Rank Maradona, Messi, Pele and Ronaldo

[Andrade]

Brazil won without Pele in 1962, and would probably win 70 too, that tells me everything I need to know about Brazil's strength..

You seem to miss the point that Brazil squads were superior well-oiled machines with or without Pele, definitely not the case with Argentina without Messi/Maradona.. We do not know how Pele would perform in an above average NT, he never played in one. But, we know what Messi or Maradona can do in such teams (2 finals each) in an era where you have more teams competing for the WC..

If you use the age "17" argument, I can use the longevity + age "35" argument for Messi and there goes your Pele..

Yes Pele played in better teams and he also did better so that is not an argument. And longevity is not an argument either, why would Pele try and play on till 35 in the national team when he'd already won the World Cup 3 times?! Please be serious.

 

[Swoobs]

In the same breath you’ve erased what others have done with that last statement, he isn’t easily top 5 in a world of Di Stefano, Maradona, Pelé, Messi, Puskas, that’s already 5 players with the claim to be better than he is.

Throw in Beckenbauer and Cruyff as well. Easily top 5…right…

 

[el3mel]

In the same breath you’ve erased what others have done with that last statement, he isn’t easily top 5 in a world of Di Stefano, Maradona, Pelé, Messi, Puskas, that’s already 5 players with the claim to be better than he is.

Yeah except no one said these had done nothing or don't belong to this conversation ? Claiming Ronaldo has achieved more than some of these names is a different thing than saying these don't belong in this conversation. It's a legit claim for me, yes, I'll place Ronaldo ahead some of these names.

 

[mshnsh]

1. Maradona
2. Pele
3. Messi
I give no credence to longevity

Peak talent is the only thing that should be considered when looking for the greatest footballer.
Could even argue Ronaldinho (and not Messi) should be up there with Maradona and Pele on a pure talent perspective

No way was R10 as talented as Messi. He was a showman and as wonderful as he was, he wasn't as good a dribbler, as good a finisher or a playmaker. He was a show man and did more freestyle on the pitch.

As for Maradona and Pele, it is an interesting one but time has grown their legend beyond what they exactly were. I did not watch Pele live but watched Maradona and can confidently say Messi is better. For Pele see the clips i have posted below.

Here is where we disagree. Pele was either the best or near the best in every category as an offensive player. I will not discount the 48" inch vertical nor the 11-second-100 m because I have seen nothing in the video footage to discount it. In fact, the available footage suggests that it is very likely. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I would say he was a once-in-a-century player with no discernible flaw, which is something we cannot say of his rivals to the best-ever title.

The Club careers of Pele and Messi are pretty comparable in terms of accomplishments. The World Cup is where there is a clear separation.

Pele played in 4 World Cups, winning three and was always the decisive player in each World Cup win when he was healthy. His only WC failure in 1966 resulted from his being physically targeted until he was injured. He has, however, scored in every World Cup tournament that he played in, with a record of 12 goals and 8 assists in 14 matches. He scored 3 goals and 2 assists in the World Cup Finals. Yet despite this, the World was denied seeing Pele in his absolute prime in a World Cup during the 1960s.

Messi has played in 5 World Cups and has one more goal and one extra assist in an additional 12 matches. He was a disappointment in 2010 and 2018 but had excellent 2014 and 2022 tournaments, even though the teams were all built around him. He often came up short in the biggest moments, and until 2022 it was the biggest knock against him, and it was one of the reasons for many Argentines he was ranked below Maradona.

Here are a couple of individual highlights from the 1970 world cup @Andrade :

1. VS England

2. vs Italy

Looked quite ordinary (maybe even poor) in these 2 games.

 

[el3mel]

Throw in Beckenbauer and Cruyff as well. Easily top 5…right…

You can throw a lot of legends as much as you want, I mean football has produced ton of legends. Still, Ronaldo has achieved a lot more than many of them.

 

[Andrade]

No way was R10 as talented as Messi. He was a showman and as wonderful as he was, he wasn't as good a dribbler, as good a finisher or a playmaker. He was a show man and did more freestyle on the pitch.

As for Maradona and Pele, it is an interesting one but time has grown their legend beyond what they exactly were. I did not watch Pele live but watched Maradona and can confidently say Messi is better. For Pele see the clips i have posted below.

Here are a couple of individual highlights from the 1970 world cup @Andrade :

1. VS England

2. vs Italy

Looked quite ordinary (maybe even poor) in these 2 games.

Watch the games

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Brazil won without Pele in 1962, and would probably win 70 too, that tells me everything I need to know about Brazil's strength..

You seem to miss the point that Brazil squads were superior well-oiled machines with or without Pele, definitely not the case with Argentina without Messi/Maradona.. We do not know how Pele would perform in an above average NT, he never played in one. But, we know what Messi or Maradona can do in such teams (2 finals each) in an era where you have more teams competing for the WC..

If you use the age "17" argument, I can use the longevity + age "35" argument for Messi and there goes your Pele..

What does it say about Pele though that Brazil had Didi, Garrincha, Vava, Tostao, Gerson, Rivellino, Jairzinho… yet the best player without question was Pele in that era?

To be the undisputed king of a great team is an achievement in itself - same with Messi at Barcelona who played with Henry, Eto’o, Ibrahimovic, Villa, Suarez, Neymar, Griezmann and he was always the best player on the pitch.

If Messi or Pele goes to a mid-table team, it’s no achievement to be considered the best player and have everything go through them, for a manager of a top team to constantly rely on the greatness of one player surrounded by other great players shows a player’s standing in the game.

Also if Argentina won the World Cup and Messi did his hamstring and Dybala filled in fully fit and had the tournament of his life, it wouldn’t make Dybala better than Messi. Garrincha was a spectacular player but Pele was clearly the best player in 1962 before he got injured, them winning it anyway didn’t change that.

 

[wangyu]

I find it quite irritating how the Messi or Maradona fans continue to underrate the Argentina national team.
They won the world title in 1978 without Maradona, they had more than one good player.
Messi played in an incredibly talented Argentina side throughout his career.
They just failed to show up most of the time.

Brazil in 66 was extremely talented too but they failed in the group stage proving that Brazil was beatable.
People speak as if Brazil back then were simply too good which is ridiculous
Belgium beat Brazil 5-1 in a friendly in 1963. Pele did not play.

I read here that people are not impressed by Pele’s age of 17. How many 17 year olds do you know who were instrumental in winning a world cup? Messi being 35 is definitely not equally impressive, he had a lifelong career of experience, Pele only had his youth and guts.

Some people seem to have the notion that football pre 1980s was some sort of different Neanderthal sport? In a way it was but not in terms of technical and tactical ability. It was was in terms of tackling. Pele was effectively kicked out of 2 world cups.

Was he better than Messi? Who knows but his impact was huge and it is still being debated 50 years later. If that is not an endorsement then I don’t know what it. Based on his skillset and videos there is absolutely nothing he can‘t do that Messi can. They could well be equals.

Cristiano does not belong in this list, there is more about football than scoring goals otherwise people would still be talking about Greaves, Muller or Kocsis but nobody is.
There is enough evidence on youtube that Cristiano did not have Pele or Messi’s skillset and that is imo a fact.

 

[mshnsh]

Watch the games

Honestly can't be bothered and don't have the time but these individual highlights aren't good. However the performance vs Czechoslovakia looks great:


Good vs Peru


Good moments but loses the ball alot as well vs Bulgaria


I cannot judge him based on a few matches but to me he doesn't look better than Messi. At the end of the day I think they played in different eras and each is the best of their era and the top 2 GOAT candidates.

 

[wangyu]

@mshnsh

I think you can easily find dozens of matches where Messi loses the ball often. How often has he failed to deliver in the CL in his last couple of years? You can also highlight numerous world cup games where Messi simply comes out short.

Does this make Messi a lesser player? No because we know his peak which he also showed numerous times. These Pele examples don’t prove a lot, I’m fairly certain there are games to be found where he hit near perfection as well.

 

[genardk]

Yes Pele played in better teams and he also did better so that is not an argument.

Yours is not even an argument as you are not even aware that playing in a better team elevates your game,.. R9 being surrounded by Rivaldo Ronaldinho etc. instead of average players (in a highly functioning team even without him) elevated his game, got it? That's the point. Maradona and Messi were not a part of amazing teams who could win the WC even without them unlike Pele..

Also, that's the reason why people are impressed by Maradona's spoils at Napoli..

And longevity is not an argument either, why would Pele try and play on till 35 in the national team when he'd already won the World Cup 3 times?! Please be serious.

You seem to miss the point again. You are the one bringing this age thing implicitly setting it as a condition, like if you wanna be the GOAT, win the WC at 17, which tbh does not make any sense.. And that's my answer to you, I am setting the condition just like you conditioning that if you want to be considered a GOAT, win the WC at 35.. There's no other player who did that excluding Messi just like there's no one else other than Pele who did at at 17 as the best player of their teams. Both are equally impressive..

 

[wangyu]

Alfredo Di Stefano, what a great compilation. Look how effortlessly he handles the ball on such dire pitches. What an entertainer. He is the 1940s/50s Zidane, the big difference is he also scored truckloads of goals Which probably makes him look more like a Zlatan styled player.

 

[Krakenzero]

Guys, you're overthinking this:

Pelé - 4 times in the WC, 3 wins.
Maradona - 4 times, 1 win.
Messi - 5 times, 1 win.
C.Ronaldo - 5 times, 0 win.

Easy. We can count the goals and assists per game too if you want.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That is pure speculation. Football does not work that way.

By that logic, we can then blame Messi for leading a team that contained the following players to a 4- 0 hammering at the hands of Germany in the quarter-finals.


Lionel Messi
Sergio Aguero
Gonzalo Higuain
Carlos Tevez
Angel Di Maria
Nicolas Otamendi
Javier Mashcerano
Juan Sebastian Veron
Gabriel Heinze
Walter Samuel

Not really. Names don't win you trophies. That Argentina team was poor and was managed by Maradona. They fielded on midfielder against Germany and really had no chance whatsoever.

I think the point is that you can't compare without context. Pele was part of an era of Brazillian football where they were the dominant force of the sport. Messi's Argentina have done extremely well to win what they have over the last 12 years. Huge gulf in class between the two as a collective.

Although I'd argue it's futile to argue across 50 years anyway. I have no real opinion on Pele aside from admiration for his fears and a slight feeling that whatever I watch from him, he doesn't really look a freak of a talent in the same way that Maradona and Messi did. Maybe the game was a much weaker then but Maradona looks several notches above in terms of natural talent. Again it's just a hunch as I've seen little.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Guys, you're overthinking this:

Pelé - 4 times in the WC, 3 wins.
Maradona - 4 times, 1 win.
Messi - 5 times, 1 win.
C.Ronaldo - 5 times, 0 win.

Easy. We can count the goals and assists per game too if you want.

Thats stupid

 

[wangyu]

Either way Pele or Brazil in general never needed extensive help by the refereeing department unlike Argentina who had several questionable calls in their 3 world cup victories.

That said I remember how the Belgians got hard done by by the referee in their match vs Brazil in 2002

I also find it slightly amusing how Pele’s quality gets dusted off because he was surrounded by brilliant players. As if Messi ever played in a weak side… His Barca is widely seen as the most insanely talented team of all time and his current team his stacked as well.

I mean just be fair guys, Pele is right up there, there should be no debate.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

People saying Ronaldo doesn't belong to this discussion in history must be trolling ? I mean yeah last year hasn't been kind on but come on, for God's sake, it's not going to suddenly erase what he achieved in the rest of his career.

Easily Top 5 in history.

No one is trolling.

There's legitimate arguments that he's not top 5.

He lacks a resounding showing at a Euros or WC compared to other greats.

And he lacks a certain artistry with the ball. Gerd Muller is arguably a better goal-scorer than him and he's never featured in these discussions.

 

[Krakenzero]

Thats stupid

Thanks. By the way, how many trophies did the dominant Brazil NT have before the emergence of Pelé? How many did they win the 10-20 years after him? We can make the comparison with Maradona/Messi/Cristiano if you like.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Thanks. By the way, how many trophies did the dominant Brazil NT have before the emergence of Pelé? How many did they win the 10-20 years after him? We can make the comparison with Maradona/Messi/Cristiano if you like.

This isn't tennis. It's a team sport. It's like attributing all of Spains success to the emergence of Iniesta as opposed to a golden generation of players (plural) - i.e moronic

 

[Revan]

Thanks. By the way, how many trophies did the dominant Brazil NT have before the emergence of Pelé? How many did they win the 10-20 years after him? We can make the comparison with Maradona/Messi/Cristiano if you like.

football is played more than a month every four years.

 

[Krakenzero]

This isn't tennis. It's a team sport. It's like attributing all of Spains success to the emergence of Iniesta as opposed to a golden generation of players (plural) - i.e moronic

So you're saying that discussing who the GOAT is in a team sport, is moronic?

Continuing in that era of brazilian domination, I would imagine that it shouldn't have been only in the NT but in clubs as well, since they had the same players. How did brazilian teams perform in the Copa Libertadores those years? How many titles did they win?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

So you're saying that discussing who the GOAT is in a team sport, is moronic?

Continuing in that era of brazilian domination, I would imagine that it shouldn't have been only in the NT but in clubs as well, since they had the same players. How did brazilian teams perform in the Copa Libertadores those years? How many titles did they win?

Yes it's silly as its impossible to compare across 60 odd years. But to focus purely on trophies, now that is truly moronic.

 

[mshnsh]

@mshnsh



I think you can easily find dozens of matches where Messi loses the ball often. How often has he failed to deliver in the CL in his last couple of years? You can also highlight numerous world cup games where Messi simply comes out short.



Does this make Messi a lesser player? No because we know his peak which he also showed numerous times. These Pele examples don’t prove a lot, I’m fairly certain there are games to be found where he hit near perfection as well.

I have not made any judgement based on a couple of games. Bit it is possible that time has magnified his legend greatly.

 

[Goalfather]

An excellent Times Article on Pele

He was not a striker, but an extremely dynamic attacking midfielder with a box-to-box role who at times could play as high as a centre-forward, and at times as deep as a central midfielder. He was an excellent dribbler, a prolific long-range shooter and a brilliant header of the ball. He was also a highly creative player who could play the final pass, and who scored and assisted at Messi-like rates. Although for most of us Pelé is a two-dimensional image glimpsed in faded highlights, he was an extraordinarily rounded, multi-dimensional footballer. His status as one of the greatest to ever play the game is assured, and well-founded

In my mind, what separates Pele from Messi is that Pele did not need to have an offensive scheme built around him for him to thrive. He could play within a team's offensive scheme because he had no real weakness in his game. Pele did not need a player like Rodrigo De Paul as a minder to be successful. Brazilian coaches could afford to pick a balanced squad with Pele performing both the offensive and defensive duties required of the position.

Messi has had teams built specifically around his strengths for most of his career. The reason why he was largely unsuccessful for Argentina until the present was that Argentine coaches could not replicate the Barcelona model at the international level, which resulted in a lot of square pegs placed in round holes to accommodate Messi. Whilst Pele could coexist with talented players like Rivelino, Tostao and Jairzinho, Messi could not thrive in such an environment, without similarly gifted players taking a minor role.

 

[Andrade]

Yours is not even an argument as you are not even aware that playing in a better team elevates your game,.. R9 being surrounded by Rivaldo Ronaldinho etc. instead of average players (in a highly functioning team even without him) elevated his game, got it? That's the point. Maradona and Messi were not a part of amazing teams who could win the WC even without them unlike Pele..

Also, that's the reason why people are impressed by Maradona's spoils at Napoli..



You seem to miss the point again. You are the one bringing this age thing implicitly setting it as a condition, like if you wanna be the GOAT, win the WC at 17, which tbh does not make any sense.. And that's my answer to you, I am setting the condition just like you conditioning that if you want to be considered a GOAT, win the WC at 35.. There's no other player who did that excluding Messi just like there's no one else other than Pele who did at at 17 as the best player of their teams. Both are equally impressive..

Interesting that you use the R9 example. So did R9 score and/or assist in every World Cup game that he played in? Of course not.
The fact of the matter is that Messi and Maradona had good enough teams around them to perform better at certain World Cups (e.g. 1982, 2010 etc.) and they didn't. Regarding the age thing, if you think doing something at 35 with an entire career of experience is the same as doing something at 17, then I don't know what to tell you. There's a number of players who played in, scored in and won World Cups who were older than 35. Messi is not even the oldest player to score in a WC final FFS.

 

[Denis' cuff]

Honestly can't be bothered and don't have the time but these individual highlights aren't good. However the performance vs Czechoslovakia looks great:


Good vs Peru


Good moments but loses the ball alot as well vs Bulgaria


I cannot judge him based on a few matches but to me he doesn't look better than Messi. At the end of the day I think they played in different eras and each is the best of their era and the top 2 GOAT candidates.

Pele was injured in the first game in 66 after being constantly kicked by the Bulgarians. Missed the Hungary game and think he only lasted part way through vs Portugal after they repeated the Bulgarian methods. Shouldn’t have even started vs Portugal but obvs trying to salvage qualifying for the knock out stages, so he was played

 

[Isafim]

Alfredo Di Stefano, what a great compilation. Look how effortlessly he handles the ball on such dire pitches. What an entertainer. He is the 1940s/50s Zidane, the big difference is he also scored truckloads of goals Which probably makes him look more like a Zlatan styled player.

Forgive me those who think differently. But for me Di Stefano played more than Cruijff and Maradona. At the peak, at the career and is also greater in terms of titles.

 

[Pocho]

Either way Pele or Brazil in general never needed extensive help by the refereeing department unlike Argentina who had several questionable calls in their 3 world cup victories.

That said I remember how the Belgians got hard done by by the referee in their match vs Brazil in 2002

I also find it slightly amusing how Pele’s quality gets dusted off because he was surrounded by brilliant players. As if Messi ever played in a weak side… His Barca is widely seen as the most insanely talented team of all time and his current team his stacked as well.

I mean just be fair guys, Pele is right up there, there should be no debate.

yeah sure. Argentina lose that final in 1990 with a soft penalty, in the 2014 final Neuer almost killed Higuain and no penalty was given. So your argument is stupid

 

[Pocho]

Alfredo Di Stefano, what a great compilation. Look how effortlessly he handles the ball on such dire pitches. What an entertainer. He is the 1940s/50s Zidane, the big difference is he also scored truckloads of goals Which probably makes him look more like a Zlatan styled player.

please watch that penalty 5:59 hilarious

 

[Andrade]

Thanks. By the way, how many trophies did the dominant Brazil NT have before the emergence of Pelé? How many did they win the 10-20 years after him? We can make the comparison with Maradona/Messi/Cristiano if you like.

Zero World Cups before Pele came into the team and zero World Cups for 24 years after he retired from the Brazil team.

 

[el3mel]

No one is trolling.

There's legitimate arguments that he's not top 5.

He lacks a resounding showing at a Euros or WC compared to other greats.

And he lacks a certain artistry with the ball. Gerd Muller is arguably a better goal-scorer than him and he's never featured in these discussions.

That's not true though. Ronaldo has been great for Portugal in most international tournaments he played in including World Cup. People seem to ignore his role in Euro 2016 win due to not playing the final despite the fact his goals against Hungary were pretty much the reason Portugal managed to get past the group stage to start with.

Winning World Cup is a different thing, he isn't going to win it on his own. He did his job and that's what matters. It's not his problem the manager sucks or that there are better teams in the tournament.

Ronaldo doesn't lack artistry. Where did that come from? He was a very skilled player at his young age and early prime years at both United and Madrid. He just changed his style the older he grew up to be less focused on skills and more on his physical abilities and goal scoring skills. He still scored many incredible goals from different positions and angles.

So yeah, for me he's easily top 5 and he has achieved a lot more than many legends you and others can mention. That doesn't mean they did nothing or don't belong in this conversation, but Ronaldo's record is simply better than many of them

 

[wangyu]

yeah sure. Argentina lose that final in 1990 with a soft penalty, in the 2014 final Neuer almost killed Higuain and no penalty was given. So your argument is stupid

I was talking about their victories in 78,86 and 22 not their losses

 

[Pintu]

I was talking about their victories in 78,86 and 22 not their losses

What’s shady about the 86 victory? And the 22 victory?

I want a real answer not the bs it about Maradona’s handball when England should have been down to 10 for kicking him long before that goal.

They played better than the opposition almost the entire time during these 2 competition. They scored goals and created a shitload of chances in every single game.

 

[genardk]

That's not true though. Ronaldo has been great for Portugal in most international tournaments he played in including World Cup.

Yeah, he definitely was great for Portugal with 0 goal + 0 assist in the knock-out rounds in 5 WCS.
By far, the worst performing guy in the WC in the top 10 best players ever list,.. Doubt he may even be considered a top-100 WC player..

Ronaldo doesn't lack artistry. Where did that come from? He was a very skilled player at his young age and early prime years at both United and Madrid. He just changed his style the older he grew up to be less focused on skills and more on his physical abilities and goal scoring skills. He still scored many incredible goals from different positions and angles.

That's called a compromise.. None of the top attacking midfielders-forwards decided to become a tap-in merchant leaving all their skills (other than goal-scoring) on the table.. Messi, Zico, Maradona, Platini etc. did not have to do that to boost their goal scoring numbers. Ronaldo simply realized that he could not continue to do this artistic stuff and goal-scoring etc. at the same time.. He was never a GOAT level playmaker, passer, creator, dribbler anyway..

So yeah, for me he's easily top 5 and he has achieved a lot more than many legends you and others can mention. That doesn't mean they did nothing or don't belong in this conversation, but Ronaldo's record is simply better than many of them

His record is not even better than Gerd Muller (way inferior than Muller's NT record) who is not even considered a top-10.

 

[genardk]

Interesting that you use the R9 example. So did R9 score and/or assist in every World Cup game that he played in? Of course not.
The fact of the matter is that Messi and Maradona had good enough teams around them to perform better at certain World Cups (e.g. 1982, 2010 etc.) and they didn't.

Do you believe Argentina would win the WC without Messi/Maradona?
Well, Brazil just did that in 1962 WC.. They had well-oiled machines in 58 & 70, could easily win at least one of these without Pele as well..

The funny thing is I have been to Brazil many times, and even the Brazilians in their 40s-50s do not support Pele as passionately as some of the guys here. They say they know he is one of the top 2 players or the greatest ever, but other than that don't know much as they never had the chance to follow him closely so feel closer to players like Zico, R9, Ronaldinho etc. Yet, we had the experts here who knew everything about his game, skills etc from a few clips,, that's hillarious... Pele's status in Brazil is not comparable to that of Maradona and probably Messi in Argentina..

Regarding the age thing, if you think doing something at 35 with an entire career of experience is the same as doing something at 17, then I don't know what to tell you. There's a number of players who played in, scored in and won World Cups who were older than 35. Messi is not even the oldest player to score in a WC final FFS.

You are not kidding anyone with this age thing etc.. As if there were not many players with similar experience playing in betters teams than Argentina in the WC)) Why could not they do it if it is so easy?

You continue to miss points again and again.. Messi was the best player of the tournament in 2022 at the age of 35, nobody did that, got it? Then you are changing the goal-post saying there was someone older than him that scored in a WCs, big deal)) Was that guy the best player of the tournament? Nope, so, there goes your argument again..

 

[Krakenzero]

Do you believe Argentina would win the WC without Messi/Maradona?
Well, Brazil just did that in 1962 WC.. They had well-oiled machines in 58 & 70, could easily win at least one of these without Pele as well..

You continue to miss points again and again.. Messi was the best player of the tournament in 2022 at the age of 35, nobody did that, got it? Then you are changing the goal-post saying there was someone older than him that scored in a WCs, big deal)) Was that guy the best player of the tournament? Nope, so, there goes your argument again..

So in the end, it is an argument based in belief... Therefore I could think that Argentina wouldn't have won the WC without Dibu so he must be GOAT as well.

BTW, the age of the other last WC golden ball winners was:
-32 (Luka Modric)
-31 (Diego Forlán)
-34 (Zinedine Zidane)
-33 (Oliver Kahn)

 

[Krakenzero]

Zero World Cups before Pele came into the team and zero World Cups for 24 years after he retired from the Brazil team.

Thanks. So apparently this dominance lasted exactly the amount of time Pelé was in the squad. Too much of a coincidence if you ask me.

However, if someone isn't happy about what the results of the most important tournament in the sport say, we can also look at how did he do in the clubs biggest competitions at the time, let's say, the 3 Libertadores and the 2 Intercontinental Cups that he played. Spoiler: his record is even better than the one at the WC.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Alfredo Di Stefano, what a great compilation. Look how effortlessly he handles the ball on such dire pitches. What an entertainer. He is the 1940s/50s Zidane, the big difference is he also scored truckloads of goals Which probably makes him look more like a Zlatan styled player.

Wow this is a great video given the era, what a talent!

 

[Buckie]

1. Pele
2. Maradona
3. Ronaldo
4. Messi

 

[mshnsh]

Guys, you're overthinking this:
Pelé - 4 times in the WC, 3 wins.
Maradona - 4 times, 1 win.
Messi - 5 times, 1 win.
C.Ronaldo - 5 times, 0 win.
Easy. We can count the goals and assists per game too if you want.

Lots of factors come into this. Pele's Brazil was stacked with great players at a time when the European countries were emerging from hell. Non of the other players played in teams anywhere near as good. Brazil won the WC in 1962 without Pele in all but one game.

Having a good manager is also important. The one time Argentina had a really good team (not as good as Pelés Brazil), they had Maradona as manager.

In addition, in mordern football, by the time the wc arrives (2022 an exception), the players have already played atleast 50 games and are burnt out whereas back in the day they played much fewer games so they were relatively fresh and able to perform on the big stage. It therefore wasn't surprising that Qatar 2022 is one of the best tournaments ever.

Add to that the tactical evolution of the game. In today's game, everyone has seen Messi/Cristiano etc play week in/ week out. Every minute detail is analysed and worked on. They know their strengths and weaknesses. Teams are drilled to be able to stop them. On the other hand, most people saw Pele only at the world cup or in friendlies so it was probably more difficult to plan tactically on how to stop him or the Brazilian national teach. This applies to Maradona although to a lesser extent. TV coverage was not as wide.

On the flip side, the ball was heavy, the pitches very imperfect.

For me, not having watched Pele, i'd say Messi is the best I have ever seen.

@mshnsh

I think you can easily find dozens of matches where Messi loses the ball often. How often has he failed to deliver in the CL in his last couple of years? You can also highlight numerous world cup games where Messi simply comes out short.

Does this make Messi a lesser player? No because we know his peak which he also showed numerous times. These Pele examples don’t prove a lot, I’m fairly certain there are games to be found where he hit near perfection as well.

Bad games can happen to anyone.
It's quite clear that you never actually watched Pele and are assuming based on hearsay. What I am trying to highlight is that while Pele was the best of his era, the way people try to speak about him as being some sort of superman is not true. They have created a myth and these matches show that it wasn't always perfect even at the word cup.