Rank these midfielders in an order.

[The holy trinity 68]

There's a pretty big gap between the first four (Xavi Iniesta Modric and Pirlo) and the second four for me

Ridiculous. Scholes is better than Modric and Pirlo, granted Iniesta and Xavi are a level above though.

 

[Rojofiam]

Xavi
Iniesta
Modric
Scholes
Pirlo
Gerrard
Kroos
Lampard

 

[KikiDaKats]

Pirlo
Xavi
Modric
Iniesta
Gerrard
Scholes
Lampard
Kroos

*Makhelele and Seedorf should've been on that list for influence.

 

[youmeletsfly]

Lampard, Gerrard, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo, Modric, Kroos, Scholes.

Scholes
Iniesta
Pirlo
Xavi
Gerrard
Lampard

Don't care about Kroos and Modrid, they're a level or two below.

 

[El Zoido]

Gerrard
Iniesta
Kroos
Lampard
Modric
Pirlo
Scholes
Xavi

Went for alphabetical.

 

[ghagua]

1) Xavi
2) Pirlo
3) Iniesta
4) Scholes
5) Modric
6) Lampard
7) Kroos
8) Gerrard

 

[11101]

Xavi - arguably the best midfielder ever
Iniesta - brilliant, but very much an attacking player
Scholes - a low rent Xavi
Pirlo - wonderful player but couldn't quite dictate the game the way those above him could
Modric - same as Pirlo, just not quite as good
Gerrard - great player, but played like Roy of the Rovers. Couldn't control a game.
Kroos - good but he's a clear level below the others
Lampard - forged a brilliant career and you would want him in a team over some of the others, but he was nowhere near as good a footballer as them.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Xavi Iniesta
Scholes
Modric Pirlo
Kross Lampard Gerrard

 

[IhabX7]

Iniesta
Xavi
Modric
Scholes
Gerrard
Pirlo
Lampard
Kroos

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Xavi
Iniesta

Scholes
Modrić
Pirlo

Gerrard
Kroos
Lampard

Sounds about right to me. Yes, Modric won a ballon-dor by default that year, but I still rate Scholes as a better midfielder than him. Xavi & Iniesta are untouchable at the top.

Xavi - arguably the best midfielder ever
Iniesta - brilliant, but very much an attacking player
Scholes - a low rent Xavi
Pirlo - wonderful player but couldn't quite dictate the game the way those above him could
Modric - same as Pirlo, just not quite as good
Gerrard - great player, but played like Roy of the Rovers. Couldn't control a game.
Kroos - good but he's a clear level below the others
Lampard - forged a brilliant career and you would want him in a team over some of the others, but he was nowhere near as good a footballer as them.

Nearly in complete agreement with these. Just that I can't quite separate Xavi and Iniesta. Xavi is the better genuine CM. But some of the things Iniesta did with the ball were just magical.

 

[BlackBen]

1. Xavi
2. Iniesta
3. Scholes
4. Pirlo
5. Modric
6. Kroos
7. Gerrard
8. Lampard

 

[harms]

The sacchi quote has been come a bit of a red herring, it’s one great mans opinion but we don’t have to agree with every decision or opinion made by great managers otherwise maybe we would have to rate the likes of Baggio less?

The truth is it’s not really that he required the team to be built around him, it reallys that he was simply Liverpool’s best player in every position. He had a world class season as a RM, CM AM and DM so why should his versatility be used against him?

Alonso had two at most good seasons at Liverpool, because he was a specialist midfielder who could literally only play one position to a top level shouldn’t be used against Gerrard who could play to a top level in many. Funny you bring it up but The infamous slip was a small part of a great season that had Gerrard finish in the team of the year and easily one of the best midfielders in the league at 34 as a deep lying playmaker, yet the slip sums up the season for him more than the numerous class performances he put in to help his team actually be in a title challenge? Yet that one moment defines everything?

I don't agree with Sacchi because he was a great manager, I use this quote because I fully agree with it, but his opinion should hold more weight than mine. Fergie also said a similar thing — and this doesn't contradict with the fact that he tried to sign him before you mention this (who knows, maybe under Fergie's tutoring he would've fulfilled his potential to the fullest).

To quote Michael Cox:

It may be true, as Arrigo Sacchi once said, that Gerrard lacks "knowing-how-to-play football" in a tactical sense, and his versatility and evolution into a more attacking player created a strategic riddle various Liverpool managers took too long to solve. Nevertheless, in terms of the raw ingredients that create an excellent footballer, Gerrard ticked every box

Gerrard had all the tools to become a Matthäus-like figure (in a way that, say, Lampard never had), but ultimately failed to do so. He was still very, very good, but in the end he lacked tactical nous to secure that top level. It's also not a coincidence that most memorable of Gerrard's performances came in games where Liverpool had to come back from a disastrous start — in that situations tactics usually go out of the window and you rely on your mentality, grit and natural talent that Gerrard had in abundance.

I've tried to word that bit about the slip so that you wouldn't react that way, but maybe I failed to do so. He's had a very good season, but it was not world-class — he contributed a lot creatively, but his presence at the DM spot meant that Liverpool were very vulnerable defensively. The slip was just the most memorable moment that highlighted the exact weakness that was exploited by many managers & footballers before.

It's not a surprise that, for all Gerrard's all-roundness, his best seasons came when he was completely freed from any defensive responsibility by the tactics — so that the system didn't rely on him to keep his position, and all of his (rather substantial) defensive contribution came as a bonus. In a weird way this is a similar situation with Pogba with one huge exception — just like Gerrard, Pogba doesn't have the tactical nous to reliably position himself in the defensive phase of the game, but Gerrard always worked his ass off while Pogba is a lazy player to boot. Speaking of Gerrard in that slip-defined season it was very much like playing Pogba in a deep midfield role — you get all the additional creativity but you'll always suffer from their occasional brain farts.

Speaking of 2013/14, Liverpool conceded 50 goals in the league — more than City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Everton, Moyes' United, Southampton & Crystal Palace. And no other player is more symbolic to that gung-ho side than Gerrard (Suarez had a pretty much perfect season, while Liverpool did not) — creating tons of chances, scoring goals (mostly penalties though), but leaving his backline exposed as an anchor player in a midfield three.

Another Cox's article from 2013/14:

Gerrard's performance in Liverpool's 2-1 defeat to Arsenal demonstrated both the benefits and drawbacks of deploying him there. His distribution throughout was wonderful, although he received an incredible amount of time on the ball because Arsenal's most advanced midfielder, Mesut Özil, showed little interest in closing down the Liverpool captain. More hard-working attacking midfielders – Chelsea's Oscar or Ross Barkley of Everton, for example – would not have allowed Gerrard such freedom, and for long periods he was the game's most free player.

Without the ball, however, Gerrard was vulnerable. He appears uncomfortable defending against counterattacks, especially when opposition wide players come inside, as demonstrated by his booking for cynically fouling Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain towards the end of the first half, when he made no attempt to win the ball.

That caution handicapped Gerrard for the rest of the game, and he was fortunate not to be dismissed for a subsequent foul on Oxlade-Chamberlain in the left-back position, almost identical to his foul on the same player at Anfield last week, conceding a penalty in Liverpool's 5-1 victory. Much like Juventus's use of Andrea Pirlo in front of the defence, Gerrard's lack of defensive ability must be tolerated to accommodate his fine distribution.

As the last point, I'd also mention that we certainly have different standards of world-class. For me, he had 2 world-class seasons (and multiple very, very good ones) — in 2005/06 and in 2008/09. Unsurprisingly, under the most tactically adept manager that he had who moved him away from central midfield.

 

[SER19]

Every time these threads happen the same things occurs regarding players who have played for us. Some massively underrate because we often see the very best of overseas players and get to see domestic ones in poor form over more matches etc. We also see 'red tinted' accusation when surely the fact Scholes is on the list means there can be no such thing - they were all world class players.

Personally I've never seen a player influence how a team plays as much as Scholes at his best at United. Opponents couldn't get near him he made it look so so easy.

In terms of ranking, based on all round ability/influence , rather than just achievements in game id go

Iniesta
Scholes
Pirlo
Xavi
Modric
Gerrard
Lampard
Kroos

 

[ROFLUTION]

You can all hate me now, but for me Xavi was a bit boring and not as naturally skilful as say Scholes. Can't argue with his trophy cabinet though.

 

[Hammondo]

You can all hate me now, but for me Xavi was a bit boring and not as naturally skilful as say Scholes. Can't argue with his trophy cabinet though.

This is the problem with England as well, too many people focus on those things and not the core important things.

 

[TheLord]

Xavi
Iniesta

Pirlo = Lampard = Scholes = Modric

Gerrard
Kroos

 

[DeepSpace]

Iniesta
Scholes
Xavi
Gerrard
Modric
Kroos
Lampard
Pirlo

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Scholes
Xavi
Iniesta
Modric
Pirlo
Kroos
Lampard
Gerrard

 

[Dumbstar]

Xavi
Iniesta
Modric
Pirlo
Gerrard
Scholes
Kroos
Lampard

 

[hasanejaz88]

Lampard, Gerrard, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo, Modric, Kroos, Scholes.

Based on their ability, performances, peak, influences, achievement and overall.

Xavi
Iniesta
Scholes
Modric
Kroos
Pirlo
Lampard
Gerrard

 

[Champ]

Scholes and Pirlo then the rest

Pirlo was a class act and easily the most natural midfielder of his generation.

Hard to really state who was better though and the list given are all completely different players, for example if you wanted to dictate a game you would choose Scholes, Pirlo or Xavi, if you wanted goals you would choose Lampard and Gerrard etc.

 

[tenpoless]

Scholes
Xavi
Iniesta
Pirlo
Modric
Lampard
Kross
Phil Collins

 

[Canagel]

Iniesta
Pirlo
Modric
Xavi
Scholes
Kroos
Gerrard
Lampard

 

[Revan]

Ridiculous. Scholes is better than Modric and Pirlo, granted Iniesta and Xavi are a level above though.

Said no one who watched football outside of EPL.

Pirlo vs Scholes is not even particularly close.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Said no one who watched football outside of EPL.

Pirlo vs Scholes is not even particularly close.

Scholes achieved more than Pirlo, well at club level anyway. 2008 Scholes is better than any version of Pirlo.

Scholes as an attacking midfielder put up better stats than Pirlo as an attacking mid.

Scholes as a deep lying playmaker was better than Pirlo at the same position. Scholes could do what Pirlo did whilst being in a 2 man midfield, Pirlo had to be in a 3 man midfield to dictate the game like Scholes.

Look at all the quotes from managers and players at the top of the game, they all said Scholes is the best CM of his generation, which is funny considering Pirlo played at the same time.

Imagine being able to start your pro career as a striker and finish up playing deep in midfield while looking just as good in all of them positions.Not many players have ever done that like Scholes and still looked world class.

 

[Revan]

Scholes achieved more than Pirlo, well at club level anyway. 2008 Scholes is better than any version of Pirlo.

Scholes as an attacking midfielder put up better stats than Pirlo as an attacking mid.

Scholes as a deep lying playmaker was better than Pirlo at the same position. Scholes could do what Pirlo did whilst being in a 2 man midfield, Pirlo had to be in a 3 man midfield to dictate the game like Scholes.

Look at all the quotes from managers and players at the top of the game, they all said Scholes is the best CM of his generation, which is funny considering Pirlo played at the same time.

Imagine being able to start your pro career as a striker and finish up playing deep in midfield while looking just as good in all of them positions.Not many players have ever done that like Scholes and still looked world class.

Not true. Scholes in 2008 was essentially how Pirlo played for a decade, though Pirlo was even better.

Scholes won more league titles, they both won 2 UCLs but Pirlo was far more influential in either of them (Scholes was not that important in 1999). And then on national level, Scholes was meh, while Pirlo has been one of the best players.

Scholes scored more goals while he was playing as AM. When playing as a central midfielder, he didn't score more than 7 goals per season.

I genuinely think that he wasn't as good AM as Gerrard/Lampard and was nowhere as good as a CM compared to Xavi/Pirlo or even Modric. He still was world-class in both positions (something that I feel neither of the others would have been able to do), but he is massively overrated in this forum. For example, he was never one of our top 3 players, he was never important for England, and he never managed to get a single vote for Ballon D'Or (the only player on this list who never got a single vote, while all the others at least managed to be in top 10, some in top 3, and one won it).

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

Not the best of that list may be, but Frank Lampard was my dream midfielder. Incredible consistency, goals and phenomenal fitness. Injury proof.

 

[0le]

 

[RedDevilRoshi]

Xavi
Iniesta
Scholes
Pirlo
Modric
Gerrard
Lampard
Kroos

 

[redrobed]

Lampard, Gerrard, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo, Modric, Kroos, Scholes.

Based on their ability, performances, peak, influences, achievement and overall.

Scholesy Iniesta

Xavi

Pirlo Modric Kroos

Lampard

Gerrard

 

[Devil may care]

Iniesta
Pirlo
Xavi
Modric
Scholes
Kroos
Gerrard
Lampard

 

[Suedesi]

Lampard, Gerrard, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo, Modric, Kroos, Scholes.

Based on their ability, performances, peak, influences, achievement and overall.

Xavi
Iniesta
Pirlo
Kroos
Modric
Scholes
Gerrard
Lampard

Should be pretty straight forward no?

 

[Devil81]

Lampard, Gerrard, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo, Modric, Kroos, Scholes

Iniesta
Xavi
Modric
Scholes
Pirlo
Kroos
Gerrard
Lampard

The above Scholes have achieved incredible things as well as being on a technically level playing field with Scholesy. Kroos and Pirlo achieved amazing things but Scholes edges them talent wise and Gerrard and Lampard just don't belong in any of the others company in my opinion. Still both great players mind but the rest are the absolute elite.

 

[Devil81]

Is there a way we can take the average of each position voted and make an overall Caf 1 to 8?

 

[Suedesi]

Based on achievements, there's little argument:
Xavi - WC, 2 Euro Cups, 4CL + ton of national titles
Iniesta - WC, 2 Euro Cups, 4CL + ton of national titles
Pirlo - WC, 2CL + ton of national titles
Kroos - WC, 4CL + some national titles
Modric - 4CL + some national titles
Scholes -2 CL + ton of national titles
Gerrard - CL + some tins
Lampard - CL + ton of national titles

I'm putting Pirlo ahead of Kroos because I deem him a tad better and more influential. Kroos/Modric have about the same standing in the game.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Xavi
Iniesta
Modric
Pirlo
Scholes
Kroos
Gerrard
Lampard

This would be mine too on most days.

It's very close between Modric and Pirlo, though, could easily swap 'em around.

Feel a bit dirty not ranking Scholes higher, of course - but it is what it is. Plus, he's closer to Pirlo/Modric than he is to the bottom three.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Xavi
Iniesta
Modric
Pirlo
Gerrard
Scholes
Kroos
Lampard

 

[Hammondo]

Scholes achieved more than Pirlo, well at club level anyway. 2008 Scholes is better than any version of Pirlo.

Scholes as an attacking midfielder put up better stats than Pirlo as an attacking mid.

Scholes as a deep lying playmaker was better than Pirlo at the same position. Scholes could do what Pirlo did whilst being in a 2 man midfield, Pirlo had to be in a 3 man midfield to dictate the game like Scholes.

Look at all the quotes from managers and players at the top of the game, they all said Scholes is the best CM of his generation, which is funny considering Pirlo played at the same time.

Imagine being able to start your pro career as a striker and finish up playing deep in midfield while looking just as good in all of them positions.Not many players have ever done that like Scholes and still looked world class.

Scholes never dictated play like Pirlo did.

 

[Gio]

Xavi
Iniesta
Pirlo
Gerrard
Modric
Scholes
Kroos
Lampard

I don't agree with Sacchi because he was a great manager, I use this quote because I fully agree with it, but his opinion should hold more weight than mine. Fergie also said a similar thing — and this doesn't contradict with the fact that he tried to sign him before you mention this (who knows, maybe under Fergie's tutoring he would've fulfilled his potential to the fullest).

To quote Michael Cox:


Gerrard had all the tools to become a Matthäus-like figure (in a way that, say, Lampard never had), but ultimately failed to do so. He was still very, very good, but in the end he lacked tactical nous to secure that top level. It's also not a coincidence that most memorable of Gerrard's performances came in games where Liverpool had to come back from a disastrous start — in that situations tactics usually go out of the window and you rely on your mentality, grit and natural talent that Gerrard had in abundance.

I've tried to word that bit about the slip so that you wouldn't react that way, but maybe I failed to do so. He's had a very good season, but it was not world-class — he contributed a lot creatively, but his presence at the DM spot meant that Liverpool were very vulnerable defensively. The slip was just the most memorable moment that highlighted the exact weakness that was exploited by many managers & footballers before.

It's not a surprise that, for all Gerrard's all-roundness, his best seasons came when he was completely freed from any defensive responsibility by the tactics — so that the system didn't rely on him to keep his position, and all of his (rather substantial) defensive contribution came as a bonus. In a weird way this is a similar situation with Pogba with one huge exception — just like Gerrard, Pogba doesn't have the tactical nous to reliably position himself in the defensive phase of the game, but Gerrard always worked his ass off while Pogba is a lazy player to boot. Speaking of Gerrard in that slip-defined season it was very much like playing Pogba in a deep midfield role — you get all the additional creativity but you'll always suffer from their occasional brain farts.

Speaking of 2013/14, Liverpool conceded 50 goals in the league — more than City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Everton, Moyes' United, Southampton & Crystal Palace. And no other player is more symbolic to that gung-ho side than Gerrard (Suarez had a pretty much perfect season, while Liverpool did not) — creating tons of chances, scoring goals (mostly penalties though), but leaving his backline exposed as an anchor player in a midfield three.

Another Cox's article from 2013/14:


As the last point, I'd also mention that we certainly have different standards of world-class. For me, he had 2 world-class seasons (and multiple very, very good ones) — in 2005/06 and in 2008/09. Unsurprisingly, under the most tactically adept manager that he had who moved him away from central midfield.

Sacchi always had problems with individuals who won games by themselves. He was such a relentless collectivist that it's no surprise he distrusted various creatives over the years. As for 2013/14 that was the fag-end of Gerrard's career when he was nowhere near as mobile as the decade before. Cox's example simply does not reflect Gerrard the player whatsoever, as throughout his career his off-the-ball work and athleticism were exceptional. For example, here he is at DM at 20 for England against Germany:


Certainly had his share of brainfarts there, but I never really saw these issues that other have jumped onto in terms of what he did in the centre of midfield. In my view he suffered from poor management at times, where the midfields he played in were either under-manned (managers who were slow to adapt to the 3-man midfields that were commonplace from the early 2000s) or paired with the wrong (England) or weak (Liverpool) players.

 

[stefan92]

Is this even true though? Scholes adapted to a deeper role around 2007 ish. Kroos was 17 and didn't even make his first team debut for Bayern until then.

I think Scholes must have referred to his last one or two seasons, as he retired in 2013 while Kroos really become important for Bayern in 2011/12. Bayern reached two consecutive CL final in 2012 and 2013, so it makes sense that Scholes looked at that team and especially at Toni Kroos for inspiration.