5 WCs, 1 top league goal scorer award in 8 years..
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It's totally subjective to say if a performance is good or not.
For the record, Messi hadn't scored in World Cup KO stages before Qatar 2022. Across 9 games played in KO stages in 2006, 2010, 2014 and 2018, he scored no goals even when they reached the final 2014. He scored 7 goals in these tournaments all in group stage just like Ronaldo. His first World Cup KO goal came against Australia in 2022, just to realize how nonsense this stat is anyway.The goal to game ratio argument falls apart completely when you put in mind that Gerd Muller had always been a striker while Ronaldo spent the majority of his career as a wide forward and moved centrally in the later portion of it.
Muller played for Bayern fecking Munich, are you serious ? Last I checked, legends are supposed to play for the best teams.
Yeah, apart from scoring more goals, winning more trophies and more individual awards, Muller has achieved more than Ronaldo.
That's coming from someone who's claiming Ronaldo isn't one of the best because of his bad record in World Cup KO stages, just to realize how you're bending logic to suit your narrative.
This is a Manchester United forum, the forum of the team whom Ronaldo had an awful last year at, got into troubles with its manager and pissed over his legacy there with his interview before leaving, ending up with him leaving with poor taste in the mouth and most fans having already turned on him. That's a reason to also take whatever said about Ronaldo here at the moment with a pinch of salt.
When did these lists done by a 3rd source mean anything ? As far as I'm concerned it's not any different than someone posting his list in this thread. In one year they put Ronaldo ahead of Zidane and the next one they put Zidane ahead. Based on absolutely.
Anyway, ranking him among the top 5 or even top 10 is still subjective opinion as much as talking about his World Cup performance. In my opinion he's at least 5th.
That's an interesting take. So if I set my kitchen on fire, does that mean I "invented fire in my kitchen"?
Don't get the reasoning behind this post. No one is saying Muller didn't achieve a lot or didn't have a great career. We're just saying Ronaldo have better records, that's all.
And as I said above, Ronaldo wasn't a striker throughout his entire career.
Someone using an argument that supports his own narrative, doesn't mean that others have to know this argument or what it was used before in old discussions before they use it for their own narrative.That's an interesting take. So if I set my kitchen on fire, does that mean I "invented fire in my kitchen"?
You are talking about absolute numbers without putting anything into context, heavily disregarding the realities of different eras..
In your world 100 goals in 100 games is worse than 101 goals in 200 games because 101>100...
Similarly, you are not even aware of the dynamics, perceptions surrounding individual awards at different times. There's no way Beckenbauer wins 2 Ballon D'ors in today's world or Ronaldo 5 in 1970s..
The context is that one of them is a striker and the other is a wide forward, yet you're forcing such comparison about their goals to games ratio. Get over it, Ronaldo wasn't a central number 9 forward for the majority of his career.
You're making it as if winning individual awards in modern age is easy when in reality many football legends of recent times struggled to win even one Ballon D'Or because, guess what, both Ronaldo and Messi dominated it for years.
Yeah, that's what I said ? He spent the majority of his career as a wide forward and moved centrally when he got older ?
You might have misunderstood the earlier post or thought I meant he never played as a striker but what I meant is mentioned in the quoted post above. He spent them majority of his career as a wide forward playing alongside other strikers. He only moved centrally in the later portion of his career. Muller had always been a main striker. Comparing goals to games ratio in that case doesn't make sense.
You said Ronaldo was no striker throughout his entire career. What is a "penalty-box-player" if no striker then?
Ronaldo dominated because of the number of goals he scored + CL trophies with Real.. He did not win much before turning into a striker and eventually a pure poacher.. If there was the same obsession with goal stats in 70s, Muller would easily win 3-4 Ballon D'ors.. The guy was the 70 WC top goal scorer, scored in multiple EC-WC finals in addition European Cups...
You do not seem to get that awards are all about goals output these days unfairly benefiting players like Ronaldo.. No way, Cruyff would win something in this era.. Luckily, Messi is a goal-scoring machine in addition to his insane playmaking, dribbling skills, otherwise he would not be getting that many Ballon D'ors due to obsession with goal numbers again in this era..
Muller had never had a chance to play against Faroe, Andorra etc..
This is Ronaldo's stats with the NT:
against WC winning nations (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Germany, Italy, France, England:, Spain) 7 goals (including 3 penalties) in 32 games, 0.22 per game
against Luxembourg, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Andorra, Kazakhstan, Armenia, B.Korea, Faroe, Azerbaijan (45 goals in 26 games - 1.73 goal per game)
Despite inflating all his numbers due to the presence of tons of minnows, Ronaldo's NT per game goal ratio is almost equal to Lukaku's
I'm puzzled, did you read the quote well? He's saying he's different now, that he has changed to become more of a penalty box player. That's what I said. He wasn't a striker, he just became like that in the later portion.
For the context, here's another quote from him :
Ronaldo's positioning
"People think I am a striker. I will never be a striker. I have scored almost 600 goals from the position I play in so why change," Ronaldo said when asked about the freedom he is given under Zidane.
"It depends on the tactics that the coach lays down. I prefer to play more freely, when we play in a 4-4-2, I prefer it more. But that is not to say that I don't like 4-3-3 because in that system I can move differently and I start in different positions. It's obvious that I prefer to play more freely because that's where I play with Portugal but obviously I like 4-3-3 too."
https://en.as.com/en/2017/06/02/soccer/1496417624_581655.html
Ronaldo scored more goals in the years as an inside forward - Messi, Mbappé, Salah and others are the same. No matter where he played if it was wing or central, Ronaldo was the most advanced forward from about 2008 to present day, so he should be compared to strikers of the past - his role was essentially like a wide striker. Henry was down on the sheet as a striker but he drifted just as much or more than Ronaldo for example.
Ronaldo won a Ballon D'Or in 2008 when he was still a winger at United so I don't get the "didn't achieve much before turning into a striker" logic.Ronaldo dominated because of the number of goals he scored + CL trophies with Real.. He did not win much before turning into a striker and eventually a pure poacher.. If there was the same obsession with goal stats in 70s, Muller would easily win 3-4 Ballon D'ors.. The guy was the 70 WC top goal scorer, scored in multiple EC-WC finals in addition European Cups...
You do not seem to get that awards are all about goals output these days unfairly benefiting players like Ronaldo.. No way, Cruyff would win something in this era.. Luckily, Messi is a goal-scoring machine in addition to his insane playmaking, dribbling skills, otherwise he would not be getting that many Ballon D'ors due to obsession with goal numbers again in this era..
Muller had never had a chance to play against Faroe, Andorra etc..
This is Ronaldo's stats with the NT:
against WC winning nations (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Germany, Italy, France, England:, Spain) 7 goals (including 3 penalties) in 32 games, 0.22 per game
against Luxembourg, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Andorra, Kazakhstan, Armenia, B.Korea, Faroe, Azerbaijan (45 goals in 26 games - 1.73 goal per game)
Despite inflating all his numbers due to the presence of tons of minnows, Ronaldo's NT per game goal ratio is almost equal to Lukaku's
Messi and Ronaldo ARE the reason goals have become such crucial for the Ballon D'Or. Both had insane scoring records that they forced the award towards them, not the opposite, because people haven't seen playing scoring such numbers regularly before. It didn't change to suit Rinaldo and Messi, it's the opposite, their record is the reason the perspective changed, because just two years prior to Ronaldo winning his first Ballon D'Or, Canavaro won it.
Yeah, scoring against small teams is easier than scoring against the bigger ones while playing for the underdogs, so? Are you actually saying players in the old age never played against shit teams both on clubs and international stages?
A wide forward is different from a central forward position entirely. You are acting as if central number 9 ceased to exist or something.
None of these players you mentioned are strikers indeed so it's fair to compare their stats together but don't simply force a comparison between a wide forward and central number 9 in terms of goals to games ratio. The fact these are wide forward and that much prolific is the reason why they stand out among the rest in the world.
If I have to play an important match, give me Gerd Müller over Cristiano Ronaldo any day. There you go, subjectivity.
Or maybe we can use the objectivity of their actual achievements in the greatest competitions of the sport.
Maradona (most deciseive, clutch player I've ever seen) - Pele (iconic and synonymous with jogo bonito; in a country that produces talented footballers, he's considered O Rei)
...
Messi (created in a Barca lab, supremely talented, but not on the level of the other two for me - almost needs the perfect conditions to delver - still more talented than Cristiano)
Cristiano (he's technically inferior to the other three, and it's not even up for debate; I respect his drive and work ethic, but he doesn't have the talent of the other three - a supreme athlete)
...
Messi (created in a Barca lab, supremely talented, but not on the level of the other two for me - almost needs the perfect conditions to delver - still more talented than Cristiano)
Cristiano (he's technically inferior to the other three, and it's not even up for debate; I respect his drive and work ethic, but he doesn't have the talent of the other three - a supreme athlete)
Muller is so underrated - ridiculous goal/game ratio, and didn't he score the highest goals per calendar year until Messi broke it?
I think we're arguing semantics here
Since at least 14/15, Cristiano was maybe positioned on the left wing during the build up for relatively easy interplay but as soon as the team entered the final third, he occupied the box a lot and the nominal striker made room for him. Whether you call that striker or wide forward, it is equally an equally inaccurate description. Fact of the matter, this role was designed for him to maximize his goal output. You make it sound as if his position made it more difficult to score goals when the opposite was the case. Before 2013 or so I wholeheartedly agree but afterwards not.And to be honest, that's the biggest argument against Cristiano in any discussion for me. When he added output to his game for United, he became an unplayable forward that left almost nothing to desire. He became that player around the age of 22 and stopped being it at around 28. People like to argue his longevity puts him aheadin of players such as Maradona or R9 who maybe had a higher peak but Cristiano's longevity is essentially 5-6 years of brillance and then 8-9 years of extreme goal focus.
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In the modern game it’s arguably easier to score as an inside forward as you aren’t expected to do donkey work of occupying defenders, holding the ball up, making dummy runs, it’s been that way for at least 10 years maybe more. The game changes, the way Ronaldo played can be compared to a striker for output.
A) The difference between Messi and Ronaldo is that whilst it's true that he had not scored a goal in the KO rounds before 2022, he did at least have some assists. And he also won the Golden Ball in 2014 and led his team to the final. This is acres more than CR had ever achieved even before Messi put it all beyond doubt this year.
B) Ronaldo spent the best part of 10 years as a striker, please stop lying.
C) Yes, Muller played for Bayern Munich. How much did his squad cost in relation to all the other teams in the league at the time? Did he get to play with the best players from all around the world because of the Bosman rule (against teams like Betis or Bilbao who were mostly homegrown) or were his matches 11 Germans agaimst 11 other Germans? Think about it and get back to me.
D) As others have pointed out, scoring more goals means nothing if you play hundreds more games. Muller has a better ratio. As for the trophies, it is easier to stack them up in the superclub era. Look at players like Dani Alves and Maxwell who have more trophies than Ronaldo, why do you think this is? Please wake up.
E) Never said he isn't one of the best, merely that his crappy WCs (and Euros really, even in 2016 he wasn't great) stop him from being THE best
F) Before all that happened, there was a Messi v Ronaldo poll on the now defunct Messi v Ronaldo thread, which Messi was usually ahead in. On a Man United forum. So comments about him here may have to be taken with a little more than a pinch of salt.
G) Doesn't matter who did the list, the point was to show you that it's not only in this forum that he may be considered not top 5. Of course many people do consider him top 5
H) That's your opinion, fair enough
It's good you said "for me" because he is actually atleast as talented as Maradona. This Argentina team was far from perfect infact the other 10 players who started most of the matches at the World cup are mid table team players, Alvarez is an exception but even he isn't a starter at City.
Messi, in his absolute peak produced Maradona 1986 level performances evert 3 days. Even Maradona did not produce that level as consistently outside Mexico 86.
Maradonna
trophies x 11
world cups x 1
copa americas x 0
leagues x 3
champions leagues x 0
appearances x 490
goals x 259
Messi
trophies x 39
world cup x 1
copa americas x 1
leagues x 11
champions leagues x 4
appearances x 1003
goals x 793
It is offensive that Messi has to do all that and people put Maradona ahead!
Would love to know why Maradona is the GOAT
trophies x 11
world cups x 1
copa americas x 0
leagues x 3
champions leagues x 0
appearances x 490
goals x 259
Messi
trophies x 39
world cup x 1
copa americas x 1
leagues x 11
champions leagues x 4
appearances x 1003
goals x 793
It is offensive that Messi has to do all that and people put Maradona ahead!
Would love to know why Maradona is the GOAT
how did Maradona get on in Spain?
I think Muller is better player than Ronaldo, or Ronaldo is a better player than Muller: subjective.
Ronaldo's records are better than Muller's : facts.
I think we're arguing semantics here
And to be honest, that's the biggest argument against Cristiano in any discussion for me. When he added output to his game for United, he became an unplayable forward that left almost nothing to desire. He became that player around the age of 22 and stopped being it at around 28. People like to argue his longevity puts him aheadin of players such as Maradona or R9 who maybe had a higher peak but Cristiano's longevity is essentially 5-6 years of brillance and then 8-9 years of extreme goal focus.
If wide forwards are now supposed to score most of the goals for his teams, the number of prolific wide forwards in the world wouldn't have been counted on two hands. Most of them who score most of their teams' goals are considered special and some of the best in the game at the moment.
While it doesn't necessarily means he's finding difficulty scoring goals since it ultimately depends on the team's tactics and style of play, it makes comparison like these illogical imo.
I do agree, however, that Ronaldo had the last few years of his prime focused on scoring as many goals as possible and for this he changed his style of play and ultimately his position to suit this change. However, if we are talking about his goals to games ratio, the early part of his career when he was playing mostly as a winger then wide forward will affect the overall ratio.
I don't necessarily find it a problem that he decided to change his style of play. It helped him staying on the top or near it when his abilities to dribble and agility started to decline.
Their collective performance in the final against France with De Paul -Atletico- and Di Maria -Juventus- at the heart of everything didn’t look like mid table… I’ve never seen a team dominate its adversary in a WC final like that before.
Honestly, Messi winning the golden ball in WC 2014 was only due to Argentina reaching the final. If anything I actually believe Di Maria was their most important player in this run. Messi really didn't assist that many goals in these rubs. In 2014 he only assisted once in the KO stages I believe.
Ronaldo spent a big portion of his career as a winger then wide forward before switching to a striker when he got older and his movement and abilities declined. The first part of his career playing as a winger would have an effect on his goals to games ratio so this stat is simply nonsense to use. Ronaldo actually has more goals to games in his Real Madrid career (450 goals in 438 games). You really shouldn't be the one talking about lying since you have invented many imaginary points in this discussion.
Yeah so? First prices of footballers wasn't the same as today, and second he was still playing for the German powerhouse and not some minnows, and third Real Madrid wasn't the only team around who was spending ton of money. Ronaldo was playing for a team spending money against other big teams who are spending the same amount of money.
The goals to games ration is already debunked above, as for the trophies, already debunked as well, counting major trophies alone, Ronaldo still won more. All of these points have been talked about already.